WiFI at the dock

[Pete Meisinger]

Why do most marinas feature such lousy wifi ?

Ive heard many excuses from the facility, ranging from distance to the docks, lousy provider, too many sailboat masts, weather, etc.

So I have come to accept that the wifi will be poor at best at most marinas. I occasionally will use my phone for a "hotspot" if I have business to do but it gobbles up data.

Do the wifi boosters actually work? Someone please explain them to me. Do I mount it on my mast or is it inside the boat or connected to my computer ? Primarily, do they work?

pete

 

[DavidM]

A decent wifi network requires multiple repeaters throughout the marina plus enough bandwidth to carry the traffic. Both cost money and will only be upgraded as visitors complain, maybe with their pocketbook by going elsewhere.

A wifi extender or whatever you want to call it will compensate for distant transmitters in a marina by allowing you to connect decently over a long distance. It won't really help with bandwidth.

There are many kinds, some with remote antennas that mount on the upper helm and others that work from inside the boat. Higher is usually better when you are trying to pick up a distant site.

David

 

[timb]

pete , i was talking to island time (someone here recommended ). we talked about my boat and decided the spreader out away from the mast would be my best mounting position . i cant tell from your avatar if you still have a mast. i think i'm going to order the parts from island time when i get around to it .

 

[DDW]

A wifi extender or whatever you want to call it will compensate for distant transmitters in a marina by allowing you to connect decently over a long distance. It won't really help with bandwidth.

David

Since delivered bandwidth is highly dependent on the S/N of the channel, a WiFi extender can definitely help with bandwidth - if that bandwidth is available at the marina's ISP connection. One problem in many marinas is the signal strength is OK, but the noise floor is quite high. One contributor to this is that modern boat electronics often have WiFi transceivers in them, often several in each boat, and often the owners let them run 24/7. Now if everyone buys a high power WiFi extender, the noise floor will be higher still.....

 

[Woodland Hills]

WiFi is a big money pit for RV parks and Marinas: constantly needing expensive upgrades and near daily hand holding by expensive techs. No wonder the smart ones have gone with one stop providers like OnSpot. For a flat albeit high monthly fee they get all the tech support they need plus free equipment upgrades. Hearing from the Dockmaster that WiFi is through OnSpot always makes me smile since I know I can stream my tv that night.
We have an Islandwifi modem that uses ATT as well but if there are a lot of ATT phones hooked up to the node OnSpot can be faster. That’s the case in Nassau now where we are waiting for a watermaker pump: OnSpot is marginally better than ATT.
Now if they could only sort out a decent VPN to watch US and UK tv out of area!

 

[jsplichal2]

I'm not a big tech guy, but I have done some "research" on the topic. I came across this article which I found interesting. Not being a tech guy I don't know how accurate it is but an interesting read.

https://seabits.com/marina-wifi-hard/

 

[jsplichal2]

And this article is his recommended systems.

https://seabits.com/best-boat-internet-systems/

 

[BandB]

Very similar reasons hotels often have lousy WIFI and they don't even have to deal with the elements or diversity of marinas.

As to the comments of constantly needing expensive upgrades or near daily hand holding by expensive techs, I'm not sure I agree with either of those. It's been years since any changes that would require expensive upgrades. WIFI still at two basic speeds. Repeaters needed much the same. Biggest point of failure is repeaters improperly installed or inadequately protected from conditions but with a well designed system easily identified. I'd say the more frequent problem is installing an inadequate system from the start and then trying to piecemeal it together with upgrades when the real issue is the initial design and implementation. Cutting corners on original equipment and using discount techs rather than the best in the area is more likely problems. Now, because they didn't do it right initially, many marinas need to start over today, but they still short cut it and try to make patches to a system that is always going to be inadequate.

For marinas,

1. Get a professionally designed system to cover every foot of the marina and users in every possible boat.
2. Use good solid equipment and go to the effort to protect it from the elements.
3. Enter into a service contract with the installer so it's maintained properly and providing immediate service in the event of problems.
4. Keep spares of all essential parts including repeaters.

 

[ranger58sb]

Why do most marinas feature such lousy wifi ?

Ive heard many excuses from the facility, ranging from distance to the docks, lousy provider, too many sailboat masts, weather, etc.

So I have come to accept that the wifi will be poor at best at most marinas. I occasionally will use my phone for a "hotspot" if I have business to do but it gobbles up data.

Do the wifi boosters actually work? Someone please explain them to me. Do I mount it on my mast or is it inside the boat or connected to my computer ? Primarily, do they work?

I think there's two answers to the "do they work" question. Technically, yes, they can improve YOUR onboard capabilities. Practically, maybe yes, maybe no... and they won't improve the quality of the marina's bottom-line throughput capabilities. (Imagine a 200-boat marina, maybe 5 (or more) devices per boat, 1000 devices competing for bandwidth.)

