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Old 03-10-2013, 03:27 PM   #201
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As to range, this is usually a function of the max distance with 10 percent reserve at or just below hull speed. (Approx 1.3 x sq root LWL in feet), Ie, the fastest economical speed. Yes, slower would give more range, but in a 66' boat, you would not want to do 7 kn, when 10 would be almost as economical and get you there much faster.
10% reserve is (IMO) too low for crossing oceans. Especially for a big boat like the CL66. She is high sided with shallow (relatively) draft and small propellers. This type of boat will be seriously slowed by wind, wave, and current. A gale on the nose and pretty soon you are in a holding pattern, burning fuel and going nowhere. Minimum reserve should be at least 20%, 30 would be better.

I don't think anyone is really crossing oceans at 10 knots today(correct me if someone has a source) The older Norhavn 62's did crossings at 6.5 knots and I think Dashew (Windhorse) is crossing at 9 or so, and coastal cruising at 11.

The difference in fuel consumption between 7 and 10 knots for the CL66 will be huge. For a 59' LWL 90,000 pound boat 7 knots is a speed/length ratio of 0.91 and requires (in calm water) about 40HP. On the other hand 10 knots is S/L 1.3 and requires 160HP, or 4 times the fuel. This is why boats cross oceans slowly.....
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:52 PM   #202
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10% reserve is (IMO) too low for crossing oceans. Especially for a big boat like the CL66. She is high sided with shallow (relatively) draft and small propellers. This type of boat will be seriously slowed by wind, wave, and current. A gale on the nose and pretty soon you are in a holding pattern, burning fuel and going nowhere. Minimum reserve should be at least 20%, 30 would be better.

I don't think anyone is really crossing oceans at 10 knots today(correct me if someone has a source) The older Norhavn 62's did crossings at 6.5 knots and I think Dashew (Windhorse) is crossing at 9 or so, and coastal cruising at 11.

The difference in fuel consumption between 7 and 10 knots for the CL66 will be huge. For a 59' LWL 90,000 pound boat 7 knots is a speed/length ratio of 0.91 and requires (in calm water) about 40HP. On the other hand 10 knots is S/L 1.3 and requires 160HP, or 4 times the fuel. This is why boats cross oceans slowly.....
Tad,
Thank you for sharing that info. I would love to hear your opinion as to whether you think the the Choey Lee Sopressa is built as a transatlantic boat or if it is a suitable vessel to cross with?
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:14 PM   #203
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I would love to hear your opinion as to whether you think the the Choey Lee Sopressa is built as a transatlantic boat or if it is a suitable vessel to cross with?
First I'll say that I don't think there should be any doubt that Sopressa, properly equipped and crewed, could not safely cross the Atlantic.

I also doubt, looking at the pictures of the saloon and galley, that she was finished out with ocean cruising intentions.

And no, for me she would not be a suitable ocean going vessel. That huge open saloon, no handholds in sight anywhere, slick looking varnished sole, glass topped coffee table.....none of that spells open water to me. Way too far to fall (18' beam) for my old bones. And the galley with big open countertops with not a bit of searail in sight(and no handholds), it's useless at sea.

