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Old 02-05-2015, 10:58 AM   #21
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Scott wrote;
"So ....much like a trial with lawyers that only have half the facts available....who knows where the thread may wind up."
Grey area. No one knows and everybody knows that so anybody can jump in and float yet another plausible theory and possibly "win the lottery" as being right.


And denveredverdOn wrote;
"Originally Posted by O C Diver Most wouldn't want to admit to themselves or others that they made a bad choice and are stuck with it. So they feel the need to defend what they have or their choice."

Yes indeed and whose to say they are wrong. And those that do can whip up a theory that is fully equipped w plausible correctness.


Then Wxx3 wrote;
"I think the real conclusion is that there is no significant difference, thus the debate."

That I disagree w completely. The difference is clear for all to see and that difference is an invitation to jump in. Just tell Marin there's little difference between a Rocna and a Bruce .......

But for me the reason is that anchor talk is just plain interesting. I don't post as much on other threads as I don't find them interesting. As a great example there's a thread titled "My Pilot House Housecleaning" running on the trawler discussions board now. Or another that just says "GenSet". Is he buying one? His just quit? Who knows from the thread title? Just not motivated to click on. I'm not the kind of TF member that looks at all the threads ... and wonder how many do actually.

You could also say anchor talk is popular because it has "possibilities". And that relates to personalities of a certain type .. that I belong to. Those that like things decided are terribly frustrated by anchor talk as conclusions and clear decisions are rarely found. People like myself are attracted to that. There will always be "options" that are "debatable". This relates well to the singe v/s twin talk too as everyone knows it will never be decided. And those that like things undecided will be there .. like me. And those that like things decided will be posting the dead horse thing.

djmarchand wrote:
"With engines and anchors, these are two topics where there is a little factual information, but not enough to definitively answer the question so that opinions abound. So endless discussion ensues."

David rarely misses the nail.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:27 AM   #22
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I learned about this when in school.

Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

<snip>
Free-choice paradigm

In a different type of experiment conducted by Jack Brehm, 225 female students rated a series of common appliances and were then allowed to choose one of two appliances to take home as a gift. A second round of ratings showed that the participants increased their ratings of the item they chose, and lowered their ratings of the rejected item.

<snip/>
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Old 02-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #23
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Nobody wants to hear what they have is inferior. Therefore, they will fight back. But remember: Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and most stink!
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Old 02-05-2015, 12:01 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
...what it is about anchors, rode, and the number of engines that make these topics so controversial?
So it's obvious that OPINIONS abound and that's part of it... but even for those that deal with "facts" there is a lot of variation and controversy...
Just pick up multiple anchor test reports and see how much consistency there is - or isn't. Even the reports cite difficulties making apples to apples comparisons and admit that test conditions do not necessarily represent real life. Further situations & conditions vary - so bottom line there is no one "best choice" for all situations, conditions & uses.

A few excerpts from widely distributed reports...

1) "Anchor tests are notoriously subjective. There are so many variables: windshifts, waves, currents, different seabed conditions, different cable or chain configurations, and varying scope. "

"2) One of the problems with anchor tests is that they don’t represent the real world.

3) We are certainly getting closer to an anchor which will cope with all types of seabed


My opinion is that the above supports that we experience different conditions, situations and have different expectations of our anchors - and that there is no one "best" choice that excels at all. How many of us - that maybe are even the strongest proponents of our anchor choice - carry more than one anchor and - I'd be willing to bet - many / most are different designs that serve different purposes very well. I don't think I've seen many / any boats w/ two or more of the same design & size anchor being carried.

My second point - many of the alternatives tested provide similar good test results - so there is less real difference if you are using one of the top performers. (7 of the 14 anchors tested - 50%- in one of the largest tests produced similar good results.

Third point - designs continue to evolve possibly getting closer to the holly grail of best in all conditions, situations, etc. How many of us are willing to shell out significant $ to get the latest "best" anchor design when what we have works well - even if not ideal in ALL situations.

In the end... if you are completely satisfied with your anchor - it is your best choice - why invest more $ to change if it ain't broke!
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Old 02-05-2015, 12:33 PM   #25
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I would like to think I can evaluate things objectively since I do that sometime for a living, but when it comes to things I buy (and spend a lot of money on), I sometimes lose objectivity. I would never buy another Ford pickup because the only one I have ever bought was a dog. On the other hand, I have done will with 3 Chevy's and 3 Toyotas. On outboards, I have done well with Honda's and Yamaha's, but you would have to give me an Evinrude ETEC before I would ever use another one.

