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Old 03-23-2016, 10:23 PM   #21
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A lot of boat for the $.
The space between cabins reminds me of Royal Barges used by royalty.
The wood burner would be an oddity here, but I`ve seen it in the UK. Strange at first seeing smoke coming from a chimney on a boat, often alongside and dried out, in a UK port.
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Better exterior pictures here:

1979 Lyman Morse 52' Down East Cruiser Title

We are shopping. I for sure would go look at her if I was closer. Might go anyway. I like her oddness.
Thanks for that link! That is one of the prettiest hulls I've ever seen.

But the drawing in that listing is clearly for a different boat - it has a galley up and an extra stateroom forward. And the well deck is longer. And it has something in that aft cabin with a pull out berth of the port side. Curious.

I like the roll-up insect screens. But I'm not sure about the sit-stand lower helm station. The two networked Garmin MFDs look to be a decent size, and those thruster controls are not very old. And there's the sat-TV dome (though the other thread here serves as a caution for their obsolescence).
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:09 AM   #23
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Greetings,
Mr. bp. "Why don't brokers post photos of..." Indeed. Mechanical photos show exactly how much TLC she actually needs IMO.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:11 AM   #24
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TLC of course can mean years. I have a friend who had to have what he described as a "heavy duty" sailboat. He ended up buying a 43-foot Slocum, which has the same dimensions as my 2006 Beneteau 423. Of course his boat weighs 40 percent more. He felt that such a boat ideal. Meanwhile, seven or eight years later, he is still getting it just right for an Atlantic crossing. Today, he is thinking about re-powering as a last task before leaving.

He has worked on the boat nearly everyday. He does first-class work and the boat is a good one, but he was working on the boat, not sailing it. Meanwhile, in 2006 I bought my boat new, have sailed to Trinidad and back, down the ICW, the Bahamas and all over the Chesapeake. Of course I have lost have the boat's value in the past 10 years, but I got out of her what I planned- trouble free boating and lots of fun. For my friend, he seemed to add two items to his to-do list for every item that he struck off.

So I am a little wary when I see a boat that needs "TLC."

Also, I often wonder about the quality question, and perhaps I need my eyes and attitude calibrated. I look at Grand Banks, for example and don't see anything that is many more quality than on many other boats, that are part of the "not-so-quality" boat brigade. Is it merely cache, or are Grand Banks, Kady Krogens and DeFevers really better quality? I spent two weeks with a friend on his 48 KK and thought it a fine boat, but other than gelcoat quality, don't think it is significantly high quality that the OA I am preparing to close on.

I am probably missing something and am guessing that I am going to get a whole bunch of correction/direction, and for that I thank you in advance.

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Old 03-24-2016, 12:07 PM   #25
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Also, I often wonder about the quality question, and perhaps I need my eyes and attitude calibrated. I look at Grand Banks, for example and don't see anything that is many more quality than on many other boats, that are part of the "not-so-quality" boat brigade. Is it merely cache, or are Grand Banks, Kady Krogens and DeFevers really better quality? I spent two weeks with a friend on his 48 KK and thought it a fine boat, but other than gelcoat quality, don't think it is significantly high quality that the OA I am preparing to close on.
There are two types of quality. The first is manufacturing quality as would be accessed by quality control and by the type materials used and the workmanship but only from a manufacturer's viewpoint. Then there is perceived quality. That's what sells. That's what is important from a marketing standpoint.

We all view quality differently. To a Nordhavn purchaser it is design and ability to handle rough seas. To a Bayliss purchaser it's the performance and fishing capabilities.

If you're talking workmanship in terms of finish, there may be little difference between the boats you mentioned. In terms of materials used, the GB traditionally did have a lot of teak and nicely finished quality wood. If you talk hull design, each of the four boats mentioned strives for something different.

Ultimately, quality to you is likely how well it meets your desired purpose. For someone to just say boat A is better quality than boat B means nothing. One can say, boat A performs better or handles rough seas better or had a better gelcoat or finish or has nicer countertops in the galley and heads. Then that says something. Or one can say boat A's hull holds up better, has fewer water intrusions.

Boaters, as a group are humorous. One will talk negatively about many of the older Taiwanese boats, saying they have too much fiberglass and they're heavy and plodding and have poor performance. The other will say, they're great because they're sturdy boats, and the ones that are bad are the boats with thinner hulls or cored from the waterline up or just not having as much material in their structure so weighing far less.

