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Old 12-25-2015, 06:08 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
That is the point. If more than the top 1% are going to be able to buy a new <35' family cruiser (Grand Banks, Mainship, Marine Trader, Albin,etc), some manufacturers need to offer the entry level boat. Seems to me most are building to Two Incomes No Children and not the modest family cruiser.

Ted
But then that's a different point and it doesn't seem to me that anyone ever built to the modest income family cruiser. Mainship, Bayliner might have come the closest. That market really though is and has been used boats and family boats like Sea Ray or Carver. Or a boat like the Glacier Bay I mentioned. It's a 27' for $150-160k. You never saw young modest income families buying new Grand Banks. That's one reason their new sales always skewed so far upward in age. The younger buyer was buying a runabout or a small cruiser of some sort if their income was a bit higher. When I was 30 years old I couldn't afford to buy the boats you're talking about new. I wasn't going to/couldn't spend my entire life savings on a down payment to have a $5,000 or more monthly payment. I had a 25' runabout. Even a 28' Sea Ray Sundancer was out of my range.
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Old 12-25-2015, 07:59 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
Bay Pelican was sold when new for $85,000 US. The cost of living (CPI) from 1985 to 2015 has increased by 220% so in 2015 dollars the price is $187,000. You cannot even buy the 30 year old Bay Pelican for $187,000 much less an equivalent 2015 build.

At the inflated prices of today's builds fewer people can buy a new build, and those that can seem to go for larger boats.
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But then that's a different point and it doesn't seem to me that anyone ever built to the modest income family cruiser. Mainship, Bayliner might have come the closest. That market really though is and has been used boats and family boats like Sea Ray or Carver. Or a boat like the Glacier Bay I mentioned. It's a 27' for $150-160k. You never saw young modest income families buying new Grand Banks. That's one reason their new sales always skewed so far upward in age. The younger buyer was buying a runabout or a small cruiser of some sort if their income was a bit higher. When I was 30 years old I couldn't afford to buy the boats you're talking about new. I wasn't going to/couldn't spend my entire life savings on a down payment to have a $5,000 or more monthly payment. I had a 25' runabout. Even a 28' Sea Ray Sundancer was out of my range.
B, referencing Bay Pelicans post, in 1985 $85K bought you a better 42' trawler. A 35' Marine Trader maybe $40K to $50K? Adjusted for inflation today $90K to $110K? That $40K to $50K was probably in reach of the top 10% or more. Now I get that we're not going to see a 35' for $110K. But you shouldn't have to spend $300K for a 35' boat because it's fancy as opposed to family friendly. Just my $ .02 worth.

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Old 12-25-2015, 11:36 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
B, referencing Bay Pelicans post, in 1985 $85K bought you a better 42' trawler. A 35' Marine Trader maybe $40K to $50K? Adjusted for inflation today $90K to $110K? That $40K to $50K was probably in reach of the top 10% or more. Now I get that we're not going to see a 35' for $110K. But you shouldn't have to spend $300K for a 35' boat because it's fancy as opposed to family friendly. Just my $ .02 worth.

Ted
I am not arguing that pricing has changed. The materials of a boat have risen in cost much faster than general inflation.

But that brings us to the issue not that anyone has stopped building boats but that they are not as affordable. I don't think either that anyone would argue the buying power of the middle class has decreased in these years. Please let's not discuss the politics, just that it has.

I did not know the cost of a KK 42 new in 1985. Initially I'm surprised at the price but then it hit me. The inflation rate in China, especially in Manufacturing, and the changes in exchange rate over those years would play a big role. I don't have the information handy to actually look at that.

Note: I'm not arguing over what Bay Pelican might have paid in 1985, but the list price of a KK 42 in 1985 was not $85k, it was $176k for the base boat. It was over $200k with normal add-ons. Still it's far more today than $440k as it's in the $1 Million range for a 44.

If the cost is what the OP was referring to then it makes sense. However, stating that people have stopped building the boats is what I was having a hard time grasping.

I will point out too that the price of cars has increased much more than inflation in the same period. From 1980 to 2013 the average cost of a new car increased 335%.

