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Old 04-30-2015, 08:13 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by kwmeyer13 View Post
It seems that there are several types of people here, those that have no problem handing over their hard earned money regardless of the outcome, those that think people should be paid regardless of the outcome, and those that think it is acceptable to ask questions and withhold handing over money until concerns they have are explained. What you do is your choice. I for one would not pay someone to sit in a car and do nothing. Nor would I pay someone for mistakes that they made that would wind up costing me money. I also would not pay someone that was on my boat for several hours and could not diagnose and or fix a problem.

Curiosity really has gotten the best of me based on some of the responses in this thread so here goes nothing.
ksanders do you truly feel the way your responses sound? I am asking because its hard to read into someone's tone or mindset based on typing. To me it comes across as someone being full of themselves. I say that because you stated your clients should pay you even if you make mistakes regardless of what it costs them. Those are your words not mine. You also say that "I have to be careful here and try to separate what I do for a living, Vs what people pay for in a tradesperson on their boat." What is it that you do for a living? Inquirering minds would like to know.
I would bet a large sum of money that a lot of people reading this thread are thinking what I am.
The title of you thread is "why pay a mechanic to sit in his car?" You still have not said if you saw the guy sitting in his car. Did you see the guy sitting in his car for 1.5 hours? How far away is the mechanics shop from your slip/yard? Is it possible he got stuck in traffic? (bay area resident here).
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:24 PM   #62
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Mr. ks. So you're the guy I should talk to about my lights flickering and the dog barking when my toilet flushes eh?
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:54 PM   #63
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Bligh you quote my post and then ask me if I saw the guy sitting in his car. May I ask you why are you asking me if I saw the guy. I am not the O.P. I am simply responding to what has been stated by the person that started this thread (his time line and dollar amounts) and the people that have responded to it. As far as traffic is concerned not to many places top the New York Metro area and Long Island.
ksanders before I posted my replies I made sure to read several times everything I commented on. In fact I just went back and re-read everything again. Seriously, you think its acceptable to bill because you made a mistake and had to get parts. Then to assume that if they use someone else that does not charge as much that they will screw it up and then they will be forced to call you to straighten it all out. I am sorry to say, to me that just comes across as arrogance.
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Old 04-30-2015, 09:32 PM   #64
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I think it is reasonable to ask about the wait time at the dock but it sounds like they were up front about their charging practices and more important to me would be if they did good work and would I use them again? Since you were not overwhelmed by the total and felt good about the service and outcome and if you feel you would use them again then I would just pay the bill and at least feel good that I had a good "go to" service that I could count on and just be aware of the time required on any future service calls.
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Old 04-30-2015, 10:19 PM   #65
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Bligh you quote my post and then ask me if I saw the guy sitting in his car. May I ask you why are you asking me if I saw the guy. I am not the O.P. I am simply responding to what has been stated by the person that started this thread (his time line and dollar amounts) and the people that have responded to it. As far as traffic is concerned not to many places top the New York Metro area and Long Island.
ksanders before I posted my replies I made sure to read several times everything I commented on. In fact I just went back and re-read everything again. Seriously, you think its acceptable to bill because you made a mistake and had to get parts. Then to assume that if they use someone else that does not charge as much that they will screw it up and then they will be forced to call you to straighten it all out. I am sorry to say, to me that just comes across as arrogance.
Sorry i got you confused with the OP!

What if the supplier screwed up the parts order and not the mechanic?
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Old 04-30-2015, 10:52 PM   #66
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I must say when I started this thread I did not expect this much discussion. It has been interesting to read the different "camps" if you will.

For those that care, I called the owner to discuss, the call went to voice mail, I left a short message saying I had a question about the 4.5 hour time and the rain comment and I would like to discuss it with him, 20 minutes later I received an email with a new invoice. The text in the email said;

"Your revised invoice is attached. Rob adjusted 1 hr. for rain (sorry, he didn't notice that on the original invoice.)"

To be honest I would have rather been able to discuss it with him just so I hear his tone and read his voice and for him to be able to hear my tone, knowing I'm not coming across as accusatory. I don't want to come across as "whining" I just want to discuss it. There is a huge difference between "discussing" an invoice and "complaining" or "accusing" a wrong doing about an invoice, based on some of the comments in this thread there are several folks that do not understand there is a difference. I don't care if an invoice is $2 or $100,000 if I have a question or don't understand a charge I'm going to ask to discuss it, I'm shocked there are folks out there that don't.

If I did not make it clear in my post, I'm not upset or mad at them, I certainly don't feel like they are trying to rip me off, (and no I'm not "complaining" about the bill as someone posted) I just simply had a question, being a newbie in the boating industry I just want to see what the norm was. Obviously by reading this thread there is no norm.

