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Old 03-03-2013, 11:15 PM   #61
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THD, just wondering, would you cross an ocean with your family in the Cheoy Lee?
I do not mean this to be fresh or sarcastic, but respectfully so.
Your reasoning sounds good, but I do not think the cheoy lee was designed as a
passage maker, but as a LRC. Plus 5 days into a transatlantic crossing, weather
windows would be a roll of the dice, I am thinking, but correct me if I'm wrong.
However I do appreciate your reasoning and any personal anecdotes about wood boats are greatly appreciated and gives us a little more info to chew on.



@DWhatty,
Thanks for the great no nonsense post/reply, sounds like your advice comes from having the experience, as well as having seen & been able to comment on the Malahide! So, basically, with deep pockets the Malahide would be a great choice.
Just be prepared to pay, and not just @ the pump, haha!!!

Just one more question, it sounds like the amount of work done on the Malahide
is just par for the course, and not neccessarily from neglect or disrepair??

Thanks everyone,
Meme
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:18 PM   #62
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I'd estimate the yard cost average yearly maintenance at $50K for the wood issues alone. Probably 1/4 that if you had the skills of Benn. With all the NE wood craftsmen available to you, button hole one of them for a sit down.
Yeah good idea, that's what I'll do. Pay a visit some folks at a local wood boat yard. They'll know for sure.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:20 PM   #63
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Haha good fun Art!!!
Well, now, actually, if you are of my generation, being called 'sexy mama' is the highest compliment!!!
Just havin a bit of fun with ya! With all these grandkids around, not a chance in hell that anyone could make me feel old, cuz the kiddos sure keep ya young, hehe.

Just saying,
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oh art, please don't call me mama, I'm prob younger than most of you here, sounds old, which I'm not

Dear youthful Meme,

By using the word "mama" I meant no reference to your age in either direction; rather simply as a pleasant slang-term toward your status of being GG's mother. Sorry you felt somewhat offended... Congrats on being a young mother!

Art
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:25 PM   #64
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GG & Mom,

Look, since nobody wants to talk actual numbers, I will.

First, let me lay out my credentials. I own a 60 foot wooden trawler that I did a full refit on. I've spent many hours on three different Malahides. I've advised others on buying boats in that size range. I know how much I spent on my refit, and it was several times more than I paid for the boat.

Now, as for the boat you are looking at: The initial price is completely and totally irrelevant. If I were buying a boat of this size and complexity, I would budget about $100,000 just for initial bringing-up-to-snuff work, and that's if you have the drive, talent and time to pitch in. If you are hiring labor directly, more like $150,000. Having a yard do it? $200,000. Remotely? Another $50,000 in travel, freight, etc. etc etc.

That's for a fairly basic freshen-up. If you want to do more, it gets very expensive very quickly. How expensive? Well, I have a friend who boat a boat of similar size and he decided to do a major refit. When I last heard, he was spending about $100,000 per month and he was nowhere near done.

Once she's in tip-top shape, you would want to budget about $30,000 per year or so in miscellaneous upkeep. Plus, you'll want a contingency budget of about $50,000 "just in case".

However, there's more. Handling a boat like this -- 60 feet, 60 tons -- is not simple. Trust me. Simple things like docking and anchoring are dealing with forces that will crush bones (and other boats) in a fraction of a second. That's beyond your skill level at this point, and that means that you'll have to be dealing with professional crew, and that's going to run a minimum of $50,000 per year, and quite possibly double that.

Finally, this is a simply terrible investment. Way worse than almost any other boat you could buy. It's almost totally illiquid. And I say that as I guy who knows, loves, and owns a big wooden boat.

Finally, your chance of getting insurance on this boat with you as the operator is zero. I had 30 years of experience boating; I'd owned other other wooden boats; I had chartered; I had a spotless survey from a surveyor the insurance company knew and trusted; and I still had to do a two-day check-out voyage with a licensed captain before I could get insurance.

I'll say it again: Get a Grand Banks 49. Learn the boat. Learn to boat. Then think about a bigger boat.
ok, but the boat that I'm considering has recently undergone a refit.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:41 PM   #65
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Here are several steel trawlers. Not sure what to think of them. I guess the second one is a sailboat?