I really like the instant access from pilothouse to flying bridge. But those wide open spaces frighten me. Of course you can fit temporary rails and handholds on the overhead, but I'd rather have something solid to hang onto.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:39 PM   #204
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:57 PM   #205
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Crossing an ocean like the Atlantic is such a major feat of endurance that most people do not do it, even if they may have boats that might be able to be suitably equipped. Personally, I know several people who have done it in sailboats, but nobody who has done it in a power vessel. No matter what route you take, you are looking at 15-20 days of non-stop (24 hour) travel. Somebody, qualified, must be on watch the whole time. Assuming 4 hour rotations (it is very boring mostly) that means you really need an absolute minimum of 3 experienced hands, more is definitely better. Day upon day of rotating watches at sea takes a toll - everybody gets really tired. That is without any mechanical problems or bad weather. Maintenance on the vessel is an ongoing process while underway. Oil changes at a minimum will need to be done 2x during the crossing. Assuming twin engines this means shutting down one at a time. Fuel filters will almost certainly need changing multiple times during the crossing. Who knows what else?? At the end of the voyage what have you really accomplished?? You have put a lot of hours on your vessel and crew to make a journey that you could make in 6 hours by plane at a fraction of the cost. Along the way, you have probably been scared sh1tless several times. Hey you might have even died!!
The voyage itself is primarily one of being out of sight of land or any other living thing, so not much to see along the way. Compared to cruising closer to land or taking 500 mile offshore runs to get somewhere like Bermuda, the Bahamas, the Caribbean, or Canada it is really boring except when it is really scary. Are you really convinced you want to build your whole concept of boating around the need to have a large ocean going vessel for a trip you may make once (hopefully in both directions)??
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:24 PM   #206
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Crossing an ocean like the Atlantic is such a major feat of endurance that most people do not do it, even if they may have boats that might be able to be suitably equipped. Personally, I know several people who have done it in sailboats, but nobody who has done it in a power vessel. No matter what route you take, you are looking at 15-20 days of non-stop (24 hour) travel. Somebody, qualified, must be on watch the whole time. Assuming 4 hour rotations (it is very boring mostly) that means you really need an absolute minimum of 3 experienced hands, more is definitely better. Day upon day of rotating watches at sea takes a toll - everybody gets really tired. That is without any mechanical problems or bad weather. Maintenance on the vessel is an ongoing process while underway. Oil changes at a minimum will need to be done 2x during the crossing. Assuming twin engines this means shutting down one at a time. Fuel filters will almost certainly need changing multiple times during the crossing. Who knows what else?? At the end of the voyage what have you really accomplished?? You have put a lot of hours on your vessel and crew to make a journey that you could make in 6 hours by plane at a fraction of the cost. Along the way, you have probably been scared sh1tless several times. Hey you might have even died!!
The voyage itself is primarily one of being out of sight of land or any other living thing, so not much to see along the way. Compared to cruising closer to land or taking 500 mile offshore runs to get somewhere like Bermuda, the Bahamas, the Caribbean, or Canada it is really boring except when it is really scary. Are you really convinced you want to build your whole concept of boating around the need to have a large ocean going vessel for a trip you may make once (hopefully in both directions)??
Days, if not weeks and months, of boredom and routine interspersed with moments of sheer terror. That's been my (relatively limited) experience in open ocean work in yachts, large commercial and naval vessels. I'm perfectly content in my latter days to stay close to the coast.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:52 PM   #207
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First I'll say that I don't think there should be any doubt that Sopressa, properly equipped and crewed, could not safely cross the Atlantic.

I also doubt, looking at the pictures of the saloon and galley, that she was finished out with ocean cruising intentions.

And no, for me she would not be a suitable ocean going vessel. That huge open saloon, no handholds in sight anywhere, slick looking varnished sole, glass topped coffee table.....none of that spells open water to me. Way too far to fall (18' beam) for my old bones. And the galley with big open countertops with not a bit of searail in sight(and no handholds), it's useless at sea.

I really like the instant access from pilothouse to flying bridge. But those wide open spaces frighten me. Of course you can fit temporary rails and handholds on the overhead, but I'd rather have something solid to hang onto.
Those were the first and instantaneous things I noticed too. Then the jacuzzi on the flying bridge, where the tender used to go, and the little bar up there, tells you the most recent owners of this boat had "dock queen swinger's pad" in mind, not ocean or even coastal cruising. Also telling is the scarce info on any systems updates or maintenance an one picture of the ER. Looks really great for the new purpose. Someone is actually considering this boat for a different purpose?
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:10 PM   #208
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Gee, might be the best boat after all!!!
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:17 PM   #209
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...Compared to cruising closer to land or taking 500 mile offshore runs to get somewhere like Bermuda, the Bahamas, the Caribbean, or Canada...
Just for the record, I would like to point out that (most of) Canada is quite firmly attached to the US. Just go up to around the 49th parallel and look north and you'll see a good chunk of it. No boat even required.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:19 PM   #210
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"Sucking it up" for a 6, 8, 10, or 12 hour plane ride where you can sleep, relax, have others cook & bring your food, and not need to take care of other people is nowhere even remotely comparable to what you're considering.