You can get outside or inside equipment, former usually needing power from someplace and likely causing some cable pulling, latter slightly easier and then also less effective.

FWIW, I've used simple indoor RadioLabs USB-powered WiFi adapters for years, signals received from a measured 1/4-mile away with some building blockage using the previous 2.4G-only model, and the current "Wave Stealth" 2.4G/5G version seems to do even better.

Just a few days ago, I started trying one of their o2Air combo router/WiFi antenna units, seems to receive signals from marina APs just as well. No significant improvement in reception or overall marina throughput, but it's given us slightly more flexibility inside the boat, and better throughput from device to our o2Air.

They have some external mounting systems, too, including a couple of USB powered outdoor antennas that that say are designed specifically for RV/marine use. I didn't go that way because I just haven't felt feel like pulling cables.

Not a recommendation, mostly just observations. RadioLabs seem like a bunch of techy kids who haven't got much of a clue about writing manuals (and real English would be nice)...

-Chris

 

[drb1025]

Nearly all WiFi is secured now and it’s very rare to find a signal that is open. So even if you have a nice signal booster, you can’t use it without a password/account. Instead of Dockwa, I would prefer marinas focus on better WiFi.

 

[SteveK]

I found this wifi analyzer, used it to point antenna on router for where I need it most. May be useful for others?
https://www.acrylicwifi.com/en/down...software-tools/download-wifi-scanner-windows/

 

[jleonard]

We finally got a repeater down the dock near our boat so now we have decent wifi. Took 2 years to get the marina to do it.
I pulled my wirie off the boat. I think it's too old to be effective. I'll probably just chuck it.

 

[ksanders]

Why is marina WIFI bad???

That’s easy.

It’s a pretty expensive proposition to properly engineer and deploy a marina wifi system, and many marinas are not ever going to spend the kind of money to support the needs of boaters who all want to stream video in the evenings.

First lets run through the physical side.

In order to support streaming at 2 mbps you are going to need a Access point approximately every 100’. These need to be within 325 feet of a communications cabinet that has a access switch installed. These cabinets need to link back to a central router with not only a internet connection fast enough, but with the routing capability to support all those streaming devices.

This is not some guy hanging a single Access point on a light pole guys. Marina WIFI is not going to be cheap to install, and the users expectations of data rates is climbing really quickly.

 

[psneeld]

I find many marina wifi systems to be strong enough to not need my booster...but the bandwidth is poor.

Plus.... Often it is poor on nearby wifi also...in fact, sometimes it is bad on my phone too.

I think often it's the whole area near many marinas that has poor bandwidth...not always but often enough for me to notice it.

One of the best wifis I ever used was Kilkenny marina south of Savanah...in the middle of nowhere...and docks barely safe to walk on. So money can be part of the problem, but it isn't always the problem.

Where I am now they have their legacy wifi which is all but unusable at times...but have 5G antennas now that are great....so make sure if you get external antennas, they are multi frequency.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

We are fortunate at Columbus Marina (MS) - very good wifi coverage - no problem with streaming and watching movies.... Have been told coverage is also excellent at the transient slips and walls. Come on down

 

[Airstream345]

I skip the marina WiFi entirely and use a cellular option instead. Been using it for about five months now with acceptable results.

We stream YouTubeTV (local channels), Netflix, Prime and regularly have two phones and two computers on it. I work from home so lots of uploads and downloads, video conferencing, etc. Our big stress test was over the holidays when all of the kids were onboard. We had a few moments when a TikTok wouldn't load right away but overall things were reasonably acceptable.

The system is basic, simple and easy to configure. I use a NetGear Nighthawk M1 Mobile Hotpot (AT&T unlocked) from Amazon ($300). That plugs into a NetGear WiFi Router ($120) that offloads the private and guest WiFi networks onboard. It's also a wired hub which connects Coastal Explorer, my NEMO Gateway and our Vesper AIS.

Service is through OTR Mobile, which, I think, is a trucking reseller. We spend $60/mo for unlimited, un-throttled bandwidth on AT&T. It's typical for us to use 500 GB in a month.

It does have some downsides. The OTR service US only, so as soon as we cross into Canada we lose connectivity entirely and therefore once again are dependent on marina WiFi or phones as hotspots. It's also cellular network load dependent so if your marina is near a tower that gets a lot of users at peak times bandwidth can vary significantly.

The best we've seen is 30 Mbps and the worst is <1 Mbps. Mostly it hovers around 5-15 mbps which is fine for streaming more than one device. I've noticed commuter hours can impact bandwidth more than anything.

