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Old 09-21-2013, 09:01 PM   #21
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Lately I have had several discussions with local brokers, who in no uncertain terms told me if I asked for a discounted commission the boat would not sell because other brokers would steer their clients away. I had to laugh, however, because everyone of these guy was still willing to represent me. I firmly have come to believe as consumers of broker services we have to not be intimidated and negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. The more information we have about the dollar and cents involved, the better off we are.

I also have to ask this question: If a broker is worth 10%, why is he willing to split his commission with another broker and take 5%? I’m pretty sure most of these guys would balk at the idea of going to 5% on a single broker sale. Surely they are not taking less then they are worth. Lets face it, these guy don’t have enough skin in the game to be worth 10%. It’s our money -- let’s keep more of it, both buyers and sellers, especially since it’s the boat that sells itself.
I imagine it works just like real estate. If I list a boat with a broker and you come along with your broker and buy my boat, they split the commission. 5% to each broker, that is why he is willing/obligated to split. Brokers don't work for free. Now, you want them to get 2.5%! Good luck selling your boat without one and good luck buying one without one. They are a valuable tool when spending this kind of money IMO.
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:38 PM   #22
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IMO, most yacht brokers probably work harder than real estate agents. When people are making a huge purchase on something that is going to depreciate in value not increase like real estate, they are more inclined to kick a lot more tires. Most real estate commissions are around 6-7%. Therefore, I think 10% is not unreasonable. I imagine it is very difficult to sell a trawler of any value on your own. Do you want to meet every tire kicker on Saturday or Sunday at the docks? I doubt it. This is just a small part of what they do, necessary evil? I say just necessary? So, I wouldn't worry about what they pay, in the long run it is the quality and upkeep of your boat that helps it sell. Long story short, take care of your boat and make the broker's job easier.
Well said! When I sold my previous boat, the broker did everything to get it sold. All I had to do was sign some papers in exchange for a check.

Not having to show the boat to prospective buyers, to me, is priceless.
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:31 PM   #23
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YW charges us based on the number of listings. There are then additional charges for upgrades and other options. They also charge us per broker. The co-brokerage split is either 50/50 or 40/60 to selling broker. So as you can see the "big" commission on a 100k boat can quickly become 4k less all expenses. The split with the brokers and the house is often 50/50 so now it's 2K less cost to advertise/bond/insure/rent/utilities/computer/internet/phones/website/signage/postage/license/travel, etc. A 100k boat can quickly become a net loss for the brokerage.

I have had not so great boats that sold in weeks with just a few emails/calls and a sea trial and survey. On the other hand I just sold a very good boat that required 830 emails, yes that is not a typo. Untold dozens of hours on the phone, extensive travel etc. If you ever think this is an easy job then why are so many brokers just so darn good at it
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:39 PM   #24
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Well stated Daddyo and mirrors my previous experience selling real estate. I used to get a kick outta folks that wondered why I deserved so much money, yeah right. 6% typical commission split between 2 brokers and me as the agent getting 50-60% of our half (3%) on a $100,000 house. The only thing that kept me going was volume of sales, can only imagine the volume difference between homes and yachts it's a wonder yacht brokers survive at all IMO.
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:03 AM   #25
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The broker is probably more willing to split the 10 percent initially agreed upon than to split 6, 5, or 4 percent.

Devil's Advocate says: Let's say I am calling other brokers to find a boat to show a client. I find six 42-foot trawlers that look just about equally promising, based on what my client has in mind. Five of them are listed at a 10% commission, so depending on the specific split arrangement I will wind up with 4, 5, or 6% of the sale price as commission to the selling broker. (If I don't own the brokerage, I'll split half of that 4, 5, or 6% with "the house"). One of the six is listed at a 5% commission, so depending on the specific split arrangement I will wind up with 2, 2.5, or 3% of the selling price as commission to the selling broker- and if I don't own the brokerage I will split half of that lesser amount with "the house".

