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Old 04-20-2014, 03:06 PM   #21
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angus99,
I think your wife summed it up nicely.

But there are many topics discussed here that women could have lots to say. Cooking obviously, painting and decorating, design from an aesthetics standpoint, for some .. navigation, stoves, heaters, bedding, planning ..... yea come to think of it women could be significant on TF.

But I think they consider it (TF) a man cave. And most posts are responses so you've got to read the thread to respond and our girls don't.

I sure don't run OUR boat by myself so Chris is a big part of our boating. But not there on TF. I'll ask her about this. Big Easter egg hunt thing today so not a good time as she's a planner and very busy .... as I will be soon.
Angus99 and Don,
Sexist????? REALLY?
I wonder if my brain's OK as I don't see it at all. I consider myself one of the least likely to say something "sexist". Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:17 PM   #22
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Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.
Eric, it is just that your post gave the appearance of categorizing women to "traditional" roles as some men have seen them. As I said, I don't think you meant it that way.

By the way, I'm a pretty good decorator myself. I just hate it when colors clash, and scream at me!
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:18 PM   #23
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Angus99 and Don,
Sexist????? REALLY?
I wonder if my brain's OK as I don't see it at all. I consider myself one of the least likely to say something "sexist". Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.
Eric, I didn't use the word "sexist," but I do think a lot of women I know prefer not to be limited to stereotypical gender roles. My only point was that your list seemed a bit confining.
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:51 PM   #24
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Eric, I didn't use the word "sexist," but I do think a lot of women I know prefer not to be limited to stereotypical gender roles. My only point was that your list seemed a bit confining.
Stereotyping is the best word. Now in some couples they fit. Not with us. Actually labeling us would be impossible and the moment you think you have us figured out then one of us might surprise you. We've so worn off on each other too. Sometimes we'll say something as the other would have and one of our friends will then call us by each other's names.

I might encourage each of you to ask your wife or girlfriends if there are topics she'd like to discuss with others. Just in seeing the list of topics mentioned in the post about women's likes, there are many of those even men might have some interest in. I know cooking, at least grilling for me. What about provisioning of food? How much do we decorate our boats? Furniture? Appliances? There are certainly topics beyond the boat and engines and mechanical parts. We all tend to follow form here and not often delve into new areas of discussion. I do think this breakout of discussions of women in boating is great. Just wish more women in the discussion. In fact, I just thought of one more threat to start in this regard.
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Old 04-20-2014, 04:54 PM   #25
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Wifey B:

Sorry I didn't see this thread and started another. I'm a woman. Captain. Equal participant. Women, if you're not, you're missing out. Men, if you're not encouraging her, you're one day dooming your continued boating.
Well, I disagree. Each couple finds the balance that works for them. On some boats the wife PREFERS to be the passenger. Running a boat and navigating is not a stress-free endeavor. If she (or he as the case might be) elects to be the First Mate, I see no reason to rock the boat.

What works well in the BandB boat might not be so on another.

Mother never was good at running the boat. She didn't have the feel for it so she didn't. On the other hand, she could feed us well, was willing to paint, wouldn't sand, didn't fiberglass, couldn't plot a course, could spot the marker, baked bread like you wouldn't believe, made conch fritters to die for, could cook any fish cleaned for her, etc. And that was after nearly 50 years of living aboard...

Cookie cutters are not for boaters. Each of us has strengths and weaknesses. If the wife WANTS to do anything, that should be the guide. Ditto husband. My neighbor when I was on dirt cooked. He found he enjoyed it, so after retirement took over the kitchen.

A lot of the gender "issues" are generated by expectations. When I was shopping for Seaweed any email sent to a broker was ignored or answered in one sentence. As soon as I started sending the letters from "Janice (and Frank)" I got answers.

It is what it is. Let a man walk into a fabric store and he'll think he's invisible. And when a woman walks into a marine hardware store and often she will often find the same experience. As for me, I'm too old to worry about it.

Besides, I'm having too much fun afloat.
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Old 04-20-2014, 05:26 PM   #26
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Well, I disagree. Each couple finds the balance that works for them. On some boats the wife PREFERS to be the passenger. Running a boat and navigating is not a stress-free endeavor. If she (or he as the case might be) elects to be the First Mate, I see no reason to rock the boat.

What works well in the BandB boat might not be so on another.

Mother never was good at running the boat. She didn't have the feel for it so she didn't. On the other hand, she could feed us well, was willing to paint, wouldn't sand, didn't fiberglass, couldn't plot a course, could spot the marker, baked bread like you wouldn't believe, made conch fritters to die for, could cook any fish cleaned for her, etc. And that was after nearly 50 years of living aboard...

Cookie cutters are not for boaters. Each of us has strengths and weaknesses. If the wife WANTS to do anything, that should be the guide. Ditto husband. My neighbor when I was on dirt cooked. He found he enjoyed it, so after retirement took over the kitchen.

A lot of the gender "issues" are generated by expectations. When I was shopping for Seaweed any email sent to a broker was ignored or answered in one sentence. As soon as I started sending the letters from "Janice (and Frank)" I got answers.

