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Old 09-14-2015, 07:47 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
I walk around my boat all the time and never feel like the rails are going to bend or break.
Well...that's not really when a liferail is tested. It's when the vessel is moving in a seaway and someone is thrown against it. Tearing out is one scenario, flipping over the top is another.

That 31" on the OA 50 isn't really that high - there's an OA 52 in the next slip that has 33" rails. And the USCG minimum for an inspected vessel is 36".

I generally like my guests, but I really love my wife and grandson. My rails are (now) 1.25" and as high as I could make them. You may feel differently about your passengers - that's your prerogative as master of your vessel.

Edit: I showed this post to my wife and she said "so you made another enemy". That wasn't my intention - I just get a little snarky sometimes.
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Old 09-14-2015, 07:47 PM   #42
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"Love to see documentation on this (excessive chop, high moisture with blistering, etc)."


Hello Pau Hana - You and I know that there is no documentation that can be produced. But if anyone ever really needs to have information on the larger Bayliner boats I do have some still photos and a video of the layup being done back in 1995 as well as the layup schedule from Bayliner. That is all besides the fact that when I lift my boat out of the water each season the hull is just about perfect even while it is still wet.
There are some major manufacturers that have continued to use a wood and balsa core layup both above and below the waterline well after Bayliner moved away from that practice back in 1991-1992. Some still use much more 'wood' in their layups even today - whether of not that is 'good' or 'terrible' is left up to the reader.

Hope this helps
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Old 09-14-2015, 08:14 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by refugio View Post
Well...that's not really when a liferail is tested. It's when the vessel is moving in a seaway and someone is thrown against it. Tearing out is one scenario, flipping over the top is another.

That 31" on the OA 50 isn't really that high - there's an OA 52 in the next slip that has 33" rails. And the USCG minimum for an inspected vessel is 36".

I generally like my guests, but I really love my wife and grandson. My rails are (now) 1.25" and as high as I could make them. You may feel differently about your passengers - that's your prerogative as master of your vessel.

Edit: I showed this post to my wife and she said "so you made another enemy". That wasn't my intention - I just get a little snarky sometimes.
Don't worry you are not making an enemy of me. I'm actually enjoying our little exchange.

I agree, the rail could be higher.

My method of avoiding risk is not to go out on the front deck during rough weather. During nice weather we sit on the couch and relax sometimes.

So to continue here... I think and I could be wrong but I heard somewhere that the Bayliner 47 was among the most popular in terms of lumbers large motor yacht ever made with something like a thousand units sold. Again I could be wrong about that but that's another issue.

Based on the large number made, how many deaths or even injuries have been recorded over the last two or arguably three decades of service because of people fell overboard over the "unsafe" rails.
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Old 09-14-2015, 08:26 PM   #44
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I'm in love with strong, high, 1.25" handrails. Their a must.

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Old 09-14-2015, 09:52 PM   #45
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I was in the yard today to re-launch our boat and take it to its slip before heading to work in Seattle and heard an exchange in the office that might be of interest regarding Bayliners.

Two customers were discussing the upcoming hauling of a Bayliner with the yard's scheduler. I don't know which model but it was apparently a large one as they were talking about using the 150 ton Travelift because of the number of straps that machine has.

One of the customers had a logo on his shirt that I couldn't read. I don't believe either one of them was the owner of the boat. They both talked like people who were making arrangements to have something done to the boat.

The discussion was about how many lifting straps to use and where to put them. The concern was to lift the boat without putting a strap under the forward part of the hull.

The fellow with the logo on his shirt made a comment about how you never want to put a sling under the forward part of a Bayliner. The other fellow agreed and held up his hands in a representation of the curved forward part of a hull and then flexed them in and out.

Logo guy laughed and nodded, and the yard scheduler seemed to understand what they were talking about because he then said no worries, they would use x-number of straps and put them here, here, and here.