Question: Of the six boats identified as possibly suitable for the buyer, which boat do you suppose will be shown only as the "last resort"?
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:15 AM   #26
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I broke my promise. The Bayliner Owners Club forum has been down for past 3 days, and out of boredom of nowhere to yak, I came back over here to look around, and saw this thread. In the same way I help blind people out of the street, I just had to come back and straighten ya'll out a bit. First of all, I'm pretty damn sure Yachtworld has different pricing plans for different brokerages. They keep those cards pretty close to their chest. I used to pay almost $600.00 a month before I dropped them 4 years ago. None of my actual closings were coming from them, so why not. I haven't looked back. I'm not even going into what PRINT ADS used to cost before the Internet. Or what slips cost at boat shows for us to be there year after year waiting for "Bob to retire, or you win the lotto", but we're there, and Bob usually died two weeks after he retired, and none won the lotto, but no problem. Enjoyed meeting you the first 10 years. BUT I'm ALWAYS here to answer the phone, answer your questions about boats I know you're never going to buy from me. Listen to you vent about wives, children, the economy, NO PROBLEM, I give as good as I get. BUT let's talk about this 10%. Do you realize that it's been that since the days before Jesus? No changes in all these years. It's NOT our expenses your paying for it's our TIME. In the same way you know it doesn't cost what Doctors charge you for a visit, but your paying for them TO BE THERE WHEN YOU NEED them. Same thing. You're paying for the dead time. I'm sitting here uploading old full page print ads on to my site, looking at all the boats, and memories of all come flooding back. Lots of years filling my head with absolute WORTHLESS knowledge to 99.99.999% of the world, but by god, if you have a question about the construction of a boat most have long forgot about, or (as I'm always asked) "How many of a particular boat did they make, and what was good/bad about it, and what did it cost?" I have the answer, and maybe even some photos. "Can you help me find dockage, repair guys, captains, girlfriends, surveyors, Insurance?". Yep, got the Rolodex of experts right here.
Now back to this 10% I travel quite extensively on MY DIME for my clients, fly up to Michigan, NY, Washington State, Vancouver to see (basically give a free survey) your boats. I now have 84k miles on my 09 Grand Caravan I bought new in 8/09- owned by the business JUST for business- driving to California twice, Syracuse, Boston, Texas, (heck it's over 350 miles just to reach I-10 to turn left!) but you know what HAS gone up? GASOLINE, HOTELS, AIRFARE, Restaurants, about everything you can imagine has gone up. YET, our commissions are still 10%. Probably will have to buy a new van pretty soon.
I've had many clients tell me after trying to sell their boats themselves, after dealing with wacko's who've repeatedly shown up, that brokers aren't charging enough commission for what they've had to go through. We're the buffer. We take the shit so the deal will go through. Hate us, but the deal goes through. YOU negotiate between a Jewish Attorney from NYC, and a Redneck from NC! See if you can put it together.
Also unlike Real Estate we don't have anywhere near the volume (although in South Florida it's about gone too) of inventory. In fact late model boats which is what's ALWAYS been the profit in this business is about gone. Not many boats built since 08, so we have a quickly shrinking pool of inventory. Can't make any money if you don't have any boats to sell.

The GREAT news for all you people that don't want to pay the commission, there's now venues from Free (Craigs List) to Ebay that's pretty damn cheap for you to sell yourself with NO commissions.. Whoo hoo you!