It is what it is. Let a man walk into a fabric store and he'll think he's invisible. And when a woman walks into a marine hardware store and often she will often find the same experience. As for me, I'm too old to worry about it.

Besides, I'm having too much fun afloat.
Wifey B: Didn't mean to imply same for all couples. Just if one likes to cruise and the other doesn't like it then it can create difficulties. I have no issue if couples choose stereotypical roles or any other roles that work for them. Whatever works is great. Just absence from each other is difficult for most as is cruising when one dislikes it.

The thing you mention about the salesman we ran into buying my dream car but in person on one lot. I ask question, salesman addresses answer to hubby.
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Old 04-20-2014, 06:11 PM   #27
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Angus99 and Don,
Sexist????? REALLY?
I wonder if my brain's OK as I don't see it at all. I consider myself one of the least likely to say something "sexist". Dying to hear what you guys consider sexist.
Manyboats, Your brain is just fine. It's the brains of easily offended and overly sensitive people that I worry about.
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Old 04-20-2014, 06:16 PM   #28
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The thing you mention about the salesman we ran into buying my dream car but in person on one lot. I ask question, salesman addresses answer to hubby.
A friend of mine (male) quilts and he is almost always ignored when in a fabric shop. Sales ladies talk to his wife who wouldn't know a cotton from a wool. They both laugh about it.

Most of the time I let stuff roll off because few 50-something women with grey hair are boaters. And as a soloist? Not many of us are out here...

Though I don't meet the norms I am old enough to realize that most salesmen are going to focus on the percentages -- and I'm not regarded as a potential buyer.
#1) I'm wearing a dress.
#2) A dog is in my purse.
Seriously, would most salespeople in West Marine think I knew a block with a becket from one without?

What makes me sad though is when spouses do not listen. And yes, I mean really listen and hear what the partner is saying.

A while back I met a couple. They'd lost their trawler in Hurricane Ivan and had been shopping for a new one. He bought the boat of is dreams. She'd said "no, not that boat" but he knew she'd learn to love it.

Well, she didn't. And wouldn't EVER like that boat. Why? Because she was a cook and a baker. It was her pleasure in life. In order to open the oven she had to step out into the companionway. Every meal had to be hauled up three steps to the salon, out the side door and up two more to the aft deck where they dined.

It was a lousy set up. In the galley she could not look out the window and see anything but the side deck and it was enclosed. There was no way possible to improve /fix what was wrong and less than a year later she was in a condo and the boat was for sale.

Had the fellow heard her words ("not that one") he'd have not bought that particular boat. I do believe they'd have had years aboard instead of an aborted, expensive test run that was destined to fail.

If you like a fly bridge you'll hate my boat. I want a galley up, and there are those who prefer down. That's why there are so many boats built, but hearing (really hearing/listening) would avoid some of the failures.

Partners, real ones, need to lighten up and give it a go. And I have seen reluctant spouses turn into enthusiastic cruisers -- the inverse is true too. I've seen enthusiasm die in the face of Captain Bligh as often as Evil Screeching Woman destroy dreams.

The volatile couples don't seem to last long.

As a girl, I do want a nest and chose a boat that allows me to nest. There is a level of decadence I won't do without. Seaweed isn't perfect, but she's getting closer.

I'm rambling, and will stop now.
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Old 04-21-2014, 09:45 AM   #29
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Nice ramble Janice,
Stereotyping in couples only is a problem when there's a mismatch in couples. And of course honesty is essential. My stepdaughter said once "mom's shoveling the driveway .. you should be doing that. That's man's work". In that case it wasn't stereotyping but a difference of opinions. I don't think a driveway needs shoveling unless it would be difficult to walk or drive over it. Lots and lots of people in Thorne Bay AK shoveled snow when there was only small amounts of it and I thought it was a waste of time. Chris didn't so she shoveled the driveway .. sometimes. Then I'd feel guilty and go help her. And mostly not grumbling as I knew she thought it was important. Perhaps she thought part of being an Alaskan was shoveling snow. And perhaps most of the townspeople thought so too. Being an Alaskan was very important to most there. I thought playing the role of an Alaskan or man/husband was a bit stupid. Still do. I don't like role playing but even I do it more than sometimes. If Chris was to step up and pull the anchor I'd prolly take the rode from her and may even say "that's man's work". It would be kidding mostly as if she were bigger and stronger than me I'd let her do it w/o feeling odd about it. And she would be proud to be pulling the anchor. I'm blessed w a wife that loves to work. There are times when I wish she'd just take a rest though.

Don and angus 99,
I see now. I was making a statement I didn't realize I was making. Honest men and women living and working together naturally pitch in and do what they do best to "get er done". Or do what we CAN do if it's extremely oriented to man or woman. I help w the cooking rarely and she lands the boat rarely. We have decades of experience to one deed and are better at it but both of us could do the other job w a lot of practice. We've talked about giving Chris lots of practice at landings but never seem to get around to it. We just do what we do over time. She does WANT to land the boat more than I want to do the cooking though.

