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Old 03-02-2014, 04:25 PM   #41
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Whether for a day or all days, it's a home.
IMO - That gets sentence of the day award!
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:40 PM   #42
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With all due respect, these are all just terms. Calling them a modified V planing hull is accurate but it also brings different expectations to one person than another. All hulls are compromises. Yes, people wanted faster, but GB isn't by any means fast. Just faster or not as slow. I'm a huge fan of Grand Banks boats and their history although very disturbed that the future may not be as bright. Most of the Heritage models of recent years have a Ken Smith designed hull, although who designed them really isn't the issue. The 54 Heritage and 53 Aleutian hulls are newer designs.

Now the reality is that the 54 Heritage has a cruising speed of 17-18 knots. While that may be a planing hull that is not what you would normally associate with a planing boat. Partly it is because it is one of the heavier boats in class.

Now all of the designers and labeling is really irrelevant to the point that there are many different type boats that can be used for the type cruising the OP has in mind. GB is an excellent option as it will achieve speeds greater than displacement boats but can still be used comfortably at displacement speeds and, also, it will handle rougher conditions than many in it's range.
GB made a fundamental decision to design boats with planing hulls in 2005(Eastbays have always been planing). They enlisted Ray Hunt and Sparkman&Stephens to design these hulls...not Ken Smith which is where you are getting hung up. GB customers kept ordering their boats with bigger and bigger engines to go faster and faster. So GB gave them what they wanted. A more efficient way of doing that. Regardless of your "expectation of speed" as it relates to a planing hull, 17kts in a planing hull boat is more efficient than 17kts in a SD hulled boat all things being equal and assuming you are well over the "hump"(transition speed). Just keeping the FACTS straight. People's expectations(of speed) have nothing to do with hull forms.
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Old 03-03-2014, 06:37 AM   #43
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>Your hull is so close to a planing hull many (myself included) would argue that it is.

And if you repowered w two 3-71 engines in place of your 6-71 the difference in fuel economy could be a wash. Perhaps even favor the twin.<

The Navy designed my hull and selected the power.

As a Utility the hoisting weight was about 10 tons , but the boat was expected to carry a 10+ ton load at 10K -12K

Thats 1 nm/gal speed so the wide transom, but it sure is not where I cruise.

Although a run to 1800 is always fun , we put on a Victory at Sea tape and enjoy the ride , but seldom for long.

If my 6-71 died I would simply install a spare , here in my yard, and then sell the boat to a lobster guy.

The spare is turboed so of no use at 3 GPH. The existing engine has under 2000Hr total time , so change wont be for a long time .

I could also just sell the engine and bolt in a 2-71 or 3-71 from a low time gen set , although even if the fuel bill dropped by 25%-50% , changing just to get a lower burn would NEVER pay .
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:13 AM   #44
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"...even if the fuel bill dropped by 25%-50% , changing just to get a lower burn would NEVER pay .
I say tongue in cheek and complete agreement with you, Fred - - >

Following is somewhat hypothetical

Our really good condition, well maintained, and currently low hour (under 500 hrs each) Mercruisers have from 2500 to 4000 hours use left in em! (BTW, at an averaged 100 +/- hrs per year; that = 25 to 40 years engine life remaining. Which means, if we decide to keep our Tolly “basically forever” (which we know her stout build-out could withstand) we’d be from 88 to 103 yrs old before engine swap is required. Go Horsy! GO!!!!

Heck >>>> Even if I needed to change our 350 cid, 255 hp twin gassers to diesels right now, instead of replacing em with similar gassers when need for change actually happens (probably decades from now) the “savings” in diesel fuel expense would only take 80 yrs at 100 hrs annual use to recoup additional change over cost for diesel engines (that is if gas and diesel fuels remained comparatively same regarding % of product price variation).

BY FIGURING MARINE MECHANICS DOING COMPLETE INSTALLATIONS (if done by 120 +/- hours sweet equity, with paid assistants - cost and % difference between type engines for replacement would remain the same but installation cash cost would lessen for either, and, actual $$$ compensation time would lessen too)

1. Gasser replacement with similar power diesels: Overall Cost - $60,000 – lucky to be held to that amount

2. Gasser replacement with similar power gassers: Overall Cost - $20,000 – top end cost

BOAT USE COMPENSATION TIME FOR $40,000 PRICE DIFFERENCE (at an averaged 100 hrs annual use)

a. Gasoline use at 100 annual hours traveling at just below hull speed: 300 gallons X $5.00 = $1,500


b. Diesel use at 100 annual hours traveling at just below hull speed: 200 gallons X $5.00 = $1,000

Therefore Annual Fuel Savings = $500

Extra cost for diesel swap: $40,000 :- $500 annual fuel savings = 80 years to break even!

