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Old 08-28-2018, 03:43 PM   #61
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I’m having a hard time visualizing that.

It looks to me like the sail boat crossed in front of the power boat, who apears to have hit the sail boat at a high enough rate of speed to climb up on the sail boat.

Based on the power boat climbing up on the sail boat I would venture to guess that the power boat was up on plane, a speed pretty difficult to overtake by a sail boat.

Perhaps there is more than I am seeing... but the photo does not seem to support a theory that the sail boat was overtaking the power boat.

This looks like a broadside collission to me.

I see the confusion now. He was making up an example to illustrate how a sail boat under sail doesn't ALWAY have precedence over a power boat. The precedence hierarchy is for crossing situations. When overtaking, there is no distinction between a sail or other boat.
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Old 08-28-2018, 03:59 PM   #62
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Back to the mishap, from the picture of the aftermath, one would assume the boats were both traveling in their now entangled directions leading up to the crash. And we assume that the sail boat was exclusively under sail. If both those assumptions are true, then the sailboat had priority and the power boat should have given way.


But we don't really know what lead up to this. For example, I have seen many sail boats tack in close quarters, creating a collision risk where one didn't exist before. Many seem to think that it's the burdened vessel's job to dodge them no matter what they do, failing to understand that they have an equal responsibility to maintain course and speed until the collision risk has passed. If something like that happened, then it's a different story.


Or maybe the boats were approaching each other in a very different manner, and their attempt to avoid a collision resulted in the pictured entanglement. Who knows.
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Old 08-28-2018, 04:59 PM   #63
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It's in the definition of a Towing Vessel, Par 26:02, page 215. I see I'm not alone is missing it......
I see the definition in the CFRs concerning towing vessels, but not in the Navrules or Colregs.

I can understand commercial being in the CFRs for regulating tow vessels...but I don't think commercial or recreational applies to ANY vessel n the Rules...towing, fishing, diving, etc. Espescially because they are international and to he USCGs definition isn't worldwide most likely. Inland rules are based but not strictly on the international rules.

If by the nature of your work you are RAM, you dayshape, light and radio so. Even commercial tow vessels are not RAM unless they declare so.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:26 PM   #64
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I see the confusion now. He was making up an example to illustrate how a sail boat under sail doesn't ALWAY have precedence over a power boat. The precedence hierarchy is for crossing situations. When overtaking, there is no distinction between a sail or other boat.
Thank you.
My point in my example is that sailboats under sail do not ALWAYS have a special privilege. Yes most of the time they do. I have been yelled at by those in sailboats (some with engines running and yes actually being overtaken by an 18’ Hobie Cat while idling through a Slow Speed/Minimum Wake Zone) that “Sailboats ALWAYS have the right of way”. I fault their instructors for passing on this ignorance.
Rule 18 calls out specific Exceptions. Overtaking is just one situation where a sailboat under sail is not stand on.

In the pic by the OP? Wasn’t there so no clue who did what.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:07 PM   #65
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Weren’t right of way rules vacated the second a collision became evident?
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:10 PM   #66
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Last words of dying man after a car accident " But I had a green light". I do not give a sh.. who have the right a way. If someone is about to hurt me - I move out of way.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:13 PM   #67
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Gmarr...not really... a potential collision is where action by the give way vessel to prevent it is still posdible.

"In Extremis"is where action by the give way vessel only will still result in a collision so the give way vessel must now take action to prevent it.

And even then there are preferred actions over a fred for all.

When a third vessel is involved, the standard rules quickly become moot.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:17 PM   #68
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Last words of dying man after a car accident " But I had a green light". I do not give a sh.. who have the right a way. If someone is about to hurt me - I move out of way.
Thats what the rules say to do.

It's not rocket science...... nor the rule of tonnage or other amatuerish expressions.

It's simply following the rules till a situation arises....if it ever does...that requires the acts of a prudent seaman.

Avoid collisions at all costs....but not gy arbitrary manuevering well before extremis is encountered.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:26 PM   #69
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Weren’t right of way rules vacated the second a collision became evident?
I am not sure if "vacated" is the correct word. Everyone involved and witnesses will be called to defend their actions then the maritime court will distribute the blame as the court see fit.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:55 PM   #70
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Who had right of way?