That's one cautionary thing I've learned over the years about inflation. The general rate of inflation isn't what impacts most of us, it's the rate of increase on the things we use most.
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Old 12-26-2015, 06:29 AM   #84
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Note: I'm not arguing over what Bay Pelican might have paid in 1985, but the list price of a KK 42 in 1985 was not $85k, it was $176k for the base boat. It was over $200k with normal add-ons. Still it's far more today than $440k as it's in the $1 Million range for a 44.
Perhaps my memory is playing tricks after all these years, but I do remember having somewhere the original sales receipt for the Bay Pelican (then Slow Flight). After 17 years my records are voluminous and I am short of time before leaving so a search for the sales receipt will have to wait until I return from our boating season.
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Old 12-26-2015, 07:20 AM   #85
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Perhaps my memory is playing tricks after all these years, but I do remember having somewhere the original sales receipt for the Bay Pelican (then Slow Flight). After 17 years my records are voluminous and I am short of time before leaving so a search for the sales receipt will have to wait until I return from our boating season.
You may have gotten an exceptional deal. I was looking at NADA. It may also be wrong. Your point is valid either way, in that the increase in the price of a KK far exceeds the general rate of inflation.
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Old 12-26-2015, 07:49 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
Perhaps my memory is playing tricks after all these years, but I do remember having somewhere the original sales receipt for the Bay Pelican (then Slow Flight). After 17 years my records are voluminous and I am short of time before leaving so a search for the sales receipt will have to wait until I return from our boating season.
I believe BandB is correct. I had a 1985 24' Wellcraft with a Merc stern drive and found the original bill of sale to the original owner. It was $65,000. You certainly wouldn't get a new 42' KK for only $20,000 more.
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Old 12-26-2015, 08:34 AM   #87
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B, let me go at this another way. I owned a 1971 Datsun 1200. Have no idea what it originally cost. It was a 2 door compact economy car. It filled the same niche as the VW Bug. Simple economy starter car. Had no frills, no options, and No AC. It was a new car that most could afford. From there most would want something better and as finances would allow, they would move up. I used it into the late 80's as a commuter car to save money. These days you can still buy an economy starter car. It has more luxury (now necessities) items like AC, and a load of government requirements like air bags, but still at a price that most can afford. Some car manufacturers recognize the need (market) for this type of car. My guess is that it's also the spring board for satisfied customers to buy a nicer car from the same manufacturer. Certainly, Datsun (now Nissan), Toyota, Honda, and Subaru entered the American car market and developed a following starting this way.

Another comparable area is the RV industry. While there are manufactures making 6 and 7 figure RVs (maybe motor homes), there are still companies producing the starter family RVs.

It seems to me that the boating industry has lost track of the economy starter weekend family cruiser. Don't think it's a good business model to tell the young family (that can afford to buy new cars) at the boat show, that a weekend and vacation family cruisers isn't in their income range, go buy used. Maybe they will decide to go to next weeks RV show and find an industry that wants to market to them.

Ted
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Old 12-26-2015, 08:44 AM   #88
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An article (at the very end) from Yachting Magazine December 1982 on the KK website lists the KK 42 starting at $106,000.

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Old 12-26-2015, 08:51 AM   #89
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For an FRP resin rich vessel look no further than the price of three things to see why boat prices have moved up faster than government reported inflation:

.. The price of oil
.. Wages in Taiwan
.. Real estate prices on the Southeastern US coast.

All three have risen quite disproportionately to US government calculated inflation and play a big role in boat building costs. Throw in a few environmental factors for things like expensive engines and air emissions for mold release agents and the affluent related terms like YACHT, 1%ers and free cash creep into a discussion like this.

Like carriage houses and maid quarters, some things like new boats and Teslas remain out of reach for the masses. BTW, if one really wants to squawk, look at the price of a new Cessna vs say 40 years ago.
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Old 12-26-2015, 09:09 AM   #90
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It seems to me that the boating industry has lost track of the economy starter weekend family cruiser. Don't think it's a good business model to tell the young family (that can afford to buy new cars) at the boat show, that a weekend and vacation family cruisers isn't in their income range, go buy used.

Ted
I don't think the industry has. That's why there are so many Sea Rays, Chaparrals, Four Winns, Scouts, Everglades, Whalers. Those are the boats that they can build for the weekend family cruiser. That cruiser doesn't want a trawler to start with as they don't have the time for the lack of speed. Sea Ray 260 Sundancer $75k-100k. Sea Ray 280 Sundancer $110k-140k. Sea Ray 310 Sundancer $150k-175k. That's exactly who those boats target. Now, they're still out of the range of a large part of the young couples starting families so they get a 21' runabout for the price of a car.