As for the 1.5 hours charged for the wrong seal, I'm just going to let it go, not worth the trouble to me or him, I'm satisfied with total cost of the project, the total was a fair price for work completed.

I'm going to move on from this incident, I hope the rest of you can too.

I need to get to bed, I have an 8 hour drive to the boat tomorrow... going to paint some cabinets and work on installing my air conditioners, it's going to be a great weekend!!!!
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:00 PM   #67
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One more thing, I just wanted to thank Ksanders for his posts, I enjoyed them, I certainly don't agree with all that you say but I truly appreciate your candor.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:14 PM   #68
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Bligh you quote my post and then ask me if I saw the guy sitting in his car. May I ask you why are you asking me if I saw the guy. I am not the O.P. I am simply responding to what has been stated by the person that started this thread (his time line and dollar amounts) and the people that have responded to it. As far as traffic is concerned not to many places top the New York Metro area and Long Island.
ksanders before I posted my replies I made sure to read several times everything I commented on. In fact I just went back and re-read everything again. Seriously, you think its acceptable to bill because you made a mistake and had to get parts. Then to assume that if they use someone else that does not charge as much that they will screw it up and then they will be forced to call you to straighten it all out. I am sorry to say, to me that just comes across as arrogance.
Wait a minute, now you are calling me arrogant.

Be careful that is thin ice you are treading on. This has been a very polite thread up to this point.

Yes I have spent many a day straighting out the work of others. Fortunately mty current contract has some very competent people on it. That has not always been the case though.

Like boat work, my field has some folks that do not do the highest quality work. Relating this back to boat work, I think that good skilled professional tradespeople often clean up the work of others.

As far as being arrogant... Well I graduated from college in 1982. That was a very long time ago. Since then I have only done one thing, every single day for 33 years. I have attended so many recurrent training schools I cannot count. Yes I am confident that I can hold my own in pretty much any company. If that is arrogant, I am guilty as charged.

When you reach my stage in life having spent a lifetime in your field I hope you are good enough and confident enough for someone to call you arrogant as well.

BTW, I just had a hip replacement in january. My hip surgeon is one of the best o the west coast. An arrogant guy for sure. I am super glad I hired him as opposed to some mediocure surgeon. Yes I like arrogant.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:16 PM   #69
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Well handled Talonewo, if I may say so. Just a matter of a human applying themselves to the computer generated bill before hitting send.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:23 PM   #70
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... In general recreational boaters are some of the cheapest people walking the planet. They, in general want to pay as little as humanly possible, and again in general, will micro analyze a bill for labor and parts to the minutest detail possible. They apply workplace standards to their service providers that if those standards were applied to them by their employers they would be up in arms with the unfairness of it all.

I do not know why its like that, and its not all boaters. I honestly think that many recreational boaters are in over their heads with their boats and the costs associated with them. Perhaps thats why they are the way they are.
I think you hit the hammer on the head right there Kevin. There are wealthy boaters, for whom money is no object…then there are the rest of us. We aren't mean-minded in principle, but just love our boating so much we want to keep doing it, but the costs are considerable, the budget always under strain. So we manage to keep going by being very diligent with what we spend, doing as much as we can ourselves, delegating to the experts what we can't, but in doing so have to strive for the best value for money we can get.

In my next incarnation I am not going to be a damned GP, so I can afford a much nicer newer boat…what's that line of business you're in? - sounds good...
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:28 PM   #71
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Talonewo,
I re-read your OP. I would certainly question the wrong part and I would feel that since he ordered the part from his supplier, he or the supplier is responsible the getting the right part. If not, his time should be paid for my the supplier.

That in fact is one of the main reasons, one pays for a job from beginning to end and let's them order what they need as it is then their responsibility.

Only if you provided the part, would you are responsible for his time.
Kevin,

Your comment,
As far as being arrogant... Well I graduated from college in 1982. That was a very long time ago. Since then I have only done one thing, every single day for 33 years.
begs the real quyestion that avid readers want to know:

There is only one thing I have done for the last 33 years every day. How the hell do you get paid for it
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:40 PM   #72
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Kevin, Your comment,
As far as being arrogant... Well I graduated from college in 1982. That was a very long time ago. Since then I have only done one thing, every single day for 33 years.
begs the real quyestion that avid readers want to know:

There is only one thing I have done for the last 33 years every day. How the hell do you get paid for it
Richard he did answer our question re that in his post 60 P3. I did not see it either…but it sounds sort of complex…so in my next incarnation I might not do that after all. (See post 70 above)
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:04 AM   #73
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Kevin,