What year and the production facility become important on many of the boats mentioned above.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:54 PM   #26
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BandB,

Thanks. I think we are in violent agreement. I only mentioned it here because a poster mentioned the obvious quality of the Lymann Morse, and it got me thinking of the bigger picture.

I often think that the difference in "perceived" quality often has a lot to do with price. And when people pay dearly, they tend to treat it better, take better care of it than a cheaper model. So, the boats with high initial prices are better cared for and hold their value better.

And of course all of us have to answer the question about how much of this perceived quality are we willing to pay for.

And you mention GB having lots of quality wood. Now I am now expert on wood working - a long shot from it - but I often have a difficult time telling whether one type of cabinet making is superior than another. Perhaps it is noticeable between a real top brand and a real bottom feeder.

I guess in general is that I cringe when I hear people use the term quality in connection with boats because I never know what they are talking about and I wonder if they know as well.

my $.02
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:30 PM   #27
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Oh man, what a heartbreaker. That sheerline! That long sweeping foredeck! what a beauty.
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Old 03-25-2016, 05:06 AM   #28
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For someone that wants to venture offshore the prime concern is SCANTLINGS.

The hull , deck and all the rest must be strong enough to have a breaking wave hit the vessel,climb aboard, perhaps for hours .

Or for the boat to be picked up and tossed on her beam.

No amount of paint or varnish can make an inshore , lakes bays and harbors boat suitable for an ocean crossing.
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Old 03-25-2016, 07:03 AM   #29
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So this gets somewhat at my point. I have never heard of a Beneteau for example being smashed and torn apart at sea just as I have never seen heavier boats such as a Slocum smashed and torn apart at sea. Both boats are rated A for Bluewater sailing. Quality in this case, might be associated with heaviness. But, I wonder whether the heaviness of the boat is really quality, or can be associated with quality. Perhaps it is just the way old Boats were built and has nothing to do with safety in the long run.

When I read stories of people dying at sea, the stories are typically about a crew who abandons their boat never to be found again, while the boat is found floating intact at some distant corner of the world.

It seems intuitive, that heavier would be related to higher-quality. In the 60s and 70s we often's scoffed at plastic parts on cars, which are increasingly made with plastic and which are increasingly becoming more safe. Inch thick fiberglass maybe safer then three eights inch thick fiberglass, but for that one chance in 100 million that I will need such thickness, I question whether the higher price is worth the decreased risk.

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Old 03-25-2016, 07:50 AM   #30
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At a large yard where I know many of the workers the understanding of quality is termed "Walmart boats." Some obvious things they note stem from their daily activities with FRP repairs, through hull or thruster installs, system repairs and running gear maintenance.

Their list of quality boats is short and "Wamart boats" long.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:10 AM   #31
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It would be interesting to see what boats are on their Walmart list and why. Same for Nordstrom Boats.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:33 AM   #32
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When I read stories of people dying at sea, the stories are typically about

The above post is a great one, a "heavily buit boat" is just that. Typically the highest engineered boats are light ones..just as in other structures they put the strength in areas it needs it and not where it doesnt. I have friends that had a boat cystom designdd and built to be avery fast racer yet be able to cruise her. She was built to race the pac cup..then they sailed her back and left for a circumnavigation. That was 25 years ago and the boat is looking great and still going strong..all 50' of her sub 20,000 lbs.

Where a "cheap or walmart" boat typically gets sketchy is in the implementation of plumbing, mechanical, electrical..thats where I have seen the majority of issues. Wight as well leave the teak decks, window leaks, door leaks out of the equation as even the finest boat with those at some point has issues.
I still think the original boat in this post looks like a good value..the mid deck is a little strange..but it would be appreciated when geusts are aboard and the Admiral gets a bit randy in the forepeak!
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:38 AM   #33
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I only mentioned it here because a poster mentioned the obvious quality of the Lymann Morse, and it got me thinking of the bigger picture.
Actually, you were the first to mention "quality". In my original post I said it was a "pedigreed yacht" and "nice". Going back to the 1920s over 200 boats have been built in their yard. The boat under discussion is almost certainly a Jarvis Newman design (I'm thinking a stretched version of their 46'). This is probably the ultimate pedigree for a "Down East" lobster-yacht.

"Nice", well - sure - that's my opinion.

There are a lot of elements ("qualities" if you will) that go into building a yacht - and it's upkeep and upgrading after it launches. Some of these elements have clear hierarchies - there are clearly observable differences between, for example, Buck Algonquin and Perko hardware. Or one of my personal favorites Wichard. The move to offshore production has clouded the picture somewhat, but I think almost anyone on this forum could pick up a "quality" cleat and distinguish it immediately from a low-quality version.