I do plan to extend the system with an external LTE antenna and a Wifi booster and to separate the navigation network from the "house" network. I've also considered replacing the M1 with a multi-SIM card device but I'm waiting to see what T-Mobile does with their announced plan to offer cellular as a cable alternatives.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Yep, when cruising we use an Ipad Pro as hot spot and it covers our boat great. We also have unlimited ATT for the Ipad so we can watch anything we want, with a smart Roku TV.

 

[FF]

We are snowbirds , boat, motor home and places in CT and FL.


The easiest (tho not cheap) is



https://www.panbo.com/island-wifi-offers-u-s-service/


Even works at 80 mph on the super slab.

 

[JohnEasley]

Think of it this way... there is a pipe coming into the marina. That pipe is the cable connection to the internet. That pipe contains a multi-lane highway. That's the bandwidth. The more lane on that multi-lane highway, the more traffic can flow and the better the connections will be on the hotspots out on the dock. Now, let's say there is a four lane highway carrying your internet traffic and let's use Chris' example of 1000 connections. That's pretty clogged already. A wifi booster will allow a stronger connection from you to one of the hotspots on the dock but it will not change the number of lanes on the highway.

I agree that OnSpot is a primo provider for marina wifi systems. However, our marina has a whole fistful of OnSpot nodes spread out on the docks and people still complain about buffering and not being able to watch a movie or whatever. For that reason, we switched over to a wifi hotspot through ATT. We connected our Roku device, personal laptop, ipad and two iphones through it with no discernible lag. If I work remotely, I will connect the company laptop through the hotspot on my phone and it works great, even when video conferencing. Nowadays, I recommend cellular hotspots to everyone.

 

[Gordon J]

I thought so too, until

WiFi is a big money pit for RV parks and Marinas: constantly needing expensive upgrades and near daily hand holding by expensive techs. No wonder the smart ones have gone with one stop providers like OnSpot. For a flat albeit high monthly fee they get all the tech support they need plus free equipment upgrades. Hearing from the Dockmaster that WiFi is through OnSpot always makes me smile since I know I can stream my tv that night.
We have an Islandwifi modem that uses ATT as well but if there are a lot of ATT phones hooked up to the node OnSpot can be faster. That’s the case in Nassau now where we are waiting for a watermaker pump: OnSpot is marginally better than ATT.
Now if they could only sort out a decent VPN to watch US and UK tv out of area!

We got to the harborage Yacht Club in Stuart Florida. It uses OnSpot, but not enough repeaters or bandwidth. The marina can rightfully say it provides WiFi, just not very good.

 

[BandB]

One challenge, whether Onspot or any other service is the rising popularity of streaming. It was a few kids listening to music but that's nothing like the mass number of people now streaming television with it's much higher demands. Right now, we're traveling in Europe and currently a group of 11 of us and everyone with us has Roku with them to watch US television at night.

 

[Woodland Hills]

I tested our WiFi this morning and OnSpot 5g gave 47mbps when our island WiFi ATT modem was giving 17mbps. This was in Nassau so YMMV in other places.

 

[garmstro55]

We got one of these a few years ago and it definitely improves our range at the marina and it's cheap enough. Downside is that is need 120V.

 

[stevemitchell]

I'm not a big tech guy, but I have done some "research" on the topic. I came across this article which I found interesting. Not being a tech guy I don't know how accurate it is but an interesting read.

https://seabits.com/marina-wifi-hard/

And this article is his recommended systems.

https://seabits.com/best-boat-internet-systems/

Thanks! Those are my articles. A good one to read to help understand why WiFi is hard in marinas is at https://seabits.com/marina-wifi-hard/

I currently manage and maintain 10 different marina WiFi networks here in the PNW and they require constant attention. I'm also involved in many more networks on land, and they do too, but are more predictable given the layout and space.

Marinas are harder because of the size/space/layout and the interference. Not just "in the air" between boats, but the boat itself. Most of the marinas I visit, and those that I manage, you can get a good WiFi signal standing on the dock. Once you enter the boat, it starts sucking, if it works at all.

The only truly successful marina setups I've seen use high quality, professional equipment (most don't) with many radios per access point, proper professional software and site surveys, and blanket the space with as many access points as possible, which is waaaaay more than you think are necessary.

The biggest challenge with a system like this is cost - it can get extremely expensive to have this type of pro equipment to the density required.

Hence why boosters are so popular, and usually a much more reliable way for a boater to get connected. They also have a great side effect of being able to be used in bays and other anchorages with houses on shore that might have WiFi you can get to

 

[twistedtree]

What I find interesting, and more than a little bit embarrassing for marinas, is that this is a solvable/solved problem, and on a much, much larger scale than a marina.