200 hrs annual use = less years to break even and on, and on it goes... Now, if you were to put 400 + hrs or more per year the breakeven point might become worth it... especially if you’re young and keep your boat for many, many years!

Moral of the story - - > When purchasing a used boat make damn sure the engines are in great condition – AND THEN – make damn sure you keep em that way!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:56 PM   #45
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Hey Art, this is one of my posts on page 1 of this thread. I know you know the dangers of gasoline and how to mitigate its risk. But just for unsuspecting people that are new to this stuff.....


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And if you are considering gas over diesel...... I have not owned diesel boats because of fuel economy. Fuel economy is about 4 down the list when it comes to advantages of diesel over gas. Ahead of that is carbon monoxide poisoning...explosion hazard....engine longevity....engine reliability....THEN fuel efficiency...okay, number 5.
My point being, their are other reasons to go diesel besides fuel economy. And IMO, more important reasons when life is at stake.
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:01 PM   #46
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Hey Art, this is one of my posts on page 1 of this thread. I know you know the dangers of gasoline and how to mitigate its risk. But just for unsuspecting people that are new to this stuff.....

My point being, their are other reasons to go diesel besides fuel economy. And IMO, more important reasons when life is at stake.

B - Baby! I could not agree with you more! Regarding your input about risks with gasoline on a boat if proper cautionary actions are not constantly adhered. And, for those who do not WELL Understand the supreme risk of life/death if gasoline explosion does happen aboard a boat they should not have a gasser! Diesel is much, much safer!

That said, and I’ve simply never heard the stats, I wonder how many gas powered boats (specifically inboards with permanent tanks) actually do explode each year. I'll bet the USCG or some insurance guru knows that number. Seems to me the boat fires I've heard of for quite some time had to do with diesel power boats that had fires started from other ignition sources; maybe even a propane or NG explosion?? I can’t recall reading of a gasoline powered inboard boat exploding – at least I haven’t heard of one for years... there must be at least some though. In the several decades I've been around marinas and/or out on the water I've never seen any boat actually "blow up"... but I have seen boat fires as well as boats in marinas leveled to waterline... not knowing if those were due to gasoline or not. In my very young years in NY I did see a runaway diesel engine on an old wooden fishing boat go crazy and the crew took too long to get her shut down... there was a fire started from that instance that the crew eventually extinguished.


Anyway, as you’ll notice in following quote from end of my post #44 – I believe that whether one purchases a gas or diesel powered boat this stands true!

“Moral of the story - - > When purchasing a used boat make damn sure the engines are in great condition – AND THEN – make damn sure you keep em em that way!”
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:41 PM   #47
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I have seen a boat explode with my own eyes and it was gruesome. We were about 1/4 mile away. A boat took a fuel drop from Boat US. The owner was somewhat perplexed why he had run out of fuel because he was sure he had enough. Well he did have enough...except it was in the bilge. After the fuel drop, he turned the key and BOOM. The Boat US boat got there first because he had just powered up. We got there right after. The explosion was pure "Hollywood". There was literally nothing left except what was raining out of the sky and the pieces floating in the water. Amazingly, no one died. But there were limbs lost and severe burns. I think lives were saved because everyone acted so quickly. The Boat US guy had everyone in his boat by the time we got there(we were in a 7kt boat) and was coordinating with USCG. By the time he made it to shore there was a Life Flight helicopter landing to scoop them up. Anyway, as you can tell, it left a lasting impression on me.
A few months later, we had one at the marina. I think there was gas in the bilge of a boat and someone tried to suck it up with a SHOPVAC????!!!!!!! Next time you run a shopvac, look at the vents that house the motor....you will see a nice little blue glow of sparks in there!!! I think somebody died on that one. Keith would know...it was only a dock or two over from him and he is the "mouthpiece" for the marina.

So it happens. And many times it is a combination of failures(as it usually is) that cause the accident. In that second case, the failure was the person's brain. But there is likely a lot people out there that would do something like that.

Boat US might have a database on something like this.
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Old 03-03-2014, 05:12 PM   #48
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I have seen a boat explode with my own eyes and it was gruesome....Boat US might have a database on something like this.
I saw the aftermath of a gas powered boat explosion, acting for 2 victims who survived, no burns injuries but multiple fractures of all limbs, deep infection sites from foreign bodies literally blasted into tissues as they were projected 20ft into the air. And a baby died.
It stays with me. I know lots of people say gasoline is safe, they are probably the ones with the high maintenance standards.
The fuel for my dinghy outboard, and the outboard, are lashed on deck. No way are they getting stored in the bilge.
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Old 03-03-2014, 05:41 PM   #49
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John Baker,

Do boats explode more often than the planes you fly? Probably but they both do explode.

Perhaps your flying makes you more aware of the danger.

