Who owns the survey?

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OldDan1943 said:
Move closer to the water, go to surveyor school, take the exam, find a current surveyor to guide you for a while.

There are 2 surveyor entities ..... I forgot the names. I am sure someone in here can tell you.
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The organizations are:

NAMS- National Association of Marine Surveyors
SAMS- Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors

Both are, in essence, apprenticeship type programs that have prospective surveyors work under surveyors to learn/fine tune their craft. Both also require continuing education.

There are other organizations such as Navtech/USSA, but I’ve found that their surveys have lacked in substance and detail.
 
Perfect, Thank You, I’ll look into them, but I’m sure Ins co’s will not accept a owner completed survey? But may be good knowledge none the less
 
Mark P said:
I see a couple of comments here that may need adjustment. If the contract for survey is silent, the surveyor owns the copyright to the survey. It is a work of art just like music If you as boat/engine owner you want to own it, then u need at least these words in the deal "the survey is a work for hire". Also helps to have language that boat/engine owner owns all rights in and to the survey.
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In the for "what it's worth" category I'm the OP of this thread and started it because I was approached to sell my recent survey of a boat I passed on. I misunderstood my surveyor. I do have the right to sell it. To anyone I wish, for any price I can get. But that gives the 2nd hand owner of the survey no rights with the surveyor. If they wish to discuss issues with the surveyor they must pay him for his time or hire him for a fresh survey. Nor as Pau Hana pointed out, will a lender or insurance company likely accept a survey not in the boat purchaser's name.

So, I've been offered fifty cents on the dollar to sell the survey which of course I will do. But on the other side I'd never pay that much for a "used" survey.
 
When it comes to accepting a seller's survey, it's important to remember that buyers and sellers have totally different objectives: The seller wants to get rid of the boat for as much as (s)he can get, fairly or otherwise (remembering that not all sellers are scrupulously honest and a lot of "surveyors" are not the least bit qualified to be one) ... the buyer wants to buy it for as little as can be considered a fair price. So the most important thing to remember is at the end of the day, the buyer is stuck with the boat and any problems the seller's survey failed to reveal...the only thing the seller is "stuck with" is the buyer's money.



--Peggie
 
captDJ said:
Perfect, Thank You, I’ll look into them, but I’m sure Ins co’s will not accept a owner completed survey? But may be good knowledge none the less
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Correct. We, as boat owners, have a hard time being objective with our toys :)

In some situations, self surveys are permitted by insurers on some vessels (such as outboard powered vessels).
 
HeadMistress said:
When it comes to accepting a seller's survey, it's important to remember that buyers and sellers have totally different objectives: The seller wants to get rid of the boat for as much as (s)he can get, fairly or otherwise (remembering that not all sellers are scrupulously honest and a lot of "surveyors" are not the least bit qualified to be one) ... the buyer wants to buy it for as little as can be considered a fair price. So the most important thing to remember is at the end of the day, the buyer is stuck with the boat and any problems the seller's survey failed to reveal...the only thing the seller is "stuck with" is the buyer's money.



--Peggie
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Yup.
 
Mark P said:
I see a couple of comments here that may need adjustment. If the contract for survey is silent, the surveyor owns the copyright to the survey. It is a work of art just like music If you as boat/engine owner you want to own it, then u need at least these words in the deal "the survey is a work for hire". Also helps to have language that boat/engine owner owns all rights in and to the survey.
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A surveyor might attempt to claim it is intellectual property but a survey is basically a collection of facts and facts can't be copyrighted. A loose battery terminal, a wet core, a smokey exhaust, cracked tabbing, and so on are nothing more than facts no matter how eloquently a surveyor words them.

A surveyor can add the words "copyright 2019 by XXX" but that doesn't change the law. Facts can't be copyrighted.
 
Prior to 1976 the report would likely be considered a work made for hire and the IP rights would have transferred without any explicit assignment required unless otherwise stated in the engagement agreement. The statute applicable to copyright changed then, however, making this doctrine much more narrow (and not applicable to this situation).

So the intellectual property rights to the document remain with the author unless stated otherwise in the agreement and unless the agreement describes license rights to the contrary, selling the IP would not be authorized.

BTW, I am a lawyer.