Features 4 cabins, huge galley & salon, twin Cat s, bow thruster, 6.5kw genset, inverter, furnace, Price: $197,000 canadian dollars.
72' Steel Pilothouse Trawler for sale in Duncan, British Columbia - Sailingboatsincanada

Long range steel cruise motorsailer trawler for sale. Length 18m, wide 5.5 m., draft 2.4 m., Engine Iveco Aifo SRM45 400Hp. Autopilot, plotter, VHF, Radar, Navtex etc Raymarine. 5 cabins, 18 berths, sauna. Sails 125m2. Cruise speed 8 knots. Very good condition. Fuel 4000 litres, water 2500 litres. Fuel consumption at cruise speed 18 l/h.
Price 170 000 EUR. $220,000 dollars
http://www.marifor.net/index.php/mar...ow_ad&adid=171
second one looks interesting. Too bad so few photos. I'll have to see how to get more info. Now your starting to speak my language
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:53 PM   #66
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second one looks interesting. Too bad so few photos. I'll have to see how to get more info. Now your starting to speak my language
Looks good, but the gas isn't so great, looks like about 4.5, 5 gal per hour.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:33 AM   #67
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Just wanted to thank y'all for all the time & input in helping GG & I
sort this out. (Special thanks to Westwinds for all your research & input)
With each day that passes we feel that much closer to finding our boat.
With information comes power.
Having been a liveaboard down STT harbor for awhile I got to experience
the big hearts & loyalty of the boating community.
Just wanted to let you know how much you're appreciated at this
time in our lives, the advice/information we have got here is
invaluable & just cements in my mind what I already knew,
'boaters are a cut above the rest of the humanity'
thanks a million y'all!
Meme
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:41 AM   #68
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Yo, Meme and GG - - >

Keep your eyes open for maybe finding an affordable Fleming yacht.

Sample:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=63429&url=
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:46 AM   #69
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Meatsea-you asked if I would take my family across on the Cheoy Lee? the short answer is yes, I would. There are any number of "name" boats capable of such a crossing, Krogen, Nordhavn, Selene are the current favorites. Many Nords, from 47' up have made major voyages including at least three circumnavigations I am aware of. I am aware of several Krogens that have the Atlantic crossing including a 42 footer 2 years ago. There is a 58 currently in the Pacific on a circumnavigation. We fully intend to do an Atlantic crossing in three years in a 58' Krogen once my daughter finishs HS. So, you would not be alone in undertaking such a voyage. As to weather, you are right that 5 days may be a good limit to use for expected weather. However, many people crossing either the Atlantic or the Pacific will use a private weather service or weather router. There are several very good folks out there doing this. They will provide you up-to-date forecasts and projected safer routes usually severel times a day and usually via SSB or satellite email. The latest GRIB files are always available for download. Even at 7 knots, with good planning, you can avoid most heavy weather. There are plenty of people cruising, inculding some here I would guess, that have never, or only very rarely, had to deal with really heavy weather while cruising. It can be, and has been, done many times.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:45 AM   #70
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I think what you see below is a typical list for the work required periodically on a vessel of this type. This list can be larger or smaller depending on the amount of crew employed between intervals staying on top of touch-ups, caulking and rebedding of hardware so leaks and exposure don't turn into significant repairs.

The list is very detailed in its descriptions of the wood working and cosmetic repairs made but short on specifics of mechanical and electrical repairs and upgrades. Also tanks and piping can have significant issues. A 1975 boat is due for work in those areas too.

One red flag for me is removal of the stabilizer system. It may be it just wasn't effective due to improper engineering or it could be an owner who has no plans to go anywhere and has opted for a more economical fix due to spending fatigue. Stabiliziers require routine maintenance every three years to insure they don't leak, corrode and become unserviceable.

I came across this boat:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ng_id=6824&url=

and am interested to hear yours' and other folks with passage making experience comments on the type.