It's not that Fords and ETEC's are bad, it's just that one bad experience tends to sour us on a product. When we buy something that works we tend to be loyal to that product, when we buy something that doesn't work, we run as far away from it as we can. That's why you won't see me in a Ford or Evinrude dealer, if they want to win me back, they are going to have to work for it.

By the way, I like my Mantus anchor. I have been trying to give away the CQR it replaced and it's still sitting on the dock.

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Old 02-05-2015, 01:28 PM   #26
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Actually I think the answer is quite simple.
Engines for most people are difficult to change (repower or buy a new boat). Most wouldn't want to admit to themselves or others that they made a bad choice and are stuck with it. So they feel the need to defend what they have or their choice.



Ding, ding, we have a winner. Only took eight posts to get to it.


All these discussions are about defending a personal choice that is very important to the owner but when in use make little difference in suitability for most users.


Many of could happily cruise any boat with any equipment in any of our cruising areas without getting worked up about any of these issues.
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Old 02-05-2015, 01:33 PM   #27
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bayview do you mean to say that Marin would be strongly defending single screw trawlers if he had bought one?
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Old 02-05-2015, 01:48 PM   #28
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Braided dock lines are ghey.
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Old 02-05-2015, 02:19 PM   #29
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bayview do you mean to say that Marin would be strongly defending single screw trawlers if he had bought one?
It's certainly possible. I agree with the basic "defend what you chose" concept. We chartered a single and had nothing against it. One factor in the mix in my case is that I really enjoy operating equipment and the more complex the better. Had we bought a single I'm sure we would have been happy with it, but I wonder how long it would have been until we moved to a twin just so I could have a more complex "machine" to run?

There have been some interesting responses in this thread. One notion that intrigued me regarding anchors is that because an anchor does its job out of sight, we pretty much have to take it in faith that the design we chose is the best one. And once you add faith to the mix, people start having very strong feelings about the validity of their faith and react passionately to challenges or threats to that faith.

At the extreme end of this we have ISIS, the IRA, and the Inquisition. At the mild end we have anchors and engines.
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Old 02-05-2015, 04:18 PM   #30
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Marin,
Of the 5 or 6 anchors I have now none have dragged or failed in any respect that I can remember. The 16lb Claw that I had on our trip north in the Albin in 03 seemed to break loose at times while setting so I set it hard and It held but the weather was very mild that year.
The XYZ that I modified ... I was expecting it to set only occasionally but it set every time ... probably 8 to 10 times. The tip of the fluke is 4" wide. But it even worked.
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Old 02-05-2015, 06:04 PM   #31
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I think people just like to protect what they think and what they have. Maybe there is a bit of adversarial lawyer in all of us. A parent will usually defend and heap praise on their child in public(not saying what they might think and say in private). I remember as a child in my room hearing the mothers of my friends who were loud when playing cards brag about my friends and of course I knew otherwise. Maybe our choices of boats anchors and other stuff is in a way an extension of self and takes on emotional baggage like the cars some of us buy.
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Old 02-05-2015, 06:39 PM   #32
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I agree with tbbrady,post 25 !
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Old 02-05-2015, 08:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by alormaria View Post
Braided dock lines are ghey.

Are not.
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Old 02-05-2015, 08:09 PM   #34
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I've certainly no idea why as I've never once argued for or against any anchor. We may be huge disappointments to the anchor fighters, but in each case we've taken the anchors that came standard on the boats and used them. Seems to me sometimes that it's all those people still searching for the perfect anchor, which doesn't exist.

As to engines, we've only had twins but see nothing wrong with singles and would recommend them to many. I do buy the theory many feel the need to defend what they have. Sometimes it's hard to just say, I have this, I wanted it, and I like it and really don't feel the need to justify it.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:15 PM   #35
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No…see…you've all totally missed the point. All the posts above prove this. You were all so keen and quick to post, you didn't read and missed my definitive and only correct reason right at the top after Marin's original post.

I'm willing to admit the point about it's invisibility, in the case of the anchor, and the faith required to trust it because you can't see it or check it, could be another factor.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:44 PM   #36
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Maybe its because we have nothing better to do?? When I was younger and occupied with important things to do I could never waste precious time pounding on this keyboard about stuff that hardly mattered. Now anchors and engines and such fill the void. I am not complaining I should have retired sooner and started pounding the keyboard maybe I would have got better at it.
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