I won't go into the out and out outlaws I've had to deal with here, but Google up "Joe Cool" and see what out's there. A lady Broker from Bertram was found dead in trunk of a car in MIA, years back. I had some Mexican drug cartel guys show up here last year that even gave me a scare, and I'm used to them. The Poodle is my spirit animal. I was at Maule Lake Marina during the 80's-early 90's. Next time you watch the movie Cocaine Cowboy's you'll see it. Good times.
So I think we should RAISE our commissions to what Attorneys, and Art Dealers get. Nah, that isn't going to happen, We'll 'eat' the losses, and just write it off on our Income Tax. 10% is ALWAYS just 10%! You get 90% of what we bring you don't you? Still love boats though. I came into this as an Artist straight out of college because I liked the designs, and boating. Didn't come into it for the money. Didn't grow up with any, so never knew what I was missing. Use of TIME my focus. Rather be out boating, biking, or skiing than stacking cheese. It all worked out ok. I really enjoy MY clients as most all are successful FUN people who made their money with the sweat of their brow, or being creative. I Like the Kiwi's and Aussies so much, I'm going to move there "when I win the lotto".
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Old 09-22-2013, 02:37 AM   #27
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I broke my promise. The Bayliner Owners Club forum has been down for past 3 days, and out of boredom of nowhere to yak, I came back over here to look around, and saw this thread. In the same way I help blind people out of the street, I just had to come back and straighten ya'll out a bit. First of all, I'm pretty damn sure Yachtworld has different pricing plans for different brokerages. They keep those cards pretty close to their chest. I used to pay almost $600.00 a month before I dropped them 4 years ago. None of my actual closings were coming from them, so why not. I haven't looked back. I'm not even going into what PRINT ADS used to cost before the Internet. Or what slips cost at boat shows for us to be there year after year waiting for "Bob to retire, or you win the lotto", but we're there, and Bob usually died two weeks after he retired, and none won the lotto, but no problem. Enjoyed meeting you the first 10 years. BUT I'm ALWAYS here to answer the phone, answer your questions about boats I know you're never going to buy from me. Listen to you vent about wives, children, the economy, NO PROBLEM, I give as good as I get. BUT let's talk about this 10%. Do you realize that it's been that since the days before Jesus? No changes in all these years. It's NOT our expenses your paying for it's our TIME. In the same way you know it doesn't cost what Doctors charge you for a visit, but your paying for them TO BE THERE WHEN YOU NEED them. Same thing. You're paying for the dead time. I'm sitting here uploading old full page print ads on to my site, looking at all the boats, and memories of all come flooding back. Lots of years filling my head with absolute WORTHLESS knowledge to 99.99.999% of the world, but by god, if you have a question about the construction of a boat most have long forgot about, or (as I'm always asked) "How many of a particular boat did they make, and what was good/bad about it, and what did it cost?" I have the answer, and maybe even some photos. "Can you help me find dockage, repair guys, captains, girlfriends, surveyors, Insurance?". Yep, got the Rolodex of experts right here.
Now back to this 10% I travel quite extensively on MY DIME for my clients, fly up to Michigan, NY, Washington State, Vancouver to see (basically give a free survey) your boats. I now have 84k miles on my 09 Grand Caravan I bought new in 8/09- owned by the business JUST for business- driving to California twice, Syracuse, Boston, Texas, (heck it's over 350 miles just to reach I-10 to turn left!) but you know what HAS gone up? GASOLINE, HOTELS, AIRFARE, Restaurants, about everything you can imagine has gone up. YET, our commissions are still 10%. Probably will have to buy a new van pretty soon.
I've had many clients tell me after trying to sell their boats themselves, after dealing with wacko's who've repeatedly shown up, that brokers aren't charging enough commission for what they've had to go through. We're the buffer. We take the shit so the deal will go through. Hate us, but the deal goes through. YOU negotiate between a Jewish Attorney from NYC, and a Redneck from NC! See if you can put it together.
Also unlike Real Estate we don't have anywhere near the volume (although in South Florida it's about gone too) of inventory. In fact late model boats which is what's ALWAYS been the profit in this business is about gone. Not many boats built since 08, so we have a quickly shrinking pool of inventory. Can't make any money if you don't have any boats to sell.

The GREAT news for all you people that don't want to pay the commission, there's now venues from Free (Craigs List) to Ebay that's pretty damn cheap for you to sell yourself with NO commissions.. Whoo hoo you!