My previous comments about the costs of wood boat ownership are not to say you shouldn't. But, more than once I have heard folks after the fact say they would have gone a different way if they had better information up front. That includes folks who started on one wood boat and decided the higher priced one was the better deal and of course folks buying a used boat for the first time surveying a few before figuring out the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meatsea View Post
@IslandEagle, LWW, sunchaser, caltexflanc, bglad;

Thanks for your candidly honest & forthright advice, definitely what
is needed @ this point in time, good food for thought.

So then the refitting that was stated below was minor or not to be believed???
The 2006 refit sounds fairly comprehensive. Future upkeep & maintenance
aside, what is stated below is??????

" In 1999 her present owners refitted CONNDA VENNESSA extensively. She had new generators, new caulking in the hull and in the deck, a new galley, a new mechanical bilge pump, new masts reinforced with steel for increased strength, the bridge and engine room were brought up to date. The entire yacht was improved at great cost to keep all her ship-sized systems in peak mechanical and structural condition."

"In 2006/07 CONNDA VENNESSA was totally refitted, work to the structure included -
Hull completely stripped to bare wood, rotten planks (approximately 3 sqm) replaced, the hull planks were re-fastened and the whole hull was completely re-caulked. The non-operational stabilizer fins were removed and 2 x 2 new bilge keels were added. The hull was faired and painted. The yacht is single plank wood construction and therefore some movement is expected, hence a semi-commercial paint finish was chosen.
Areas of the superstructure, where rot was found or suspected, were replaced with marine plywood and protected with fibreglass and epoxy where required.
All windows are replaced, all window frames replaced and varnished. All portholes were chrome plated and fitted with new windows.
A completely new deck was been laid both on main and bridge decks, an area of approximately 120 sq metres."
Thanks!
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:16 AM   #71
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I would have to disagree with your figures all around, but I am doing the work myself or using my people (I own a construction company) to do the work. Were not salty shipwrights but we have common since and the boat thus far is in very good shape. I do hire people to do the other work that I can't do (electrician, fiberglass, welding). Can you elaborate on the $100k/month yard bill and what it was that was done? I'm in the wrong business.
You are right, it's possible to do it for less. But you are in a bit of a unique situation (knowledge of trades, an area strong wooden-boat culture, etc.).

The $100K/month was a guy who was doing a total gut & rebuild on a 66 footer.

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Old 03-04-2013, 07:26 AM   #72
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So then the refitting that was stated below was minor or not to be believed???
Correct. It is not to be believed. Do not believe a single word said to you by a broker or seller. Believe what is said to you by a surveyor who you have hired, who you have paid, and who you trust. And even then, be prepared. Care in point: I bought Island Eagle from a respected wooden boat broker (Mahina Yachts in Seattle). I had it surveyed by the best wooden boat surveyor in Seattle (Lee Ehrheart). A year after purchasing, I discovered extensive rot in the pilothouse and cabin, which had been carefully and purposefully disguised by the owners before the ones I bought from. Cost to repair was ~ 50% of what I paid for the boat.

Here's a snippet of a blog I kept at the time.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
_______________________________________

I went to work narrowing this down into a list of a few dozen potential boats. After talking to the brokers, I came up with a list of a dozen or so, and decided that I would spend the Christmas vacation looking at about half a dozen (funnily enough, I had eliminated Island Eagle from this list, partially due to the age of her systems). Five were in the North Carolina / south Carolina area, and I decided to use the same broker to see all of the boats. Big mistake. I got down to North Carolina, and the trip was a disaster. When I got to the broker's office, he told me that the first two boats I was supposed to see (a Grand Banks 32 and an Alaskan 49) were both out of the harbor. The next day I was supposed to see two nearby boats, one of which was owned by the broker. "Nearby" turned out to be 2 hours drive, and to top it of the broker's boat was a piece of crap. The boat was appallingly poorly maintained. He was asking $169K, and it's not exaggerating to tell you that the boat was worth at most $50K. The next day was even worse: I drove down to Charleston, SC to look at a Grand Banks 42, and arrived at the berth to find that the boat had not been there for at least a month!

I learned a few lessons right there:

1) Deal only with the listing broker. Don't talk to anyone else, even another broker at the same brokerage.

2) Find out where the boats are located and plan your own travel.

