Go Back   Trawler Forum > Trawler Forum > General Discussion
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-09-2013, 09:48 PM   #1
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
Why You Should Always use a Surveyor when buying a boat! The New Alaskan Sea-Duction

Well good and bad day for the new boat. Both inspectors showed up on time and went to work. These two guys have been in the business for a very long time. The hull inspection went well and only minor things were found. The engine inspector also could not find anything wrong other than a loose motor mount. Engines were ran up and both inspectors smiled. Both stated the engine and generator were in "like new condition. We took the boat out and ran both engines maxed out and got a reading of 2750. Max is 2800. The engine guy was busy taking measurements and checking for leaks. Everything checked out and we headed back to the marina.

We said goodbye to the engine guy and he stated the engines were in good working order. Then the boat was hauled out. The owner and I saw the same thing at the same time. The props were bent and the zincs on the port shaft were jammed up against the cutlass bearing. The Stbd trim tab was broke off at the cylinders. The owner was not happy as this yard had installed the zincs last March.

The owner was worried I would back out. I told him so long as this stuff is fixed, then the deal is still on. The yard will replace the zincís and port cutlass, any charges associated with putting the boat on the hard. The owner will fix the props, stbd cutlass and trim tab. I am hoping we will still be able to leave on the 21st. The fuel guy is coming out tomorrow to modify and clean the fuel tanks. So in the end everything has worked out. Looks like we will be the new owners.
See Blog for pics
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 09:55 PM   #2
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,937
That's assuming the surveyor is really all that good and knows more than you do..which in many cases is doubtful.

A second par of eyes and experience is good....but too many times their "suggestions" cause issues with the insurance companies for no good reason and they miss a LOT for what they charge,

Surveyors are a necessary evil for some and for as many horror stories I;ve heard about the profession...seems like an internal shakeup is due...I'd rather pay double for the average survey if I though it would do me some good and had some input to what goes to the totally uninformed insurance world.
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 10:02 PM   #3
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
I have heard the stories too. That is why i did some research b efore hiring these guys. Both have a solid reputation and are highly recommended.
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 10:06 PM   #4
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
That's assuming the surveyor is really all that good and knows more than you do..which in many cases is doubtful.

A second par of eyes and experience is good....but too many times their "suggestions" cause issues with the insurance companies for no good reason and they miss a LOT for what they charge,

Surveyors are a necessary evil for some and for as many horror stories I;ve heard about the profession...seems like an internal shakeup is due...I'd rather pay double for the average survey if I though it would do me some good and had some input to what goes to the totally uninformed insurance world.
I could not agree more ! If the insurance companies stopped accepting surve reports rfom the huge numbers of idiots in the business things would be different. I once surveyed a Salmon charter boat on Lake Ontario. It was so bad that my summery said "This boat will explode" A few days later that boat was on the water with insurance and a family onboard. Do you think the ins.co. actually read the survey ?

I sometimes think they Insurers) are just making too much money to care.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 10:34 PM   #5
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,195
The boat looks great, Tom. Very nice layout. I hope she serves you well.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 11:00 PM   #6
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
No matter what, there will always be something wrong with a boat.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 11:02 PM   #7
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Nice boat.....glad you caught those items though.....coulda been big trouble, maybe even on your maiden voyage.
healhustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 11:16 PM   #8
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
No matter what, there will always be something wrong with a boat.
If there was a prize for the best quote of the year, I'd give it to you right now for that one
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 11:46 PM   #9
Guru
 
Scary's Avatar
 
City: Walnut Grove Ca
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cary'D Away
Vessel Model: Hatteras 48 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 884
Small world

I spent a year working in that yard as a independent contractor. Great people. I know your mechanical surveyor and he is the best in Northern Ca. If your hull surveyors name is Steve McNear than you have the best buyers surveyors in the Delta. Good Luck on your trip home.
Scary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2013, 10:05 PM   #10
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
Well the fuel guy called today with a surprise. The back two 50 gal tanks the owner said he NEVER put fuel in were full of diesel! 26 year old diesel! They will be pumped and cleaned.
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2013, 11:10 PM   #11
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction View Post

Engines were ran up and both inspectors smiled. Both stated the engine and generator were in "like new condition. We took the boat out and ran both engines maxed out and got a reading of 2750. Max is 2800. The engine guy was busy taking measurements and checking for leaks. Everything checked out and we headed back to the marina.

Then the boat was hauled out. The owner and I saw the same thing at the same time. The props were bent and the zincs on the port shaft were jammed up against the cutlass bearing. The Stbd trim tab was broke off at the cylinders.

So in the end everything has worked out. Looks like we will be the new owners.
ASD - I'm happy for you that all worked out in the end. And, glad you found the 25 yr old diesel fuel in tanks before final payment.