That's all I know. But I have never heard anyone refer to a Bayliner's hull being overly flexible before, not that I have heard much about the structure of a Bayliner hull one way or the other. But it was a rather surprising thing to hear being discussed.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:10 PM   #46
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Rails 36 1/2 inches high, tops are 2 7/8 inches by 1 3/8 inches,
stanchions are 1 3/8 inch.
Nice and solid.

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Old 09-14-2015, 10:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Marin View Post
I was in the yard today to re-launch our boat and take it to its slip before heading to work in Seattle and heard an exchange in the office that might be of interest regarding Bayliners.

Two customers were discussing the upcoming hauling of a Bayliner with the yard's scheduler. I don't know which model but it was apparently a large one as they were talking about using the 150 ton Travelift because of the number of straps that machine has.

One of the customers had a logo on his shirt that I couldn't read. I don't believe either one of them was the owner of the boat. They both talked like people who were making arrangements to have something done to the boat.

The discussion was about how many lifting straps to use and where to put them. The concern was to lift the boat without putting a strap under the forward part of the hull.

The fellow with the logo on his shirt made a comment about how you never want to put a sling under the forward part of a Bayliner. The other fellow agreed and held up his hands in a representation of the curved forward part of a hull and then flexed them in and out.

Logo guy laughed and nodded, and the yard scheduler seemed to understand what they were talking about because he then said no worries, they would use x-number of straps and put them here, here, and here.

That's all I know. But I have never heard anyone refer to a Bayliner's hull being overly flexible before, not that I have heard much about the structure of a Bayliner hull one way or the other. But it was a rather surprising thing to hear being discussed.
My boat has two factory marked strap locations, one forward, one aft.

There are only two larger sizes ever made, the 5288 and the 5788
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:45 PM   #48
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For whatever reason these two guys wanted at least three straps on the boat they were scheduling to be hauled out. They seemed to be making a big deal out of providing enough support for the hull.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:56 PM   #49
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Lots of irrelevant detail in your story, Marin.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:12 PM   #50
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Why do all the brokers I talk to advise me to avoid Bayliner and Meridian boats?
My first thought: they haven't any to sell. Is that a recommendation!
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:31 PM   #51
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The fact is that the large Bayliners sell themselves.

for a quarter of a million or less you get...
  • Modern construction, including decks, engines, the whole works.
  • Three staterooms
  • Two full baths, including a bath tub.
  • A huge salon
  • A huge pilothouse
  • A large covered cockpit
  • A boat deck big enough for a 13' RIB and factory stock with a 750 lb crane. plus seating for 10 if you want with running water and fridge.
  • 600nm of range
  • Speed to actually get somewhere and back in a weekend
  • Seakeeping ability for any coastal cruising you want
  • The list of factory standard stuff goes on and on. From the trash smasher, to the built in washer dryer, to the full sized refrigerator.
Nope, say what you want about the large Bayliners, but try to find a more capable boat in the quarter million and less category, that isn't 40years old and will for sure pass a survey.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:32 PM   #52
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Lifting larger boats in a travel lift is a great deal more complex than it might appear. While more straps may be required for the tenderness of an old wood hull, it can also be required for the load on the strap. Placement is critical to balance the load on the lift, support the hull properly under a heavy section (engine and fuel tanks), and making sure that undo stress isn't exerted on the hull by having the foward and rear straps too far apart. What may appear as the bow flexing up from a strap to far forward, may in reality be too great a distance between forward and rear straps with too much weight in the middle.

But hey, if it's not your boat or boat yard it's easy to be an expert......no skin in the game.

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Old 09-14-2015, 11:46 PM   #53
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No expert, and no skin in the game, but a quick Google search indicates that flexing is a concern with 4588s and that more than two straps may be used and spreader bars should be used.

Seems like a fairly reliable source:

http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/in...s-lifting-4588

Pilothouseking has even witnessed them oil-canning.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:47 PM   #54
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I agree, the rail could be higher.



My method of avoiding risk is not to go out on the front deck during rough weather.
Sometimes you don't have that option. Like when your anchor hold-down fails. Or you inadvertently deploy the anchor. Or you're coming alongside another vessel. Or maybe picking up a mooring. Or...