This conversation seems to point out long standing misconceptions of: “what my dad told me, when I was a young un’ and I told my son; so the rules is still the rules” quotes. People want to ‘pick and choose’ the rule that supports their argument. Unfortunately at a CG hearing post accident your ‘Argument’ becomes overruled. All because of: ‘sailboats always have the right of way, I’m bigger, I’m restricted because I’m towing a dinghy, I’m bigger than he is, so I can demand draft priority, and many of the phrases mentioned earlier’ are NOT the intent of Colregs. Colregs is not an escape of responsibility but a direction toward responsibility. People need to understand that about 1969 the old rules went out and were replaced by Colregs. Everything (well, almost everything) you learned at the yacht club and at the ‘post cruise’ dinner is misdirection simply from ‘old wives tales’.
Also. Constrained by draft does NOT exist in Inland waters. Narrow channels and under 20 meters does.

Regarding the OP. There isn’t enough info to tell exactly what happened.
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Old 08-28-2018, 08:25 PM   #71
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This reminds me of when first learning to sail my friend warned me we could be sailing along happy as clams and then “all hell breaks loose”.

I’d be interested in who, on each respective boat had watch, and the lies they tell.
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:28 PM   #72
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I am surprised that in this lengthy thread, no one brought up a vessel not in command. The sailboat noticed the powerboat on a collision course a "long way off"....if the power boat continuted to come straight at the sailboat, did not respond to audible, visual, or vhf signaling, and collided with the sailboat, it seems pretty obvious there was no one in command of the powerboat. Obviously whoever was supposed to be in command of the powerboat is at fault, but I think the sailboater is also at fault for watching this situation develop and not taking corrective action. I would probably split blame 50/50 on this.

On an interesting side note.....The dynamic of online forums is always kind of amusing to me. No matter how general a statement is, someone will always take exception to it, and go way off topic to start an argument.

So...if I solar powered fishing vessel is dragging a net in a channel at night going with the current and has a 15 foot draft is about to colide with a kayak being paddled by a robot going upstream, does the sailboat still have the right of way ?
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:17 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I see the confusion now. He was making up an example to illustrate how a sail boat under sail doesn't ALWAY have precedence over a power boat. The precedence hierarchy is for crossing situations. When overtaking, there is no distinction between a sail or other boat.

OK, I understand and agree!
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:25 PM   #74
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I am surprised that in this lengthy thread, no one brought up a vessel not in command. The sailboat noticed the powerboat on a collision course a "long way off"....if the power boat continuted to come straight at the sailboat, did not respond to audible, visual, or vhf signaling, and collided with the sailboat, it seems pretty obvious there was no one in command of the powerboat. Obviously whoever was supposed to be in command of the powerboat is at fault, but I think the sailboater is also at fault for watching this situation develop and not taking corrective action. I would probably split blame 50/50 on this.

On an interesting side note.....The dynamic of online forums is always kind of amusing to me. No matter how general a statement is, someone will always take exception to it, and go way off topic to start an argument.

So...if I solar powered fishing vessel is dragging a net in a channel at night going with the current and has a 15 foot draft is about to colide with a kayak being paddled by a robot going upstream, does the sailboat still have the right of way ?
The sailboat always has the right away and you can bet on that in Las Vegas, absolutely without question. Or so I read it on the internet. SO it must be true.
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:36 AM   #75
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Ths is hilarious.

With regards to sail boats under sail power vs recreatonal power boats....

There are very few instances where a recreational power boat has “stand on” privileges. Very few.

Perhaps when a boat under sail power overtakes a power boat, but that rarely happens...

Perhaps in a narrow channel, but in all my time seeing sail boats few tend to operater under sail in a narrow channel.

There are several perhapses, but the reality is that almost every interaction that actually happens between recreational power boats and sailboats under sail power, require the power boat to give way.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:04 AM   #76
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Kevin, that works with me except when a privileged sailboats changes course while required to maintain course as the privileged vessel (thus not overtaking the other vessel.)
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:47 AM   #77
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Kevin, that works with me except when a privileged sailboats changes course while required to maintain course as the privileged vessel (thus not overtaking the other vessel.)
I agree!
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:18 AM   #78
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What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:26 AM   #79
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It actually goes deeper than that. If the motor was running it doesn’t necessarily mean it was in gear and propelling the boat. A fine point but accurate.
Does anyone have a cite on this. I have always thought the distinction was whether the motor was running and not whether the engine was in gear.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:56 AM   #80
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What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please

Here is a link to a PDF https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...6cF44wPNxwomXK


Someone posted it earlier as well. You can also buy it in paperback. There are very few things where the rules are international, and the nav rules are one of them.


For boats over something like 40' (I don't recall the exact number) you are required to have a copy on board.


It's probably worth suggesting that one of the best ways to learn all this is to go get yourself a USCG license, or at least go through the training. Even for just a 6-pack license, you will learn a lot.
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