And, your assuming that most of the others will enjoy it without having done anything like it before is ... Hmm... nevermind
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:59 PM   #211
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Crossing an ocean like the Atlantic is such a major feat of endurance that most people do not do it, even if they may have boats that might be able to be suitably equipped. Personally, I know several people who have done it in sailboats, but nobody who has done it in a power vessel. No matter what route you take, you are looking at 15-20 days of non-stop (24 hour) travel. Somebody, qualified, must be on watch the whole time. Assuming 4 hour rotations (it is very boring mostly) that means you really need an absolute minimum of 3 experienced hands, more is definitely better. Day upon day of rotating watches at sea takes a toll - everybody gets really tired. That is without any mechanical problems or bad weather. Maintenance on the vessel is an ongoing process while underway. Oil changes at a minimum will need to be done 2x during the crossing. Assuming twin engines this means shutting down one at a time. Fuel filters will almost certainly need changing multiple times during the crossing. Who knows what else?? At the end of the voyage what have you really accomplished?? You have put a lot of hours on your vessel and crew to make a journey that you could make in 6 hours by plane at a fraction of the cost. Along the way, you have probably been scared sh1tless several times. Hey you might have even died!!
The voyage itself is primarily one of being out of sight of land or any other living thing, so not much to see along the way. Compared to cruising closer to land or taking 500 mile offshore runs to get somewhere like Bermuda, the Bahamas, the Caribbean, or Canada it is really boring except when it is really scary. Are you really convinced you want to build your whole concept of boating around the need to have a large ocean going vessel for a trip you may make once (hopefully in both directions)??
I will travel the world in a boat...for sure... and when I do, I'll write about my experiences so that those who are too fearful can read what it's like. I am a planner, not a dreamer.
I'm 100% sure that many other things that I have already done in my life most would not even have considered.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:18 PM   #212
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I will travel the world in a boat...for sure... and when I do, I'll write about my experiences so that those who are too fearful can read what it's like. I am a planner, not a dreamer.
I'm 100% sure that many other things that I have already done in my life most would not even have considered.
I don't think anyone is doubting your intentions. Okay, maybe a few. But if you thought that the dock queen was 'the one' , it shows you need to work on your plan a bit more, but because it seemed you may have been attracted to the wrong attributes of that boat, a dream. Believe it or not, many of us here have travelled and have gone to sea. We get it.

I'll leave you with a saying I had to memorize when I was a cadet. 'The sea is selective. Slow in recognizing effort and aptitude, but fast in sinking the unfit.'
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:54 AM   #213
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I will travel the world in a boat...for sure... and when I do, I'll write about my experiences so that those who are too fearful can read what it's like. I am a planner, not a dreamer.
I'm 100% sure that many other things that I have already done in my life most would not even have considered.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:07 AM   #214
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Care to share examples? - Many on TF, me included, are always anxious to learn about adventures! Feel free to expound!!
I'd certainly second that - a new thread maybe on Off Topic Board..?
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:21 AM   #215
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Assuming 4 hour rotations (it is very boring mostly) that means you really need an absolute minimum of 3 experienced hands, more is definitely better."

With a small crew we have found 3 on 6 off much easier to live with.

An extra crew member just means someone gets a full day off.

3-6 is really easy if the bunk has a 12V warmer so little time is spent warming the bunk with body heat.

With autopilot or self steering most "on Watch" time is spent reading in the PH .

A good reason for Murphy alarm gauges, the "engineer" is always on watch
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:54 AM   #216
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I think some of those places like Cape Breton are barely attached to Canada!!!
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:35 AM   #217
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First I'll say that I don't think there should be any doubt that Sopressa, properly equipped and crewed, could not safely cross the Atlantic.