Nobody would want to go outside in poor conditions but sometimes it's necessary. Just like I'm sure you must carry an EPIRB and immersion suits - you hope never to need them.
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Old 09-15-2015, 02:07 AM   #55
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Lots of irrelevant detail in your story, Marin.
I'm assuming logo guy was from a brokerage or a shop of some sort or the local dealer that handles Sea Ray and Meridian and used Bayliners. The point is they both seemed to be very familiar with the brand and the boats.

I'm not going to just say I heard two guys talking about Bayliners. There were some reasons why their comments might-- might-- have some credibility, although I would be very surprised to learn Bayliner hulls are as bendy as they seemed to be implying.
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Old 09-15-2015, 02:22 AM   #56
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Chiming in again. Love this thread. You can bash any boat ever made, because someone, somewhere found a way to break one. Rather than talk about conversations overheard, or a guy who knew a guy who had a bad Bayliner, let's look at facts.

1. No insurance carrier charges more to insure a Bayliner than any other boat. If Bayliners were more likely to break, sink, or cause harm, there would be a pricing differential.
2. Blistering. Bayliner yachts have no more blistering issues than other production yacht. Less than some if we include Uniflite.
3. Boat design is an exercise in trade offs. The salon in my 4788 is far bigger and well- lit than a 45-50 foot Ocean Alexander. I happily trade less room to walk around the outside of the boat, which I rarely need to do, for a nice, big salon for entertaining, which I do a lot.
4. Brand name components. I have Cummins engines, Hurth transmissions, Faria gauges, Perko fittings, etc. Bayliner got better price breaks due to volume and passed the savings on. That means better value.
5. Interior design. I don't think any manufacturer did a better job of designing interiors and storage than Bayliner.
6. Resale value. I have a snarky friend who told me Bayliner built disposable boats. He sinks more money into keeping his Carver afloat than I do, year in and year out. His boat is 16 feet shorter than mine. Here in the PNW I see Sea Rays selling for the same dough as a similar year and size Bayliner. This summer I saw more 10-20 year old Bayliners on the water than any other boat. They are holding up pretty darned well.

So, yes, I am a fan of Bayliner yachts. Especially my 4788! 😎
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Old 09-15-2015, 02:24 AM   #57
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I think what gave Bayliner their bad reputation was their smaller boats. A friend of mine watched a 19-21 foot outboard Bayliner break up in storm waves coming home from Anclote Key (west coast of FL) about 15 years ago.
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Old 09-15-2015, 07:44 AM   #58
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I think what gave Bayliner their bad reputation was their smaller boats. A friend of mine watched a 19-21 foot outboard Bayliner break up in storm waves coming home from Anclote Key (west coast of FL) about 15 years ago.
Always "a friend of mine", any first hand accounts here? I have to disagree with the above, I had a 1984 16' Bay that I fished for 11 years on Lake Ontario. This boat was out in weather many times that no 16' should have been in. I did have problems with seats breaking lose, cabin bulkhead coming lose, but never any issue with the hull being compromised. Moved from that boat to a 24' Bay, made many crossings on Lake Ontario in the worst of weather with no hull issues.

Agree that the smaller Bayliner boat quality did improve in the mid 90's, but the price also increased significantly.
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Old 09-15-2015, 07:53 AM   #59
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No expert, and no skin in the game, but a quick Google search indicates that flexing is a concern with 4588s and that more than two straps may be used and spreader bars should be used.

Seems like a fairly reliable source:

Bayliner Owners Club - BOC Forum - Topic: Problems lifting 4588 (1/1)

Pilothouseking has even witnessed them oil-canning.
I have no doubt that the hull flexes. It's not built to the strength of a passage maker. The point I did a poor job of explaining was that you can make many boats flex by picking them up wrong. Whether it's considered a structural problem, is reflected by insurance rates as already mentioned.

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Old 09-15-2015, 08:56 AM   #60
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OK, I'll bite. What do they tell you to not avoid?
The usual standards: Kadey Krogen, Grand Banks, Nordhavn.
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