Just wonderen... With bent props, didn't you feel a hull trembling "Rumble in da Jungle" when you reached WOT during sea trial?
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 05:37 AM   #12
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
>No matter what, there will always be something wrong with a boat.<

Folks that purchase NEW boats should have this etched into their glasses ,

NEW boats probably need a survey more than most used boats.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 06:28 AM   #13
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,671
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
How true FF. Remember Blannie on PMM, an airline pilot based in Hong Kong, who bought a factory new Clipper 40, which would have sunk at its moorings on its first time into the water if he had not been so excited he slept on it that first night. He was woken in the night by a high bilge alarm I think. Because he took delivery in the China direct from the factory, the distributor had not had a chance to give it the once over, (read survey), and there was an insecure underwater fitting - something to do with the aircon I think...
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 09:08 AM   #14
Moderator Emeritus
 
jwnall's Avatar
 
City: St. Marks, Florida
Country: US
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 36
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,621
There are good surveyors and there are bad surveyors (probably the same as in any other industry). Anyone who just blindly picks one is gambling. Gambling their boat, possibly their life. A personal reference is a must. And not along the lines of "Yeah, Joe is a really nice guy. He won't give you any problems." I prefer "Sam is the most nit-picky obsessive SOB that I ever saw! He had to look at everything in excruciating detail!"
jwnall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 10:37 AM   #15
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,937
The trick is to read some previous surveys if you can...even if they are just sample pages...the trouble with references is the person giving the reference...what seems thorough to them may still be a glossing over of important issues because they themselves don't know what's important or not.

My favorite surveyor story is still my "great" , "highly recommended", "nitpicky" surveyor that wrote of a major safety issue on my last boat. My compass had a 1/2 inch air bubble in it. It in NO WAY affected the performance of the compass and the compass was a much better compass than often found on similar class vessels.

So of course the insurance company "insisted" that it was a safety item and it had to be fixed prior to moving my boat. My navigational limits were the confines of the Chesapeake and Delaware bays...but that compass better be fixed...even though major electrical and ac salt waters plumbing issues that the surveyor missed almost caused fires and flooding over the next couple of years.

Again...my point isn't as much of a slam on surveyors as it is on the insurance industry...plus as sellers we don't like surveyors dismantling or destructively testing and as buyers, we hate paying all that money for a survey to walk away from boats that are close.....

The system seems a little out of whack to me and the more experienced I become...the worse it gets...especially when trying to talk to an insurance company.

I just changes to a liveaboard policy and it went up 25%...yet the boat is way safey, better maintained, watched closely every day...etc...etc. Yet I can see their point because some liveaboards are a bigger risk...some aren't. They make NO effort to find out which group you fall into and their fallback is using a surveyor which as I've posted often glosses over the hidden "dangers" because of how business is done.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 01:02 PM   #16
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
Insurance actuaries work in unusual sets of mathematical rules and have GREAT lee way to "assume" circumstances that ďmightĒ arise. As well as to place financial burden on whomever they please, in whatever region they desire, in order for their company to recoup payouts to others that occurred elsewhere.

Society of Actuaries: http://www.soa.org/

Actuary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuaries

Couple years ago my SAFECO boat ins suddenly doubled from $550 + to $1100 +. No change in policy and no claim ever made. When I asked my broker to determine why she simply could not and would only say that SAFECO as well as other ins cos had elevated policy costs across the board in my region.

I contacted other ins cos and found their costs for same policy coverage had become similar Ė pretty much across the board. I then spent much time calling into SAFECO HQ to find the real reason why my regionís pleasure boat ins costs had suddenly doubled?? Eventually, and after persistently climbing to higher exec levels in SACECC HQ I got in touch on phone with a SAFECO VP. Following is what was said:

Me: Hi, I am CEO of my corporation and after much time on phone to reach an exec at your level I would like you to tell me why my pleasure boat ins costs suddenly doubled for no apparent reason?? I dock and use my boat in SF area.

Her: Have you increased your coverage or filed any claims?

Me: No, never. My insurance coverage has been the same for years with no claim.

Her: There has been an adjustment in that region.

Me: Why?

Her: Iím not sure; let me get back to you.

Me: (in an elevated, stern tone of voice) No, Iím sorry but that wonít work. Iíve spent hours trying to learn why SAFECO has doubled my boat ins costs and I am confident that you know the reason. Please tell me now, or, upon end of this conversation I will immediately switch coverage to another co.

Her: (in basically a whisper) OK, but, please do not repeat that I told you this: SAFECO actuary dept raised rates across regions to help pay for claims filed after last yearís huge Atlantic coast storms.

Me: Thank you and good bye.

Basically I (we) pay for others losses. I understand that to a point... in that on a broad scale the burden of insurance risk needs to be shared... but to double ins costs across a region that is 3,000 plus miles from where the losses/claims happened, that has no likelihood of any calamity so severe, and in one fell swoop, seems a bit over the top! Iíd like to see their books on P & L now that a couple years have passed since the storms. My ins costs have remained doubled and I doubt they will be lowered any time soon!

