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Old 08-12-2014, 04:32 PM   #101
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You don't give up your constitutional rights.

The boarding is a limited safety inspection...no "search" of "personal" areas like closets or drawers of refrigerators are allowed (freezers, coolers an fridges can be inspected by wildlife (not sure if you have to open them...but they will detain till a warrant is produced for sure).

LEO's can enter a home and remove you and personal property for domestic stuff with a telephone warrant on extraordinarily scant info.

If you think USCG boarding are boarder line constitutional...you need to have been a victim of a lot of other agency jurisdiction over you.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:00 PM   #102
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You don't give up your constitutional rights.

The boarding is a limited safety inspection...no "search" of "personal" areas like closets or drawers of refrigerators are allowed (freezers, coolers an fridges can be inspected by wildlife (not sure if you have to open them...but they will detain till a warrant is produced for sure).

LEO's can enter a home and remove you and personal property for domestic stuff with a telephone warrant on extraordinarily scant info.

If you think USCG boarding are boarder line constitutional...you need to have been a victim of a lot of other agency jurisdiction over you.
Actually, the 4th Amendment does not apply to border crossings. No warrant is necessary for a search, and no probable cause, articulable suspicion, etc. is required for a search. That border exception applies to boats in coastal waters, not just at the border.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:10 PM   #103
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I think the vast majority of boarding and most people are talking about are either in inland waters or coastal with no expectation the LEO would think you were outside US waters. These would be the typical USCG safety boarding.

Border search exception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Border searches more invasive than "routine" require some suspicion. See the section below.
Despite federal law allowing certain federal agents to conduct suspicionless search and seizures within 100 miles of the border,[5] the Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies only at international borders and their functional equivalent (such as international airports).[4]

The U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Special Agents, and U.S. Coast Guard officers (E4 grade and above) who are all customs officers (those tasked with enforcing Title 19 of the United States Code) with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, are permitted to search travelers and their belongings at the American border without probable cause or a warrant.[6] Pursuant to this authority, customs officers may generally stop and search the property of any traveler entering or exiting the United States at random, or even based largely on ethnic profiles.[7]
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Old 08-12-2014, 06:10 PM   #104
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I think the vast majority of boarding and most people are talking about are either in inland waters or coastal with no expectation the LEO would think you were outside US waters. These would be the typical USCG safety boarding.
Probably depends on where you are. There is no requirement that LEO "think you were outside US waters", it is enough if they find you in the border zone. Note that USCG (and delegated LEO) has much more discretion on water than on land. Bottom line though, 4th Amendment protections against warrantless searches don't apply in coastal waters.
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Old 08-12-2014, 06:20 PM   #105
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Back in the pre-TSA, DHS, etc, days, your boat or airplane could get intensively searched for drugs, whatever. There was enough fuss generated by "we, the people" that that sort of thing stopped. We have owned our Californian since 2005, cruising mainly on the Chesapeake, but with a 4 month ICW trip to Marathon & back. We have experienced one CG boarding in that time. It was professional &, actually, kind of funny. Lots of "yessir's "on our part, & lots of"say, captain" on their part. Both parties seemed to learn something, & we all parted peacefully. The M60 was manned, but pointed well away. No hassle at all on during the ICW trip, altho' we did see quite a few CG RIB's on the water. As to the "why's " of boarding: perhaps that would depend on the local units orders of the day. Don't worry, be happy, be prepared, & go boating
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:26 PM   #106
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Probably depends on where you are. There is no requirement that LEO "think you were outside US waters", it is enough if they find you in the border zone. Note that USCG (and delegated LEO) has much more discretion on water than on land. Bottom line though, 4th Amendment protections against warrantless searches don't apply in coastal waters.
Knowing the USCG policy on boardings intimately. I doubt they would abuse the privilege of their authority.

If you were not reasonably a "border crosser" or coming in from overseas...they would risk losing that authority over trumped up boardings.

You are correct that in the "zone" you are free game..but I know the USCG has protected their authority to board with due diligence for ever.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:36 PM   #107
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Again, this may be regional, but I note that your city is Avalon. If that is Avalon, California, your experience can't be much different than mine -- the USCG does its job by boarding whomever they want whenever they want. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe there is any legal requirement, or even USCG policy, to board only when there is a reasonable belief that a crossing has occurred. (Note, the rules for land are different and cannot be analogized to border searches on the water.) I have been boarded (and searched) plenty of times, including times that I was not out of US waters, but have no problem with that. Still, lots of people are boarded, and feel put upon and do complain. Even so, I don't think the Coast Guard's authority is in any danger of being diminished, at least not for political reasons and the constitutional soundness of that authority is beyond reproach.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:04 PM   #108
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If your boat is tied to a dock before the USCG was deciding whether to board, the 4th Amendment applies and the boarder search exception does not.

Actually, I think this is true. I have never seen a yacht get boarded while tied up. That is to say, having been secured, prior to the USCG coming on scene. (As opposed to just got tied up after transiting an area) I know commercial vessels get randomly boarded for inspections (safety regulatory port state visits) while tied up. But conversely, these only happen while secured at a dock or anchorage.

