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Old 08-11-2014, 11:33 PM   #81
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As a lifelong boater and full time liveaboard...I don't get peoples aversion to safety boarding's..the ones by the USCG are usually fun if you make them that,

Be adverse to them and you get what you sow...
I totally agree. I've boated all my life on lakes and game wardens stopped people all the time. Now at some point they all knew me and no longer stopped me. I just don't have a problem with being stopped or boarded by the USCG. Plus I'm smart enough to accept some things as a fact of life. Oh, and for the record, if I get stopped while driving a car, I say "yes, sir" a lot and treat them with great respect and have never had a problem.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:58 AM   #82
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The USCG boarded them . . . and reminded them they needed at least two sober operators.
Two? Really? Since when?
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:59 AM   #83
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My husband has been on a boarded vessel a few times. Two I recall the circumstances. 1) they were motoring a sailboat home from a race and it was around 2am. Basically the USCG asked what they were doing out there at that hour. USCG were quite nice and it went quickly, no issues. Perhaps, like on the highway, they are concerned about drunk driving at that hour. 2) they were motoring a sailboat home from a race and had stopped at a waterfront bar for a few drinks on the way. The USCG boarded them just off the bar and reminded them they needed at least two sober operators. USCG were quite nice and it went quickly, no issues. Perhaps, like on a highway, they are concerned about people driving drunk when leaving a bar.

The difference between the highway and the waterway comes in the fact that an officer needs reasonable suspicion that a violation of the traffic or criminal code has occurred when driving a motor vehicle. There are a few ways that a safety check can be implemented in most states but the courts have ruled very specifically on these.

I think the issue with the USCG is that many people don't like being stopped for no reason. If random, individual stops not based upon a violation occurred on the roadways all hell would break out from the driving public.
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Old 08-12-2014, 06:10 AM   #84
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Why Boardings?

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Originally Posted by gwkiwi;

I think the issue with the USCG is that many people don't like being stopped for no reason. If random, individual stops not based upon a violation occurred on the roadways all hell would break out from the driving public.
The difference is: If a car has a safety violation it simply coasts to a stop. Or pulls over.

If a boat has an 'incident' it usually involves gravity and sinking. Big difference. The CG is using statistic based justification for its boarding record. I can't recall the numbers but there is a certain percentage (pretty high) of violations for yachts. Granted some of the violations are petty. But others are directly addressed by USCode: Flares, fire extinguishers, PFDs, and backfire flame arresters. (To name a few). Some warrant the equivalent to a warning. Others warrant termination of a voyage. Yet others warrant arrest ( oui) on the spot.

My pet peeve: Personally, I think that if a vessel is operated with the incorrect lights at night they should be forced to anchor for the night, and the operator should be forbidden from operating at night ever again. Period.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:04 AM   #85
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I think that if a vessel is operated with the incorrect lights at night they should be forced to anchor for the night, and the operator should be forbidden from operating at night ever again. Period.


This assumes the regulations are perfect for every vessel and in every situation.

When ocean sailing we use a white 360 bright light at the masthead.

The red & green lenses loose 88% to 92% of their energy just heating the lense.

In blue water mostly the big guys just need to SEE you to avoid you..

A white 360 could be a stern light, an anchored boat or a smaller , under 7 meter boat.

The big guys will avoid the white light easily , as we are 6K (at best) , and there 18-28K.

May not please the rules worshiping folks , but so far being 10 meters , not 7, has caused no close calls.

Not being run down is more important to me than a paper violation.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:15 AM   #86
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"The difference between the highway and the waterway comes in the fact that an officer needs reasonable suspicion that a violation of the traffic or criminal code has occurred when driving a motor vehicle."

Hmm, in our area, the police often set up road blocks and check safety and registration. No need for suspicion of a violation, everyone is stopped. Been stopped several times this way. All went well.

We were boarded last month and it all went well. I guess if I were getting boarded all the time it would be a problem but as long as it is once a year or so it is a good experience. The CG is always professional and kind.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:56 AM   #87
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Why Boardings?

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This assumes the regulations are perfect for every vessel and in every situation.



When ocean sailing we use a white 360 bright light at the masthead.
Again, the incorrect lights may 'make you feel better'. But they show a completely different set of conditions to others. ?Perfect? But people can't simply go 're interpret' the rules to their own beliefs. A COMPLETE reading of the rules would give you examples of the correct lights you should be showing, along with proper lookout responsibilities to remove the chance of collision.

Here's a couple of options specifically enabled by Colregs.

A red over green LED light in addition to the sidelights; with (although labeled 2 mile) they have far in excess of that

A white strobe light shown in time to prevent collision.

Or (in lieu of the other lights) a tri color LED on the masthead well clear of the seas?