In the 50s almost 100% of pleasure boats were gasoline powered. And now the fume detectors and other technology make driving a gasoline boat safer than ever. At least as safe as the operator.
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Old 03-03-2014, 05:57 PM   #50
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John Baker,

Do boats explode more often than the planes you fly? Probably but they both do explode.

Perhaps your flying makes you more aware of the danger.

In the 50s almost 100% of pleasure boats were gasoline powered. And now the fume detectors and other technology make driving a gasoline boat safer than ever. At least as safe as the operator.
As is always the case....it usually takes more than 1 failure to cause an accident(i.e.. a boat to explode). Sometimes, one of those failures are the operator's brain!
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:04 PM   #51
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John, Eric, Bruce - You guys are spot on... Gasoline Fume concentrations can become a Sudden Deadly Explosive and Carbon Monoxide can too quickly become a Silent Killer!

As you say: Gasoline powered boat is only as safe as its operator! I don't deny that for a second. Tell you how safe I play it (some call this super paranoid - but - IMO, that's their problem!)

1. When we first arrive to the boat: BEFORE any other person is allowed anywhere near alongside and BEFORE I plug into shore power.... I go aboard and whiff the air as I gently open slider, then I pull open port hatch to engine compartment and bend down while fluttering my hand upward from deeper in the compartment while still whiffing, then I turn on blower and whiff its outlet that is just outside and slightly to rear of port slider over the up galley sink. As long as those three read 100% clear to my whiffer-nose... I welcome all aboard.

I won’t start engine until many minutes (10 to 15) with blower on and I’ve whiffed blower outlet.

I run blower continuously while slow cruising (I use it while going slow cause there is not too much air draft created by engine compartment vents at 7 knots minus speed). We get going on a planeing cruise of 16 to 17 knots and blower is not needed... vents then create plenty of draft. But, I often leave blower on anyway. Why do I do this – because you just never know when a gasoline leak might occur???

While on hook seldom does an early morning go by while others still sleep that I haven’t at least opened port engine hatch and peered in with portable spotlight to see that all looks OK; also played the whiff game. Many mornings I climb down in and review everything... especially all three engines’ fuel lines, carbs, filters, fuel pumps, tanks (upper and lower ends).

Yup – Gasoline and its Explosive FUMES aboard boat can be ferociously dangerous to life and limb. However, correctly respected and looked after gasoline can act as a lamb that feeds inexpensive engines whose maintenance is minimal, can run slow without loading up, and whose exhaust odor is negligible.

Another important item to tend to while running any gas engine – Always have adequate ventilation in areas where persons are breathing. And, NEVER – I’ll say it again – NEVER allow a gas engine to run while going to sleep. Carbon Monoxide concentrations can build fast – THEY DO KILL... SILENTLY!
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:35 AM   #52
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IF gas was one bit as dangerous as the fear mongers claim ,

INSURANCE would be impossible to obtain.

While it doesnt have the Pinashe of diesel , for boaters than need under 200 cont HP (99% of trawlers) for a few hundred hours a year, the gas engine would be cheaper , counting ALL costs over a say 10 year period.

At replacement time 5X cheaper !
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:18 AM   #53
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I wonder what the stats are for home deaths concerning gasoline and carbon monoxide when compared to boating deaths?

Probably lower but I really have to say that unlike most accident categories my experience shows they really tend to fall into the extreme ends of the spectrum. The almost totally unavoidable to the almost obscenely stupid.

Unavoidable ones...or the really "have a better chance of getting hit by lightening ones"...

The last boat explosion I was directly involved with was a simple little 17' center console outboard. No blowers, no place to usually sniff, no gas in the rod holder...so what happened? I'm guessing tank filler hose issue as it happened at a fuel dock and an ignition key arc in the console....

Or the carbon monoxide death of the woman sleeping in the aft cabin and the USCG determined CO coming from the genset exhaust blew back and into the aft cabin sink drain and filled the cabin as she napped.

Then the obscenely stupid ones like a friend who burned his and a few other boats by pouring gas in the carb....or the CO deaths of kids swim platform surfing....

So to me..a few simple precautions like Art mentioned and gas isn't the "devil" some make it out to be.....because most of us do/would take the simple precautions...if you aren't that kind of person...then diesel is best for your future.
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:05 AM   #54
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I wonder what the stats are for home deaths concerning gasoline and carbon monoxide when compared to boating deaths?

Probably lower but I really have to say that unlike most accident categories my experience shows they really tend to fall into the extreme ends of the spectrum. The almost totally unavoidable to the almost obscenely stupid.



Or the carbon monoxide death of the woman sleeping in the aft cabin and the USCG determined CO coming from the genset exhaust blew back and into the aft cabin sink drain and filled the cabin as she napped.
Scott, I don't have the statistics, but cracked heat exchangers on furnaces and unvented heaters can be a source of carbon monoxide poisoning in the home. A good friend took ill at work. She went home, and parked her Cadillac in the basement. Only in her hurry to get to maybe the bathroom forgot to cut the car off. She laid on the couch, and never woke.