3) Get good, high-quality, recent pictures. If the broker can't provide them, abandon the boat, because any broker worth their salt would provide them,l and the fact that they don't means that they have something to hide.

After that disappointing experience, I was off to San Francisco to look at another boat: Mareva. I'd done our research on the web, and this was a boat! Man, it was practically a ship! But I'd been burned already, and I didn't want to get our hopes up. Finally, I headed over to see the boat in its moorage.

To say I was smitten was an understatement. This was a beautiful boat, and the price was pretty darn nice as well: Although the asking price was $299,000, the broker told us in the first few minutes that he thought I could get the boat for $220,000. Well! This was certainly a lot of boat for that price. I spent a long day on board, and then came back the next day. I also managed to track down a previous owner and get some additional information.

There were some troubling issues -- for example, the major fire in the mid 80's, which the broker had "forgotten" to tell me about. There were also some deck leaks, non-functioning stabilizers, unknown engine hours, some rot in the topsides, and about a half-dozen other substantial issues. Still, she was a fine boat. After a few weeks of agonizing I decided that I would have our surveyor come down from Seattle and take a look. After another full day on the boat I had a better understanding of the issues, and decided to make what I felt was a realistic bid at $120K, with our "cut off" mentally set at $160K. The vendor was "deeply shocked and appalled" but came back with a lower price. After a month of negotiation, though, the two parties remained $25K apart and I decided that we would walk away from the boat.

At the end of this process I learned a few more lessons:

1) Ignore talk about other buyers. Make your own decisions at your own pace.

2) Make an offer for what you think the boat is worth. In our case, I offered $120K on a $299K boat. Back your offer up with a survey so the seller realizes the real story.

3) Set an upper price limit and stick to it (We didn't, by the way. Our limit was $160K, and we went to $175K)

4) Don't be afraid to walk away. The wooden trawler market is very illiquid, and the boat will be there for a long time. The price won't ever go up, you can be sure of that.

5) To paraphrase Mark Twain, don't trust anything you hear, and only trust half of what you see.

Bruised and battered, I retired home to lick our wounds and regroup. I decided that I was going to start over, going through the full list one more time. I reviewed each boat, and for those that I was interested in I contacted the listing broker and if possible the owner. I came up with about 20 possible boats, which I then ranked. I even made a point of telling every broker exactly what boats I was looking at, which served two purposes: I let them know that I had other options, and it helped them understand what sort of boats we were interested in.

The other decision I made was to have our surveyor look at the boats before I did. Although this might sound a bit backward, if you have to fly somewhere to see a boat it's worth checking the condition before going to the hassle and expense of travel. In the long run, I am very happy that we did this.

Finally, I had a new "master list" of boats to check out: Two Grand Banks in Florida, a Grand Banks in Texas, an Island Gypsy and an ex-RCMP boat in Ventura, and five boats in Seattle... one of which was Island Eagle. My surveyor had already checked and endorsed all of the boats in Seattle. I flew out to look at every single boat, joined by my father for the Seattle portion. At the end of a week we were exhausted, but we had a clear winner! Island Eagle turned out to be the boat that "said hello". After a short negotiation she was mine... pending a full survey and sea trial, of course. In mid-April I headed down to Seattle one more time, and after a long and grueling day of sea trials and surveying (which the owners were most gracious about) I came away the new owner of an old boat.

Lessons Learned

1) Talk to the owner before looking at a boat (not always a guarantee, illustrated by the "needs a little varnish" boat which turned out to have gaping holes in the foredeck covered with trash bags and duct tape... really!).

2) Make sure brokers know what other boats you are looking at.

3) If at all possible, get your surveyor to spend a few hour on the boats before you see them. Listen to what the surveyor says.

4) Search by price, not just by size. The are some great bargains in larger boats.
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:35 AM   #73
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would you cross an ocean with your family in the Cheoy Lee?
Here's a simple answer: the boat will take it, but can you or your family?

That's serious question, and one to which you don't know the answer. You'll only learn it by spending time at sea, and a trans-oceanic voyage on a 40 year old boat is not the time to learn.

If you really are serious about buying a boat in which your family will be safe, then stop looking at boats on which that will not be true.