I won't go into the out and out outlaws I've had to deal with here, but Google up "Joe Cool" and see what out's there. A lady Broker from Bertram was found dead in trunk of a car in MIA, years back. I had some Mexican drug cartel guys show up here last year that even gave me a scare, and I'm used to them. The Poodle is my spirit animal. I was at Maule Lake Marina during the 80's-early 90's. Next time you watch the movie Cocaine Cowboy's you'll see it. Good times.
So I think we should RAISE our commissions to what Attorneys, and Art Dealers get. Nah, that isn't going to happen, We'll 'eat' the losses, and just write it off on our Income Tax. 10% is ALWAYS just 10%! You get 90% of what we bring you don't you? Still love boats though. I came into this as an Artist straight out of college because I liked the designs, and boating. Didn't come into it for the money. Didn't grow up with any, so never knew what I was missing. Use of TIME my focus. Rather be out boating, biking, or skiing than stacking cheese. It all worked out ok. I really enjoy MY clients as most all are successful FUN people who made their money with the sweat of their brow, or being creative. I Like the Kiwi's and Aussies so much, I'm going to move there "when I win the lotto".
Dear Sir,

You are no doctor, attorney or dentist. You Are a middle man. You chose your profession. According to the laws of creative destruction and capitalism you will thrive or fail upon the will of the market....so be it.
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Old 09-22-2013, 02:42 AM   #28
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I imagine it works just like real estate. If I list a boat with a broker and you come along with your broker and buy my boat, they split the commission. 5% to each broker, that is why he is willing/obligated to split. Brokers don't work for free. Now, you want them to get 2.5%! Good luck selling your boat without one and good luck buying one without one. They are a valuable tool when spending this kind of money IMO.
I do not think you reading my post correctly. If you are willing to take 5% in a split. Why are you worth 10% with no split.
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Old 09-22-2013, 03:00 AM   #29
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Just curious. Did you represent yourself when buying your boat or use a brokers services?
No, there were no brokers involved in the purchase of my vessel, and I would not sell it via broker if possible in my circumstances. Do not misunderstand me however, I think brokers deserve adequate compensation just not 10% in MANY cases. A marketplace is fair when buyers and sellers can haggle, not when brokers act in collusion through reginal assoations.
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Old 09-22-2013, 03:08 AM   #30
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Well said! When I sold my previous boat, the broker did everything to get it sold. All I had to do was sign some papers in exchange for a check.

Not having to show the boat to prospective buyers, to me, is priceless.
If you have that kind of cash to throw away, good for you. In a previous life I once had a boss that was fond of saying if you saw $100 on the ground would you pick it up?
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Old 09-22-2013, 03:18 AM   #31
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I do not think you reading my post correctly. If you are willing to take 5% in a split. Why are you worth 10% with no split.
If I may intone:

You (we) get (pay for) what the market will bear!

One magic of capitalism is that it provides a broad span of "automatic equalization", i.e. a self regulating game that forces the leveling of costs in most financial arenas. That is why "corrections" happen when a sector of the market gets too heated, i.e. out of balance (caught up in a bubble... as they say!) regarding its true value at time of occurrences. Point in fact the housing market and stock market corrections (bubbles) of recent years. And, oh by the way... we’ve not seen the end of that debacle – yet!

If the market would bear a boat broker getting 15% then that is what they would set their commission at... therefore, if they had to split commission with another broker they would each get 7.5%. But in today’s marine sales climate market reality has kept the brokers’ commissions at 10% with no increase for years... even while boat prices have decreased; which is not a good deal for hardworking boat brokers. Reality of all of capitalism’s markets’ automatic equalization "regulating game" is as I mentioned at beginning... “We get (pay for) what the market will bear!”
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Old 09-22-2013, 03:37 AM   #32
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If I may intone:

You (we) get (pay for) what the market will bear!

One magic of capitalism is that it provides a broad span of "automatic equalization", i.e. a self regulating game that forces the leveling of costs in most financial arenas. That is why "corrections" happen when a sector of the market gets too heated, i.e. out of balance (caught up in a bubble... as they say!) regarding its true value at time of occurrences. Point in fact the housing market and stock market corrections (bubbles) of recent years. And, oh by the way... we’ve not seen the end of that debacle – yet!