Back to surveyors:

A very nice fellow on TF Ė Peter, ďMarine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!Ē (Avatar: Pau-Hana) was nice enough to provide me with an ins quote that is somewhat lower than others. The caveat for all ins cos is that I need to get a new survey accomplished. So... seeing as I am 100 miles from boat, haul out is not necessary at this time, as well as other schedule interrupters... Iíve currently decided to simply pay SAFECO ins till I haul. Then I will likely spend $$$ for a new survey and reinsure through Peter. That said, in addition to survey costs, it might be that I will need to spend additional capital for some boat items that the surveyor feels need attention and that the ins co wants completed before policy is issued. I know our Tolly boat like the back of my hand and I make sure that all her portions stay in perfectly good, workable condition. But, similar to what psneeld mentioned Ė I too have small bubble at top of my lower helmís compass... and... seeing as it works fine and I virtually always pilot from the bridge I really donít want that type item from the survey to end up costing me unnecessary expen$$$es.

Happy Boating Daze! - Art

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 01:48 PM   #17
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
ASD - I'm happy for you that all worked out in the end. And, glad you found the 25 yr old diesel fuel in tanks before final payment.

Just wonderen... With bent props, didn't you feel a hull trembling "Rumble in da Jungle" when you reached WOT during sea trial?
That was the funny thing, no vibration. They were not bent that bad, but bad enough we could only get 2750rpms instead of 2800.
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 09:54 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
bikeandboat's Avatar
 
City: Maumelle, AR
Country: United States
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 106
Concerning the lack of vibration with bent propeller blade(s), I would imediately say there should have been vibration. However, earlier this year a friend of mine wanted me to help with his boat. He was trying to sell the boat, but during the survey some damage was found which included a couple bent prop blades on the starboard prop.

My friend is not very good handling his boat, so I took the helm to get the boat to the lift so he could have repairs made after losing the sale. Much to my surprise there was no vibration. I must admit we did not get over mid range on RPMs because it was a short trip to the lift, but still there was no vibration.

Once the boat was lifted, and to my surprise, there were the bent blades. I guess the bends in the blades were offsetting or something. Until I experienced it myself, it was impossible. Boats are sometimes a little weird.
bikeandboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 10:25 PM   #19
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,855
Art said, "Basically I (we) pay for others losses. I understand that to a point... in that on a broad scale the burden of insurance risk needs to be shared... but to double ins costs across a region that is 3,000 plus miles from where the losses/claims happened, that has no likelihood of any calamity so severe, and in one fell swoop, seems a bit over the top! Iíd like to see their books on P & L now that a couple years have passed since the storms. My ins costs have remained doubled and I doubt they will be lowered any time soon! said, "

Insurance works on the law of big numbers. Actuaries compute the chances of losses and recommend rates to cover those losses. Insurance companies can only operate at a loss for a short period of time.

That being said I sit on the board of an insurance company that deals with mostly workers compensation insurance. Our underwriters consider loss ratios, overall history, and experience modification rates. Then they recommend whether a policy should be issued. Sometimes the underwriters are over ruled by the board, but not often. Actuaries are weird. I am convinced that they have a Ouija board back there that they consult. We usually set rates by a loss cost multiplier. The most weird thing they compute is IBNR. Claims incurred but not reported. Totally an off the wall number.

Sure, to some extent we will all be paying for storms in other areas. Spreading the cost is the only way that insurance is at all affordable.
__________________
Don on Moonstruck
Sabre 42 Hardtop Express & Blackfin 25 CC
When cruising life is simpler, but on a grander scale (author unknown)
http://moonstruckblog.wordpress.com/
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 11:26 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
City: Pittsburg, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: NoMoBoat
Vessel Model: Trawlers
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 278
You did not notice vibration ?!?

Wish this Post had come 6 mo. ago before I spent a couple of Boat Bucks on a diver and a new Prop to solve my Vibration problem. Everyone I spoke to thought it most likely the Prop!

Yeah, it looked a bit ugly from the Haul-Out 2.5 years ago, but after the shop cleaned it up, not so bad. Still, I opt'd for a new one since it did have some dings, corrosion, slight bend, old and ugly.... and was already off.

Almost no change in Vibration. Going all over the engine mounts and shaft log / stuffing box tightening nuts seemed to help much more.
Pretty much convinced that she needs alignment at next haul; as soon as that is practical.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Prop 1a.JPG
Views:	79
Size:	60.6 KB
ID:	22845   Click image for larger version

Name:	Prop,  WP_20130515_001  sml.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	96.6 KB
ID:	22846  
__________________

__________________
JimS on the Delta
Delta_JimS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012