Instead of you showing (depending on aspect) a power driven vessel, A vessel at anchor. Or (more likely) a sailing vessel under power as well as sail. Showing the correct lights does a whole lot more than let others know what you are doing. It shows your competence as well. By you CHOOSING to be improperly lit says more about your professionalism than you realize.

And comparing apples to oranges 10M versus <7m is further erroneous. As a less than 7 M can simply 'show a light in time to avoid collision'. Having a white anchor light on all the time is hardly the same as a 7M 'showing'.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:07 AM   #88
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[QOUTE] This assumes the regulations are perfect for every vessel and in every situation.



When ocean sailing we use a white 360 bright light at the masthead.

Again, the incorrect lights may 'make you feel better'. But they show a completely different set of conditions to others. ?Perfect? But people can't simply go 're interpret' the rules to their own beliefs. A COMPLETE reading of the rules would give you examples of the correct lights you should be showing, along with proper lookout responsibilities to remove the chance of collision.

Here's a couple of options specifically enabled by Colregs.

A red over green LED light in addition to the sidelights; with (although labeled 2 mile) they have far in excess of that

A white strobe light shown in time to prevent collision.

Or (in lieu of the other lights) a tri color LED on the masthead well clear of the seas?

Instead of you showing (depending on aspect) a power driven vessel, A vessel at anchor. Or (more likely) a sailing vessel under power as well as sail. Showing the correct lights does a whole lot more than let others know what you are doing. It shows your competence as well. By you CHOOSING to be improperly lit says more about your professionalism than you realize.
You suggestion of a strobe got me thinking back...

For inland it is used as a distress signal and this is what I remember about strobes in general....

Rule 36 - Signals to Attract Attention

If necessary to attract the attention of another vessel, any vessel may make light or sound signals that cannot be mistaken for any signal authorized elsewhere in these Rules, or may direct the beam of her searchlight in the direction of the danger, in such a way as not to embarrass any vessel. [Any light to attract the attention of another vessel shall be such that it cannot be mistaken for any aid to navigation. For the purpose of this Rule the use of high intensity intermittent or revolving lights, such as strobe lights, shall be avoided].
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:31 AM   #89
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Why Boardings?

Avoided, not altogether prohibited. The caveat: in time to avoid collision. But this of course means an adequate lookout is manned (and capable of determining risk)

And thinking further back, I highly doubt the sailing vessel doing 6 knots would be in inland waters with a ship doing 18 knots as described Again. Over simplification does not equal violation of the rules is justified.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:03 AM   #90
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There was nothing fun about my last boarding. They picked the worst spot. A narrow shoaling, twisting part of the water way . A bit further and there would have been plenty of room.

The boarding itself went fine because we keep all papers in one place.
The safety inspection by the auxiliary was of absolutly no interest to the boarding crew.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:01 AM   #91
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"The difference between the highway and the waterway comes in the fact that an officer needs reasonable suspicion that a violation of the traffic or criminal code has occurred when driving a motor vehicle."

Hmm, in our area, the police often set up road blocks and check safety and registration. No need for suspicion of a violation, everyone is stopped. Been stopped several times this way. All went well.

We were boarded last month and it all went well. I guess if I were getting boarded all the time it would be a problem but as long as it is once a year or so it is a good experience. The CG is always professional and kind.

That is one of the exemptions that I lead in my previous post where the courts have ruled it is OK to stop for no suspicion as long as there is no discrimination in who is stopped therefore all vehicles going past a particular point can be stopped legally for a motor safety inspection or a DUI check point etc but the key is everyone must be stopped.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:21 AM   #92
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As a lifelong boater and full time liveaboard...I don't get peoples aversion to safety boarding's..the ones by the USCG are usually fun if you make them that,

Be adverse to them and you get what you sow...

Amen. The USCG is welcome on my vessel at any time!

Now others, like the water patrol and/or Shariff department, I ask why they want to board. If they state a safety inspection, I point to my USCG sticker, provide them a copy of the USCG inspection paperwork and they say thank you and pull away.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:42 AM   #93
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That is one of the exemptions that I lead in my previous post where the courts have ruled it is OK to stop for no suspicion as long as there is no discrimination in who is stopped therefore all vehicles going past a particular point can be stopped legally for a motor safety inspection or a DUI check point etc but the key is everyone must be stopped.
This is a nit correction. Unless the courts have changed the law, again, at a checkpoint, vehicles must be stopped per the approved check point plan. This could mean every vehicle, every other vehicle, every third vehicle, etc. Nit difference.

The whole point of the approve plan is about avoiding the D Word or any hint there of, as you say.

Also, anyone AVOIDING the checkpoint can be pulled over.

To be fair, a vehicle check point is the about the closest comparison to boat inspections but the boat inspection is different. A more direct comparison is that of an officer randomly pulling over a car for a safety inspection. That does not occur since it would be illegal.