The interesting part is, the vessel is secured, once cocktail hour starts, open container laws do not apply. Unless you get an over zealous county Mountie who is feeling his oats.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:05 PM   #109
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When the USCG boat has a large machine gun on the front and six large men with guns board your boat, the choices are slim.
We are on a sad slope, giving up our rites and think we are being law abiding patriots.... Machine guns to check a poop valve.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:21 PM   #110
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Being an outsider in this conversation I am interested to know, has it always been like this in your part of the world.

For those of you boating in the seventies and eighties were you subject to searches with the authorities manning machine guns etc, or is this a new post 911 development?
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:37 PM   #111
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Being an outsider in this conversation I am interested to know, has it always been like this in your part of the world.

For those of you boating in the seventies and eighties were you subject to searches with the authorities manning machine guns etc, or is this a new post 911 development?
Andy, back in the 70s the USCG was doing search and rescue missions including towing services for recreational boaters. That is no longer the case except in life threatening situations. They have relinquished most of their services to recreational boaters to commercial companies. Since the USCG moved from the Department of Defense to the Department of Homeland Security things have changed drastically. They have become more like police. The Patriot Act has caused us to give up many of our freedoms. When freedoms are curtailed the terrorists are winning.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:45 PM   #112
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" The Patriot Act has caused us to give up many of our freedoms. When freedoms are curtailed the terrorists are winning."

Agreed
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:04 PM   #113
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so many errors...so little motivation to answer.

First the border croosing exclusion...sure...the USCG still boards any place any time but under different guidelines.

The USCG hasn't been part of the DoD forever...last was Transportation, before that Treasury and now homeland security.

How many LEOs going into an unknown situation in a normal type community have been gunned down by all sorts of people. So the USCG occasionally has a show of force on the water...BIG FING DEAL... around here there aren't even long guns displayed for normal boardings...some of you need to get a grip with "boating around the country"...your backyard isn't like every place.

While the USCG has some jurisdiction while you are tied to a dock..normal safety boardings will almost NEVER happen at the dock...because there's no jurisdiction for safety stuff unless underway..for some things yes....but many may involve a warrant that is or maybe isn't obtained.

Avalon, NJ is my homeport.

Usually the first to complain about lost freedoms are the same pantswetters when anything goes wrong that involves them.

Did I miss anyone or anything????
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:15 PM   #114
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The "Patriot Act" has to be the most ironically named piece of legislation in history. But lest we lapse into a political debate, in answer to the factual question a few posts back, as a teenager and 20's in the 1980's boating and sailing around Long Island Sound, I can't remember any boardings ever, for any reason, by the CG or any other agency, fed, state or local. We even swam in the warm water of the nuke plant on the Connecticut River, never challenged, never stopped. We did get our safety equipment, registration, and everything else checked by the CG Aux for the sticker at the beginning of each season, but only because that was a sensible thing to do. So in answer to the question, yes, drastic change, a completely different environment now. Open America is gone. When I'm an old coot I'll tell young people amazing stories of how it used to be in the olden days. They'll think I'm just a sentimental old geezer with rose colored glasses on my memories of relaxed freedom.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:20 PM   #115
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Losing freedoms one at a time is easy. It doesn't seem to hurt too much. When you try to get them back it is usually too late. I do not like the slow erosion of our freedoms. The fact that most people are complacent about it is not a comfort at all. If I say anymore I'll be sent to OTDE.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:21 PM   #116
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The "Patriot Act" has to be the most ironically named piece of legislation in history. But lest we lapse into a political debate, in answer to the factual question a few posts back, as a teenager and 20's in the 1980's boating and sailing around Long Island Sound, I can't remember any boardings ever, for any reason, by the CG or any other agency, fed, state or local. We even swam in the warm water of the nuke plant on the Connecticut River, never challenged, never stopped. We did get our safety equipment, registration, and everything else checked by the CG Aux for the sticker at the beginning of each season, but only because that was a sensible thing to do. So in answer to the question, yes, drastic change, a completely different environment now. Open America is gone. When I'm an old coot I'll tell young people amazing stories of how it used to be in the olden days. They'll think I'm just a sentimental old geezer with rose colored glasses on my memories of relaxed freedom.
USCG safety boardings started long before the patriot act...it was in response to do gooders who thought they needed to control the lives of others...it wasn't the USCG or the government in general that pushed for it...it was politicians pressured by the media and citizens who lost loved ones and for all kinds of reasons thought that the world should change for them.

I was there and in charge of small boat station operations from the mid 80's to the late 1990s and you wouldn't believe the changes handed down.....I can only thank my lucky stars they forced me out long before 9/11 and the total knee jerk reaction of so many political thoughts.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:29 PM   #117
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How many LEOs going into an unknown situation in a normal type community have been gunned down by all sorts of people. So the USCG occasionally has a show of force on the water...
And the risk is exceptionally high in situations where the boat they're checking could have drugs aboard or even be smuggling people.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:53 PM   #118
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And the risk is exceptionally high in situations where the boat they're checking could have drugs aboard or even be smuggling people.
Last time I was boarded my boat was anchored off a swimming beach getting ready to have lunch.... Not smuggling anything,,, drugs humm maybe some BenGay.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:59 PM   #119
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Regarding boardings by the Coast Guard, will someone please tell me exactly which freedoms they have lost?
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:03 PM   #120
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I'm going to OTDE.
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