If the market would bear a boat broker getting 15% then that is what they would set their commission at... therefore, if they had to split commission with another broker they would each get 7.5%. But in today’s marine sales climate market reality has kept the brokers’ commissions at 10% with no increase for years... even while boat prices have decreased; which is not a good deal for hardworking boat brokers. Reality of all of capitalism’s markets’ automatic equalization "regulating game" is as I mentioned at beginning... “We get (pay for) what the market will bear!”
In the Information Age, commissions for middle men have generally gone down. I.E. stock brokers, with the advent of online brokerages, and real estate agents with Redfin and Zillow. Why should the commission rate increase as technology and sites such as Yachtwold make them more productive and their job easier?
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Old 09-22-2013, 04:17 AM   #33
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:52 AM   #34
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If you have that kind of cash to throw away, good for you. In a previous life I once had a boss that was fond of saying if you saw $100 on the ground would you pick it up?
One doesn't have to have plenty of cash to see the value of a boat broker. To me, they are well worth what they charge for relieving me of the things that I would have to do to sell a boat. I even gave my broker cash when I bought my current boat, even though he was getting a share of the selling broker's commission. I gave him 10% of the difference between the asking price and the final sale price. I didn't think that it made sense that his commission would be cut as he negotiated a better price for me, so I proposed to him the 10% deal when I asked him to represent me.

A 10% commission is not cheap but reasonable, even if they don't split it with another broker.
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:11 AM   #35
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I broke my promise.
Huh?
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:29 PM   #36
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A good and honest broker is worth his weight in gold.

We have worked with several over the years, and have really only had one bad experience :ie... looked at a boat, came to a deal, did the survey, found out lots of problems, requested new deal with paperwork listing all the problems with pricing to repair said problems, no reduction in price, so no deal.

At this point, we say, too bad for us, but that's the way it goes, even though we had spent thousands of dollars on travel, hotels and surveys.

The sour taste in our mouth came when we saw the listing go back up with no changes: ie no recognition that there were any problems with the boat and now the broker is, I assume, hoping for a new sucker to come along and spend money checking for problems that he definitely now knows exist but isn't telling anyone about!

Not a broker worth any amount to me!
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:52 PM   #37
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Many people here have made statements about WHY it is advantageous to use a broker in which I am very much in agreement with. My concern is am I getting value at 10%. Let me pose the following questions.

1. Why not use a flat fee. Do you really work twice as hard selling a 100K boat verses a 200K boat? Or does the 200K boats subsidize the 100K boat?

2. For those who think brokers should make more, isn’t the fact you are paid via percentage mean your commission is automatically adjusted for inflation? In real dollars are you not making the same as you made 20 years ago? Have sights like Yachtworld not made you job easier?
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:02 PM   #38
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Would someone please tell us what an average is for $ paid to a broker
for hours worked selling a $500k boat.
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:20 PM   #39
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They aren't all $500,000 boats, some are under $100,000 (a lot under) and the broker has to work just as hard, if not harder, to sell one of those as the more expensive models. Sometimes the broker has a lot less to do with the listing than they wish, the seller has the final word on how the vessel is listed. My broker worked his butt off, the seller was unrealistic in his asking price, and the broker commiserated with me over how unreasonable the seller was. I worked with him for over three months before my purchase went through, couldn't begin to guess how many phone calls and e-mails, and would go back to him without hesitation if I ever do it again. The closing date moved 7 times over 6 weeks, and his company made less than $5000 off all of their effort. He tried to steer me to a different vessel because the seller was so unreasonable, but I wanted THAT hull, not something else. That's how we wound up with a vessel on the East coast, shipped to the West coast, and still under the asking price of the other vessel available. My broker was worth every dime he earned (key word, earned) and I felt guilty about how hard he had to work for the little he earned. People who buy expensive boats are probably easier to deal with than people who are scraping every dime they can together to make a purchase...
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Old 09-22-2013, 02:53 PM   #40
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While the internet is a great tool, most brokers MUST advertise their presence and offerings in print , which is very costly.

Boat shows are a must for a broker with new product to sell.

And then there are the Lookey Lous , that can take 7 days a week of severe effort just to avoid.
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