Two other friends died from CO escaping from a cracked exhaust elbow on a gasoline powered generator.

Probably CO detectors could have saved all three. It is such a shame as they were great people that were valuable assets to our society. I have CO detectors and smoke detectors everywhere.

The CO drawing into a boat through a sink drain should never happen. It is such an easy fix. If the sink drains through a hose just put a loop in the hose. It will act as trap for gases. Barring that a CO detector may have prevented the needless death.
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:13 AM   #55
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The scary part of boating is being in a marina asleep and some gas engine nearby (not one of yours) can be an issue for CO or the explosive variety and there's only so much you can do.

Yes CO detectors are a minimum and hopefully all you ever need to avoid CO poisoning....hopefully it's that simple.

As far as a loop in the drain...a lot of people don't like it on boats as the stagnant water gets bad sometimes...plus the bazzilion in one chance of a genset exhaust being concentrated enough to fill a cabin through a sink drain???? On that I even have to wonder how the USCG investigator signed the report without some serious doubts what people would think upon review.
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:46 AM   #56
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A chimney effect can draw a lot of air. In high rise construction we have to be very careful of draft stops at each floor and also smoke blocks. Once a chimney effect gets going it will spread fire or gas very quickly. I would suspect the your victim was in a lower cabin and maybe a door or ports opened in a cabin above. That could do it.
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Old 03-04-2014, 09:28 AM   #57
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[QUOTE=Art;217358]I say tongue in cheek and complete agreement with you, Fred - - >

Following is somewhat hypothetical

Our really good condition, well maintained, and currently low hour (under 500 hrs each) Mercruisers have from 2500 to 4000 hours use left in em! (BTW, at an averaged 100 +/- hrs per year; that = 25 to 40 years engine life remaining. Which means, if we decide to keep our Tolly “basically forever” (which we know her stout build-out could withstand) we’d be from 88 to 103 yrs old before engine swap is required. Go Horsy! GO!!!!

You only use your boat for 100 hours/year, I wouldn't consider that boating! No wonder your not concerned with fuel burn.
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:23 AM   #58
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[QUOTE=windmill29130;217600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
I say tongue in cheek and complete agreement with you, Fred - - >

Following is somewhat hypothetical

Our really good condition, well maintained, and currently low hour (under 500 hrs each) Mercruisers have from 2500 to 4000 hours use left in em! (BTW, at an averaged 100 +/- hrs per year; that = 25 to 40 years engine life remaining. Which means, if we decide to keep our Tolly “basically forever” (which we know her stout build-out could withstand) we’d be from 88 to 103 yrs old before engine swap is required. Go Horsy! GO!!!!

You only use your boat for 100 hours/year, I wouldn't consider that boating! No wonder your not concerned with fuel burn.
Hey, Windy - Ya gots ta read between the lines!

hy·po·thet·i·cal
adjective \ˌhī-pə-ˈthe-ti-kəl\

: involving or based on a suggested idea or theory: involving or based on a hypothesis
: not real : imagined as an example
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:36 AM   #59
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[QUOTE=Art;217609][QUOTE=windmill29130;217600]

Hey, Windy - Ya gots ta read between the lines!

hy·po·thet·i·cal
adjective \ˌhī-pə-ˈthe-ti-kəl\

: involving or based on a suggested idea or theory: involving or based on a hypothesis
: not real : imagined as an example[/QUOTE

Hypotheticals are like buttholes, everybody has one and they all stink!

In the words of the great Joe Friday "Just the facts Ma'am"
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:08 AM   #60
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[QUOTE=windmill29130;217613][QUOTE=Art;217609]
Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill29130 View Post

Hey, Windy - Ya gots ta read between the lines!

hy·po·thet·i·cal
adjective \ˌhī-pə-ˈthe-ti-kəl\

: involving or based on a suggested idea or theory: involving or based on a hypothesis
: not real : imagined as an example[/QUOTE

Hypotheticals are like buttholes, everybody has one and they all stink!

In the words of the great Joe Friday "Just the facts Ma'am"
Take a break wind!

Hypothesis is the beginning of all developments as well as supporting ladder steps to reach conclusions during development... Without hypothesis most of what humans have today would not have come to fruition. Hypothesis and imagination have close correlation. Just imagine where we'd be if hypothesis had not begun TF in the first place - not having this chat, that's for sure!

Some people fit definitions to a "T" - And that ain't hy-po-thet-i-cal at all!!

rude
adjective \ˈrüd\

: not having or showing concern or respect for the rights and feelings of other people : not polite
: relating to sex or other body functions in a way that offends others
: happening suddenly in usually an unpleasant or shocking way

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