The irony here is that everyone is turning to cellular as the faster, multi-user, more reliable, able to support streaming, no buffering solution. Yet with cellular, there is one access point every 5-10km, if not spaced much further apart. And that single access point serves thousands of simultaneous users, all doing whatever they want to do, and happy with performance. It's all been engineered to work, and works well.


I actually think its shameful that my phone provides better internet service for my whole boat, than does a marina wifi access point no more than 100 feet away. Most shameful. There is no excuse.


Yes, it's hard, as Steve Mitchell has explained. But so are lots of things, and that's why we call it "work". Keep up the good work, Steve, as you have demonstrated that it can be solved. More marina's need to get the message. If a marina can't provide power and internet, arguably equally important, I haven't got much use for them.

 

[BandB]

What I find interesting, and more than a little bit embarrassing for marinas, is that this is a solvable/solved problem, and on a much, much larger scale than a marina.


The irony here is that everyone is turning to cellular as the faster, multi-user, more reliable, able to support streaming, no buffering solution. Yet with cellular, there is one access point every 5-10km, if not spaced much further apart. And that single access point serves thousands of simultaneous users, all doing whatever they want to do, and happy with performance. It's all been engineered to work, and works well.


I actually think its shameful that my phone provides better internet service for my whole boat, than does a marina wifi access point no more than 100 feet away. Most shameful. There is no excuse.


Yes, it's hard, as Steve Mitchell has explained. But so are lots of things, and that's why we call it "work". Keep up the good work, Steve, as you have demonstrated that it can be solved. More marina's need to get the message. If a marina can't provide power and internet, arguably equally important, I haven't got much use for them.

I read all the reasons marinas don't have good Wifi and all I can say is they're all excuses as you've indicated. It's like saying the restrooms are dirty because of all the people who use them or the dumpster is overflowing because we have so many boaters here. Wifi is an important offering and that shouldn't mean lousy Wifi but good quality, whatever it takes. Yes, it may be expensive but so are your other services. I can add that your system that is adequate today, won't be tomorrow so you'll continually have to expand and upgrade. The excuses of distance and area to cover are lousy as the marina is what it is. Someone didn't just suddenly sneak in more docks. The excuse of two many users doing too much is just as feeble. Is it, "We'll provide Wifi as long as you'll all promise not to use it".

It reminds me a bit of Boston Market and their Prime Rib. Offer it starting at 5:00 PM but run out anywhere from 6:00 to 7:30. Regardless they run out every night. They only cook one roast per night. Demand is great but they'll never know what it is as they'll never fulfill it. One arrives at 6:30 and they're out and that only loses a customer. Answer is arrive earlier but doesn't help them as they're not going to sell more regardless. Actually heard one executive say "We don't sell enough to justify cooking more." How can you say that when you run out every night. You're limiting what you sell.

To Marina owners and managers, you are supposed to be businesspersons not just dock workers. Act like it.

 

[tiltrider1]

We have been down this rode with our outstations at Seattle Yacht Club. First we had just one antenna on the club house. Soon we realized this worked until the marina was half full. Then we added multiple antennas on the dock. This solved connectivity issues but soon we ran into issues with the broadband supplier. They wouldn’t gives us enough capacity. Eventually we found a way around that. We still have challenges at our more remote outstations in Canada, luckily most boats at the remote locations have their own Satellite TV systems.

 

[CaptTom]

Our marina is private, and owned by the members.

We know how much it would cost to buy the equipment and bandwidth which would allow everyone who spends the night aboard on a busy weekend to stream live TV. The minute they hear that number, most members decide they don't need it that badly, after all.

We cover the marina with a decent signal, and enough bandwidth to allow most members to surf the web, check e-mail and stream audio. But as soon as a few of them start watching streaming TV services, it goes downhill fast.

What we've found is that the demand is unlimited, and always growing. It's not economically feasible to eliminate all complains. Instead, those who really need reliable connections use their cell phones. I have a plan that allows tethering. Some install satellite dishes on their boats or pilings.

Comparing the cell technology to what a small business like a marina can purchase is pretty much apples to oranges. The real cost is not in the access points, but in the connection to the internet.

 

[wkearney99]

Bear in mind that phones do not make reliable hotspots. Sure, "you can" but phone batteries aren't designed for a constant use scenario like a hotspot. You're asking for trouble with the battery overheating and expanding. If you're only planning on temporary, intermittent use... fine. But if you're planning on multi-hour streaming... get an actual hotspot setup.

 

[StarChaser]

Pete,



My last marina's Wifi was horrible (ISDN speed). After a year of frustration I gave up & went the DirecTV route. I built a bracket for the dish to mount anything from the size of 1 4x4 post to a telephone pole. Now I have My own link with max speed, no worries about the marina logging my searches. I can take it everywhere, and have it set up in 30 minutes after getting everything else tied up. Beats any marinas WiFi hands down.