Mike Curreri
M/V Bravo Zulu (Marlow 70)
 
My understanding. You own the survey in your name. If the new buyer wants it in his/her name they will need to negotiate with the surveyor to do so. You have the right to sell your survey in your name to anyone you want for what ever you can get for it. The document may help move the sale along and set a buyers mind at ease, but it is of no legal value if not in the new owners name. Boat US and several other insurance companies will accept a survey on the new vessel in the old owners name as long as it was performed in the last two years.

I got the shaft on a purchase last year when the seller sold to another buyer when our deal expired on a Sunday and I was scheduled to pay on Monday. The new buyer had the gumption to ask me for the survey and engine assessment. I offered them for 50% of my cost. He refused. It cost him a $10,000 rebuild. Oops. I was told I would be hearing from attorneys wanting my assistance in his suit. I made it clear that was not going to happen and that was the last of it. I would always purchase a discounted survey if I could, even if I intended to have another done on my dime. Too much at stake to cut costs at that time.
 
I completely disagree with SoWhat’s legal analysis of the concept of intellectual property rights. There is no doubt whatsoever as to the appropriateness of copyright protection to the author. I base this on my two law degrees and decades of legal practice (even though I have been retired for a goodly time!).
 
Survey

I recently faced this issue. I needed a new survey to account for a refit I had done. The first surveyor I talked to had a contract that said basically, I couldn’t use it for anything other than my own personal knowledge. Needless to say, I told him what I thought of that and I did not hire him. The person I hired did not require that foolishness. Just have a frank discussion with your surveyor and read every word of his contract. I was stunned when I read the first one.
 
As a former real estate broker of 44 years, I've participated in countless home inspections. And the premise is basically the same as a marine survey. Whoever hires the inspector/surveyor and pays their fee owns the report. Period. And unless there's a clause in the report stating otherwise, that client can share it with whomever they please. But the seller or broker, unless they've been granted express permission, cannot share it with another party.
 
Thankfully, my insurance company accepted a self survey for my trawler....


Have pretty good qualifications...but don't know for certain who they accept or not.


Maybe after after all those years of owning boats and working on/around them with no claims helps.
 
I can't comment on surveys, but by analogy to other inspection reports, it is typical that 1) the report specifically provides that it cannot be relied upon by anyone except the named client (and sometimes its lender, etc.), and 2) the report is copy righted, which does limit one's legal ability to distribute copies.
 
Marine Survey

The person who the survey was prepared for owns it. It can't be transferred to the next owner or potential buyer. It can be shared with the Insurance Company if its recent.
Ira Jones AMS#1001 Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors
 
You bought a service from the surveyor no different than buying an oil change for your boat. The material and the service is yours. I've had many surveys and never signed a contract like that . I've had several that I and my insurance co. recieved an electronic copy.
 
IraJonesAMS said:
The person who the survey was prepared for owns it. It can't be transferred to the next owner or potential buyer. It can be shared with the Insurance Company if its recent.
Ira Jones AMS#1001 Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors
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I'm certainly no marine lawyer but I have purchased 10 boats since 1995 and have found the above statement to be true! :popcorn:
 
Personally, I would not trust a survey that I did not pay for.
Of course, if the person who had a survey done and would allow you to read it, I find no problem with that?
Sort of like letting someone read a book you purchased.
The person cannot 'use' your survey, presenting it as his own. There lies the rub in the copywrite laws.
He is just reading it for further information.
 
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mikecurreri said:
I completely disagree with SoWhat’s legal analysis of the concept of intellectual property rights. There is no doubt whatsoever as to the appropriateness of copyright protection to the author. I base this on my two law degrees and decades of legal practice (even though I have been retired for a goodly time!).
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And I disagree with Mike. There is no doubt whatsoever that common factual information can't be copyrighted. I suppose a surveyor could word "There is moisture in the hull" using 500 words thus creating a work of unique and original authorship but I have never seen such a survey.

As a practical matter no surveyor would litigate over a copyright issue when total damages probably would not exceed $2000. Disagreements of course are attorneys stock in trade.