And Janice you're right about "listening" re the story about the galley up or down couple. Once in a while Chris would put in a plug for a new stove and I assumed her interest was rather casual. Wrong. When I finally bought and installed the new stove she was so happy w it I knew I had made a mistake not getting it done long before. See pic of her soon after I hooked up the new stove. And she likes the galley in the salon. Pic was taken on a perfect day in a perfect anchorage (Red Bay no end of POW Is) but I think it says "I love my new stove".
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:05 PM   #30
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Don and angus 99,
I see now. I was making a statement I didn't realize I was making. Honest men and women living and working together naturally pitch in and do what they do best to "get er done". Or do what we CAN do if it's extremely oriented to man or woman. I help w the cooking rarely and she lands the boat rarely. We have decades of experience to one deed and are better at it but both of us could do the other job w a lot of practice. We've talked about giving Chris lots of practice at landings but never seem to get around to it. We just do what we do over time. She does WANT to land the boat more than I want to do the cooking though.
All good, Eric. We have a similar approach to pitching in to get the job done . . . I just have a hard time matching my wife's 12 to 14-hour work days in the garden. The last thing I want to do is project our version of "normal" on anybody. Different strokes, as the song goes.
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:17 PM   #31
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You just have to look at the way Galaxy Girl was treated here.

Passagemaker and Trawler Forum over the last 15+ years has not been friendly and/or understanding of women.

GG, Galaxy Girl, has made on offer on a boat, and presently having a survey done. If you are interest there are several discussions on Cruise and Sail Forum, which has been more supporting.
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:33 PM   #32
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Passagemaker and Trawler Forum over the last 15+ years has not been friendly and/or understanding of women.
See, there's one of the key issues right there. Since when is an internet forum - which is really a voluntary collective of just about anybody - obliged to be especially "friendly and understanding" to a given slice of the membership? Imagine if I said such a thing individually - I don't like X Forum because they're not friendly and understanding to me. I'd sound like a big baby. Wah, you're not nice to me. We all have an obligation to be polite and courteous to all humans, but I think it's kind of silly to expect any group of random people who happen to have a common interest to recast their interaction patterns to suit a particular group, whatever the group might be.

Oh, and like a couple other posts, give me a break if you think women are generally nicer to each other than men. Like a post said above, try working in an organization of women - they can slice each other to shreds with a machete before lunch. Just in a different style.
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:37 PM   #33
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The broker thread was drifting into a pretty interesting topic before it closed: Why don't more women participate in TF discussions? I was posting the following, but it closed too quickly:

Why not simply ask our wives/significant others? Mine says it's a combination of excruciating technical detail that she would often feel ill-prepared to participate in, PLUS no desire to be in a pack of male dogs peeing on trees. (She can be pretty candid)

I imagine the women who DO participate would have some valuable insights as well.
You've made some assumptions about the gender of posters based on username

It's the internet - folks lie..
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:48 PM   #34
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You've made some assumptions about the gender of posters based on username

It's the internet - folks lie..
Only when the names come with pictures, which we all know can't be faked.

So, Janet, what's your real name?
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:00 PM   #35
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You've made some assumptions about the gender of posters based on username

It's the internet - folks lie..
I wouldn't be surprised that there are some women here using men's names.
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:05 PM   #36
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Wifey B: Now, we haven't been here long, but honestly haven't seen any women treated disrespectfully because of their sex. Don't know history. Only female we've seen treated rudely is GG. Wouldn't it be ironic to find out it's a guy? But I couldn't blame hers on sex.

I think maybe the topics don't interest some women, other's just aren't than enthusiastic. But the ones here seem to not be having any issues I am aware of.

I'm not jumping onto any little red bandwagon saying women haven't been welcome here until I see one politely enter and talk and get treated rudely.
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:08 PM   #37
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Only when the names come with pictures, which we all know can't be faked.

So, Janet, what's your real name?
We all need a little mystery....

My point is that I could be a sweaty palmed, 19 year old geeky guy and you really wouldn't have any way of knowing....
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:11 PM   #38
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My point is that I could be a sweaty palmed, 19 year old geeky guy and you really wouldn't have any way of knowing....
That happened to a friend of mine on a "different kind" of site.

If I thought that for a minute about this site, I'd demand my TF initiation fee back.
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:21 PM   #39
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Janet-if you really are a sweaty-palmed, 19 year old, geeky guy, you must look great with the dog in your purse!
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:24 PM   #40
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And Janice you're right about "listening" re the story about the galley up or down couple. Once in a while Chris would put in a plug for a new stove and I assumed her interest was rather casual. Wrong. When I finally bought and installed the new stove she was so happy w it I knew I had made a mistake not getting it done long before. See pic of her soon after I hooked up the new stove. And she likes the galley in the salon. Pic was taken on a perfect day in a perfect anchorage (Red Bay no end of POW Is) but I think it says "I love my new stove".
I'm looking at that beautiful sink -- much bigger than mine, with just a tad of wishing involved. That's a nice layout, open and airy.
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