I also doubt, looking at the pictures of the saloon and galley, that she was finished out with ocean cruising intentions.

And no, for me she would not be a suitable ocean going vessel. That huge open saloon, no handholds in sight anywhere, slick looking varnished sole, glass topped coffee table.....none of that spells open water to me. Way too far to fall (18' beam) for my old bones. And the galley with big open countertops with not a bit of searail in sight(and no handholds), it's useless at sea.

I really like the instant access from pilothouse to flying bridge. But those wide open spaces frighten me. Of course you can fit temporary rails and handholds on the overhead, but I'd rather have something solid to hang onto.
I saw Sopressa about 4 years ago at the Trawler Fest in San Diego and Tad is exactly correct. She was converted into a very nice dock queen by her current owner. He had a professional skipper drive it to San Diego (I don't think the owner ever took her away from the dock). The skipper did a very impressive parallel park job in a space that was only a few feet longer than the boat. Everyone on the dock turned and watched and he got a standing ovation from the crowd when he docked her without even bumping the fenders against the million dollar yacht next to him. I was thinking it wouldn't cost too much to return her to a original passagemaker capability, but they tore out the bulkhead between the Pilothouse and the galley to make a bigger and very elaborate galley, which would cost a lot to put back. Her asking price has steadily decreased over the years, probably because she no longer fits anyone's needs.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:22 PM   #218
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Walt, Chrisjs,

Make that 30% fuel margin (at least) for me.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:41 PM   #219
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Definitely one of those situations where "more is better"!!!!
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:33 PM   #220
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Crunching some numbers on Sopressa; using an equation I obtained from David Gerr's "Messing About In Boats" with 59' length at waterline (LWL), 87,000 lbs displacement, 18' beam, I calculate a power requirement at 10 knots of 157.6 HP with no allowance for waves or wind, which would give a fuel burn rate of 8.67 gal/hr. Using the reported 2,700 gallon fuel capacity and holding 30% reserve she could do 2,178 NMi +/- 10% in ideal conditions. However, most ships this size will be running their generator to power the ships systems, which for Sopressa means running one of the two 25 KW Westerbeke generators, which burn 2.92 gal/hr at full load. Assuming 20% average loading on the generator, fuel burn at 10 knots increases to 9.25 gal/hr and range with 30% reserve decreases to 2,040 NMI. This would be sufficient to cross the Atlantic and technically sufficient to cross the Pacific at 10 knots. The distance from Hilo HI to San Francisco CA is 2019 NMi, but most people refuel in Honolulu, HI and cross to Los Angeles, CA which is 2,233 NMI. To cross from Honolulu to LA the Sopressa would need to slow to 9.5 knots. This would require 235.1 hours or 9 days, 19 hours and 9 minutes +/- a day or two. Note: these calculations are entirely theoretical and the fuel burn rates should be confirmed with operational data. Your mileage may vary based on the actual loading of the ship, the condition of the engines, the fouling of her bottom, ...

Having said that, I would not cross Oceans in the Sopressa. She has no stabilization, either active or passive. I would prefer active stabilization with passive as a backup, but one or the other is mandatory for me. Trawlers roll and can make for a miserable trip without stabilization. All of Bebe's "Passagemakers" had stabilization. She also has a rather low D/L of 189 (see Choosing a Passagemaker ). If I remember correctly, Bebe recommend a D/L of greater than 250. The handholds in the saloon are a concern, especially with children aboard. For adults you could add handholds on the ceiling, but what do the children hold onto? On the other hand, the intelligent way to cross Oceans is to leave the children home and fly them across once the boat gets there.

Finally, I think the wide body layout of the Sopressa is far less desirable than the conventional layout. I'd prefer to have the side decks for easier docking and line handling and having the side windows less exposed to waves when she rolls.

GG: not trying to give you a hard time, plenty of others are doing that, I'm only trying to further your education. Feel free to ask questions. The only stupid question is the one you never ask.
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