Wouldn't hesitate to sell my survey :angel:
 
O C Diver said:
Unless you specifically signed a contract stipulating that you can't sell it, I see nothing that prevents you from selling something you purchased. If nothing else, you could sell the paper it was printed on. ;)

As a survey is but a snapshot in time of a deteriorating item, the survey's value has a half life likey measured in weeks. Don't believe me, ask your insurance company how recent the survey needs to be for them to insure your boat.

Ted
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I would second this, the value of a survey that is dated is questionable.

My inspection reports do contain contractual language that prevents clients from sharing, or selling it for a few reasons, one of which is the information will be outdated and therefore potentially misleading.

Finally, you have to ask yourself, if a seller or broker is willing to share a survey, while there are exceptions, its thoroughness would be questionable; I've seen many of these supplied surveys and most are cursory at best. Any you do see would need to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

(In Jahore, Malaysia)
 
So what some are implying, if the insurance company wants a survey, THEY need to hire and pay for the surveyor. I would love to be tapped into that phone call.:popcorn:
 
It ALL depends on the contract

Here is the exact language from the contract for my last survey:

"The survey report is submitted for the sole and exclusive use of the survey purchaser. The survey purchasers specifically agree not to release, nor reveal the survey report, nor any part thereof, to any party who may rely on the content. XXXX agrees to furnish copies, as required, to financial and insurance concerns for the exclusive purposes of lending decisions and insurance underwriting. The survey purchasers agree not to reproduce, photocopy, nor quote the survey report, nor any part thereof".

Now you can disagree all you want about whether you would agree to such language, but that's completely different than saying that "X is universally true about surveys!"

It's a contract. I can contain anything two people agree to.
 
BDofMSP said:
It's a contract. I can contain anything two people agree to.
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And you can breach the contract. What surveyor is going to throw down a $15K retainer to file a lawsuit in Superior Court where damages probably will never exceed $2000?

Much ado about nothing.
 
One last comment regarding the right of copyright protection to the author of a survey or other report of the quality of a vessel’s condition.

All good examples of such reports contain numerous “facts.” But consider why one would hire a SteveD (for example). Because his selection of which observable facts are material and why, how to correct, and his ultimate decision regarding the readiness of the vessel all involve significant expertise. And THAT is protected intellectual property.

Why else would we value such at hundreds or thousands of dollars?
 
SoWhat said:
And you can breach the contract. What surveyor is going to throw down a $15K retainer to file a lawsuit in Superior Court where damages probably will never exceed $2000?

Much ado about nothing.
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If breaching contracts (not honoring agreements) is how you roll, more power to you. Not my thing.
 
BDofMSP said:
Here is the exact language from the contract for my last survey:

"The survey report is submitted for the sole and exclusive use of the survey purchaser. The survey purchasers specifically agree not to release, nor reveal the survey report, nor any part thereof, to any party who may rely on the content. XXXX agrees to furnish copies, as required, to financial and insurance concerns for the exclusive purposes of lending decisions and insurance underwriting. The survey purchasers agree not to reproduce, photocopy, nor quote the survey report, nor any part thereof".

Now you can disagree all you want about whether you would agree to such language, but that's completely different than saying that "X is universally true about surveys!"

It's a contract. I can contain anything two people agree to.
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Interesting discussion is this. Here is a question. What is "sole use"? I think it means that only I may use it for some purpose. It does not mean (to me) that I may not allow someone else to read it. If I were to sell it with an express written provision that it may not be used except for reference, would that be proscribed by the copyright laws? Would that be a violation of the cited provision? How about this? How about selling the survey with all identifying information redacted?
 
Leaving aside how the use of the survey can be restricted by agreement, the real question is less who gets to see it but who can rely on it, to the extent a claim is available against the surveyor for alleged errors. There is privity of contract between surveyor and the person ordering it,barring other law I think that is about the limit of responsibility.
Though, the surveyor must know the survey will be used by an insurer, and maybe a financier, to make decisions.Which makes that a bit odd. Anyone know of an instance where an insurer or a financier had a successful claim against a surveyor for a survey they did not order and pay for?
 
Not to take the discussion off track, but has anyone ever recovered anything when a Seller's or even your own buyer's survey had errors, mistakes or missed obvious problems?
Is the Surveyor liable for anything?
 
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