If you are actually serious, then you need a boat which is:

1) Well-found.
2) Well-maintained.
3) Capable for sleeping 7 + crew.
4) Low maintenance.
5) Child-friendly.
6) Realistically priced (under a million).
7) Trans-oceanic range.

There is only one boat that I know of that meets those requirements. I've been aboard and it's pretty special. I know the layout well because it's a sistership of Island Eagle. It's had several multi-million dollar refits. It's reasonably priced. It meets all requirements as set out above.

1967 Sutton / DeFever Pilothouse Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:27 AM   #74
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GG and Meatsea:

I may be hurting someone's feelings but I'll tell you this much. I worked close to Turkey for 7 years and it was there that I consolidated my love for Trawlers. If they are asking $half a million for the boat is because the boat worth it and most probably has a bigger value in USA. Costs in Turkey are at least 20% cheaper than USA. Therefore, if you really like the boat you can always survey it in Turkey and repair it there where the timber and the costs of labor are way lower than USA, if the bill is too high in USA or if it really requires a major overhaul.
Yet, there are other things that you must evaluate. Electrical installations, are they fit for purpose for USA? Can you get spars easily in USA for those boat systems?
Another option is that in Turkey you can order the boat of your dreams in Wood, Steel or FG for half the cost of the USA/Canada. Do you know that? Does it really worth buying an old boat for that much cash?

WHO EVER YOU HIRE TO CHECK THE BOAT, MAKE SURE IT IS A SURVEYOR THAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR TO WORK FOR YOU. NOT A BROKER!

I did not want to mention Ursa Major the Malahide still in service in Alaska, but that is a good example of a high value wooden boat.

Rgs
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:00 AM   #75
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Greetings,
Ms. GG & Ms. m,
Are y'all familiar with this site?
Djurgårdsvarvet - The Scandinavian Shipbroker
Since you appear to be searching worldwide and want lots of pictures...
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:56 AM   #76
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second one looks interesting. Too bad so few photos. I'll have to see how to get more info. Now your starting to speak my language
Here's more pictures, either that or we have an identical boat: 1952 Germany Long range steel motorsailer trawler sailboat for sale in

The engine is made by Fiat and seems large to me for the size of the boat. The fuel consumption does seem high, but if the boat was ran at near full power, the fuel consumption could be way up there. I would say needs further research.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:21 AM   #77
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Here's more pictures, either that or we have an identical boat: 1952 Germany Long range steel motorsailer trawler sailboat for sale in

The engine is made by Fiat and seems large to me for the size of the boat. The fuel consumption does seem high, but if the boat was ran at near full power, the fuel consumption could be way up there. I would say needs further research.
Here is more information of speed and miles per gallon.

Go to second paragraph about speed length ratio. Divide knots by gallons per hour to get miles per gallon. Try a few numbers and see what a tremendous difference speed makes in economy
Duck38 study

See the paragraph on speed/length ratio for more information on fuel economy and displacement hulls.
Nordhavn - Power That Is Oceans Apart

Some thoughts on the motorsailing trawlers.
SEAHORSE MARINE
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:01 PM   #78
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I would occasionally moor next to this beauty in Skyline Marina Anacortes:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=74772&url=

Truly a work of art and offered at a minor fraction of what it would cost to reproduce, or maintain! If money was no object, this would make my top 5 list.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:02 PM   #79
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Westwinds

That German motorsailor is one serious passagemaker, and it would cost a lot less to overhaul.

beautifull boat
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:24 PM   #80
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I would occasionally moor next to this beauty in Skyline Marina Anacortes:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=74772&url=

Truly a work of art and offered at a minor fraction of what it would cost to reproduce, or maintain! If money was no object, this would make my top 5 list.
A stunning boat to be sure, however the layout is a bit problematic, as there is no proper dining area. It's one of the limitations of this generation of Malahides. I spent quite a bit of time aboard a sistership, Lady Faye. That boat had an incredible engine, the Kelvin T8: Inline, 8 cylinder, 1900 cubic inches. Redlines at 1200 RPM and can be started by hand. It's something else to see. Kelvin Diesel Model T8

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