Another more basic difference is that a boat can be someone's house yet it can be searched without a warrant. There is some case law regarding RVs and searches but the reality is that an officer really should get a warrant to search an RV or a car, otherwise they risk getting any found evidence tossed out of court.

However, law enforcement could board and search my boat and there is nothing I can legally do to prevent said search. If they find contraband it almost certainly will be admissible in court since this has been upheld in many but not all cases. This sorta makes sense if I am arriving from overseas but I wonder if there is case law on such searches happening on a landlocked lake.

There is a great four part article about Fourth Amendment rights and boating on this link, Coast Guard Boardings and Your Fourth Amendment Rights, Part 1 | Sailfeed.

I do wonder about the legality of fining a boat owner because they had not locked off a holding tank valve which was discovered in a boating safety inspection. The unlocked value is not a safety issue but is an offense that was found as part of a safety inspection aka warrant less search... I wonder if someone has fought this in court? They better have deep pockets and/or get the ACLU to defend them.

Later,
Dan
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:53 AM   #94
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This is a nit correction. Unless the courts have changed the law, again, at a checkpoint, vehicles must be stopped per the approved check point plan. This could mean every vehicle, every other vehicle, every third vehicle, etc. Nit difference.

The whole point of the approve plan is about avoiding the D Word or any hint there of, as you say.

Also, anyone AVOIDING the checkpoint can be pulled over.

To be fair, a vehicle check point is the about the closest comparison to boat inspections but the boat inspection is different. A more direct comparison is that of an officer randomly pulling over a car for a safety inspection. That does not occur since it would be illegal.

Another more basic difference is that a boat can be someone's house yet it can be searched without a warrant. There is some case law regarding RVs and searches but the reality is that an officer really should get a warrant to search an RV or a car, otherwise they risk getting any found evidence tossed out of court.

However, law enforcement could board and search my boat and there is nothing I can legally do to prevent said search. If they find contraband it almost certainly will be admissible in court since this has been upheld in many but not all cases. This sorta makes sense if I am arriving from overseas but I wonder if there is case law on such searches happening on a landlocked lake.

There is a great four part article about Fourth Amendment rights and boating on this link, Coast Guard Boardings and Your Fourth Amendment Rights, Part 1 | Sailfeed.

I do wonder about the legality of fining a boat owner because they had not locked off a holding tank valve which was discovered in a boating safety inspection. The unlocked value is not a safety issue but is an offense that was found as part of a safety inspection aka warrant less search... I wonder if someone has fought this in court? They better have deep pockets and/or get the ACLU to defend them.

Later,
Dan
I believe any violation found in plain sight from a "safety" inspection is still admissible/enforceable.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:23 PM   #95
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I believe any violation found in plain sight from a "safety" inspection is still admissible/enforceable.
If it is in plain view, yes it will be legal.

Doesn't the USCG actively check holding tank values as part of their inspection?

Later,
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:50 PM   #96
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To be fair, a vehicle check point is the about the closest comparison to boat inspections but the boat inspection is different. A more direct comparison is that of an officer randomly pulling over a car for a safety inspection. That does not occur since it would be illegal.
Actually the checks are somewhat like customs and immigration.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:30 PM   #97
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If it is in plain view, yes it will be legal.

Doesn't the USCG actively check holding tank values as part of their inspection?
They did not check mine (I'm assuming "Valves") during a recent boarding. Actually, I have no valves, just a key switch for the macerator pump. I don't leave the key in the switch.

The guy asked to see my bilge. When I pointed to the floor hatch over the engine he said he didn't want to look at that. What he did choose to look at was the small bilge compartment that houses the holding tank. I had no illegal drugs or aliens in there.

As for the whole boarding issue, apparently we (in the USA) give up some of our constitutional rights when we board a boat, even our own boat which may double as our home. It's clearly illegal for LEOs to enter our homes without our permission without a search warrant signed by a judge, yet that's exactly they do to our boats. They need no reason, no suspicion, they just pick a boat and board it.

I suspect they haven't annoyed the right (rich and important) person yet, someone who would take this to the Supreme Court.

On the other hand, if we don't care about the constitution, they could apply this same procedure to private residences and vehiclesfind a lot of illegal drugs, weapons, criminals on the run and illegal aliens.

Seems like it would be pretty much the same thing.
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Old 08-12-2014, 03:18 PM   #98
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It is amazing to me how many people agree with giving up their constitutional rights once they get on a boat.
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:12 PM   #99
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It is amazing to me how many people agree with giving up their constitutional rights once they get on a boat.
When the USCG boat has a large machine gun on the front and six large men with guns board your boat, the choices are slim.
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:16 PM   #100
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It's clearly illegal for LEOs to enter our homes without our permission without a search warrant signed by a judge, yet that's exactly they do to our boats. They need no reason, no suspicion, they just pick a boat and board it.
If your boat is tied to a dock before the USCG was deciding whether to board, the 4th Amendment applies and the boarder search exception does not.
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