Another set of elements are the raw materials. Before the advent of new materials like titanium and carbon fiber, the weight and cost of materials was closely correlated. African teak is 61 pounds per cubic foot and FEQ (First European Quality) grade teak is surprisingly close in price all over the world - it's a commodity. Fiberglass and resin, same. OK, when you get into resin-infusing and other advanced technologies the correlation breaks down, but for the types of boats discussed in this forum their original launched price was pretty closely correlated to their cost to manufacture, which was correlated to the cost of materials and components. And labor. Now that is the element that can vary greatly between different regions of the world, but there are some compensating factors in terms of freight, duty, and remote overseeing that don't make the ultimate difference as great.

And then there's marketing. That certainly adds cost , and to the extent that the marketing can induce a buyer to believe that their boat has "quality" (this is closer to the term as you were using it) then it certainly adds to the perceived value of the boat to the buyer. Whether they were discerning buyers, and whether that impression is sustained over time and into the used market, are large parts of what goes into a brand's success.

And then there are the aesthetics. This is the area where we all have to agree to disagree. But if a boat was designed by the Herreshoffs (there were several), both Ed Monks, Garden, Philip Rhodes, Tom Fexas, Art DeFever, Jarvis Newman, Jack Hargrave, Olin Stephens...and I'll even include the character designers like Sam Devlin and Jay Benford...then you have something that is distinct, and that has great value for some owners/observers. Some of these designers did production lines (e.g. the Monks for Roughwater and Ocean Alexander, Hargrave for Hatteras) but many of their designs were commissioned for well-healed and knowledgeable owners. OK, there are probably some clunkers there for eccentric owners, but for someone who wants an individualized boat rather than one of hundreds of the exact same model these boats have irreplaceable character.

Just look at the thread "Interesting boats". How many of those were production line boats?
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Old 03-25-2016, 09:03 AM   #34
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Oh man, what a heartbreaker. That sheerline! That long sweeping foredeck! what a beauty.
Yes, and the Jarvis Newman design is clear to me (2nd image is a JN 46 built by L-M):
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:57 AM   #35
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53' x 13' is pretty odd proportions for any modern Maine Lobsteryacht. Note that the JV 46 above is 46' x 15'. So I would say the LM 53 is listed cheap because she's a stretched boat, the clue is the flat sheer aft.
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:40 PM   #36
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For those of you interested in Lymann Morse boats, one is going on the auction block in Holland in early April. I believe it is a 48, which if I understand correctly has significant engine issues. I can agree that It has beautiful lines.

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Old 03-25-2016, 05:43 PM   #37
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Well...I didn't want to believe that 13' beam so curiosity got the better of me and I called the broker, and got a return call from Capt Broadbent (203-223-6728) who runs the boat for the owners.

And I was right (and Tad was really right). It was one of the first hulls out of the "new" Lyman-Morse and it was actually a 38' that was stretched by the then Commodore of NYC when his boat was a committee boat for an America's Cup. It was launched as Blue Dolphin and is shown in the "History" page on the Lyman-Morse web site:
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The (original) rudderpost is just below the forward bulkhead of the aft cabin (which, of course, is also where the (original) shaft and prop are. Which certainly explains the bow and stern thrusters.

It's a one of kind boat waiting for that one of a kind buyer (it won't be me ).
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:00 AM   #38
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"Stretching" a boat does not mandate that it will handle poorly.

In the NYC area there are many licensed passenger boats that use the USCG measurement to the rudder stock to claim the vessel is under a certain lower tonnage.

This allows the boat company to hire cheaper captains that don't have a big boat license.

The East River can run 5K in both directions , so predictable handling is required.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:36 AM   #39
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"Stretching" a boat does not mandate that it will handle poorly.
Stretching the boat without lengthening the shafts and moving (and enlarging) the rudder is absolutely going to make the boat handle poorly in many conditions. Think about it - you now have an additional 15' of boat hanging out aft that you have to throw around, except you only have the rudder area of a boat 2/3 of that boat's proper size. Give it a short blast forward and the boat's just going to laugh at you. It's going to steer like...a towed boat with a midships tie rather than a hip tie.
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:00 PM   #40
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Many of the downeast builders routinely stretch their hulls and don't move the running gear. Additions of up to 4' are common without changing running gear. Look at the Muscle Ridge 42' stretched to 46' . These boats are used by commercial waterman to make a living, day in, day out. H&H, SW Boats and Wesmac do these all the time.
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