Your comment,
As far as being arrogant... Well I graduated from college in 1982. That was a very long time ago. Since then I have only done one thing, every single day for 33 years.
begs the real quyestion that avid readers want to know:

There is only one thing I have done for the last 33 years every day. How the hell do you get paid for it
They've been waiting a long time for me to finiish that one thing I keep stringing them along with "oh I forgot the part" and "It was cold and rainy so I sat in my truck all day"
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:30 AM   #74
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"That's why I could never hold a person working on my boat to a higher standard than i have been able to achieve with a lifetime of practice."
No, you're not full of your self....is that your idea of a humble statement?
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:28 AM   #75
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Talonewo, it seems to me that the owner knows that you are in the right and you should never have been billed the way you were. Further more I think he is hoping to placate you by knocking one hour off the bill. The fact that he did not call back and speak to you about this tells me that this is not a person I would want to do business with regardless of the outcome. I just don't see it as good business. However, if you are happy with the outcome then that is all that matters, no need to .
Have a good time working on the boat this weekend.


ksanders this was not as polite of a thread as you seem to think. People jumped on Talonewo and told him to stop whining, other people were called cheap, and some said that this was his own fault. All the man did was ask a few questions about his bill. As for what I said, I was simply voicing my opinion about the subject at hand and the responses. I am sorry if you don't like my point of view.
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:08 AM   #76
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Aha Talonewo, a 1978 DeFever. Tell us about this classic that helped to spawn great pleasure trawlers built with Art's tricks to this day.
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:22 AM   #77
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They've been waiting a long time for me to finish that one thing I keep stringing them along with "oh I forgot the part" and "It was cold and rainy so I sat in my truck all day"
Oh, you're talking about working on boats

When you said you did it every day; I was thinking of something else, as in Shirley and her four sisters

THis thread had gotten too serious for me.
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:14 AM   #78
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Guys the dynamic of this thread has changed, and not for the better.

I'll take the blame for that. I inserted my work practices and tried to use them to show how I deal with people that work on my boat.

So far I've been called Arrogant and not humble. Honestly in my work I am both of those things and I will not apologize for those traits.

When I approach an issue professionally my customers want confidence. They want to know that in no uncertain terms that I will be able to solve their issue and either get or keep them up and running. A lack of confidence or wavering on my part will be sensed by my very intelligent customers and result in them questioning whether I am the expert they need to solve the problem at hand. That confidence or as some would call arrogance may sound offensive to some but it is highly effective in certain professions.

When you go to your doctor you want to hear "you'll be fine" not "oh...well...never seen this before...you might die". When you go to a lawyer you want to hear "I'm really good at this and I will kick the other sides butt" not "sorry dude never had a case like this before you might just be screwed". When I walk in my customer wants to hear "I'll have you up and running right away" not "oh crap, never seen one of these before...don't know f I can fix it".

So, if I am done feeling like I have to defend myself on TF because I was stupid enough to share parts of my professional life, I think I'll get back to boating...
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:27 AM   #79
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Guys the dynamic of this thread has changed, and not for the better.

I'll take the blame for that. I inserted my work practices and tried to use them to show how I deal with people that work on my boat.

So far I've been called Arrogant and not humble. Honestly in my work I am both of those things and I will not apologize for those traits.

When I approach an issue professionally my customers want confidence. They want to know that in no uncertain terms that I will be able to solve their issue and either get or keep them up and running. A lack of confidence or wavering on my part will be sensed by my very intelligent customers and result in them questioning whether I am the expert they need to solve the problem at hand. That confidence or as some would call arrogance may sound offensive to some but it is highly effective in certain professions.

When you go to your doctor you want to hear "you'll be fine" not "oh...well...never seen this before...you might die". When you go to a lawyer you want to hear "I'm really good at this and I will kick the other sides butt" not "sorry dude you're screwed". When I walk in my customer wants to hear "I'll have you up and running right away" not "oh crap, never seen one of these before...don't know f I can fix it".

So, if I am done feeling like I have to defend myself on TF because I was stupid enough to share parts of my professional life, I think I'll get back to boating...
I'm with ya! Like Tom Skeritt says in the movie Top Gun..."I like arrogance in a pilot".....

All my life I have tried to soar with the eagles...arrogance is one of the drawbacks of being good enough you are always in demand. A touch of it tells the story and brings out the curious...too much of it can be a drawback.

Now Kevin....where am I staying for Silver season...I stop my towing job this fall and I'm starting to tie flies again...
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:20 PM   #80
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Well Kevin,

We Alaskans seem to see the world a little different than most folks and some would say we are arrogant and self-serving. Yet these are the same folks that think Alaska is still a territory and located somewhere in the gulf of Mexico because that is where the weather report shows it....
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