Trawlers were never the starter boat for young people. Here are all the boats I owned before 2012 and my move to Florida. 17' Sea Ray Bowrider. Comparable boat, say an 18' Chaparral today is $23k. 22' Sea Ray Pachanga, $40k boat today. 24' Searay Bowrider, $50-60k today. 26' Cobalt $75k today. 30' Cobalt $175k today.

Glastron has a 26' Cruiser you can buy for $60k or a 29' Cruiser you can buy for $75k. Those are the starter kits today, the Bayliner's. Larson has a 27' Mid Cabin for $85k-90k. They have a 29' for $100k and a 31' for $140k.

I think those here on this forum don't really see the entire market sometimes. It's like Yacht owners who see nothing under $10 million. Trawler owners see the trawler type market. It was never the boat for the average young family. Yes, I know people who have always had Grand Banks, bought new, from the day their oldest daughter was 3. But they were the exception. He owned a large accounting practice. His wife was a lawyer. In the last 25 years they've owned 5 Grand Banks. They feel helpless now as they would normally trade in a year or two for a new Grand Banks, and GB as they've known it, will be no more by then.
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Old 12-26-2015, 09:19 AM   #91
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Most boat builders are in it for primarily making money. Sure ego and a few build cool boats..but for the most part...bottom line.

Look at boating magazines. For the average cruiser...the coolest mag ever written in my mind was the small boat journal. Within a few years after trying to keep the doors open...it migrated from small cruisers to center console and bow riders....I stopped subscribing as it became like the others. Passagemaker followed along and follows the money...look at all the disappointed TFers that no longer subscribe as it seem like it is written for the 1%ers.

28-29 foot Sea Ray bow riders in NJ outsold the cabin models by a wide margin (someone may have the stats...just my perception when I was a captain for Sea Ray 2001-2003). Why? Most boaters are NOT cruisers.

So thinking where have all the builders or marketing departments have gone....the right question is ...where have all the cruising boaters gone. Add to that....the cost of all the stuff moder cruisers want push that cabin model WAY higher than the bow rider version.

Soooooo.....
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Old 12-26-2015, 09:40 AM   #92
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One comparatively new boat design - -

which interests me a lot (we have an old Albin-25) is the Bluejacket-24 , http://bluejacketboats.com/ . The Bluejacket is probably too small and light to qualify as a "trawler" in the eyes of many, however, it would serve our needs nicely for a trailerable motor cruiser for up to two weeks on the water.

Notice that the Bluejacket requires much less power in order to perform on-plane compared to a C-Dory, for instance.

After many years using a Yamaha 9.9HT outboard for auxiliary power in a light displacement leeboard yawl, I'm still getting used to the draft and fixed prop on the Albin. It does warm the cockles of my heart whenever I see positive comments on the Albin-25 here from people who have experience in them.
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Old 12-26-2015, 10:06 AM   #93
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I don't think the industry has. That's why there are so many Sea Rays, Chaparrals, Four Winns, Scouts, Everglades, Whalers. Those are the boats that they can build for the weekend family cruiser. That cruiser doesn't want a trawler to start with as they don't have the time for the lack of speed. Sea Ray 260 Sundancer $75k-100k. Sea Ray 280 Sundancer $110k-140k. Sea Ray 310 Sundancer $150k-175k. That's exactly who those boats target. Now, they're still out of the range of a large part of the young couples starting families so they get a 21' runabout for the price of a car.

Trawlers were never the starter boat for young people. Here are all the boats I owned before 2012 and my move to Florida. 17' Sea Ray Bowrider. Comparable boat, say an 18' Chaparral today is $23k. 22' Sea Ray Pachanga, $40k boat today. 24' Searay Bowrider, $50-60k today. 26' Cobalt $75k today. 30' Cobalt $175k today.

Glastron has a 26' Cruiser you can buy for $60k or a 29' Cruiser you can buy for $75k. Those are the starter kits today, the Bayliner's. Larson has a 27' Mid Cabin for $85k-90k. They have a 29' for $100k and a 31' for $140k.

I think those here on this forum don't really see the entire market sometimes. It's like Yacht owners who see nothing under $10 million. Trawler owners see the trawler type market. It was never the boat for the average young family. Yes, I know people who have always had Grand Banks, bought new, from the day their oldest daughter was 3. But they were the exception. He owned a large accounting practice. His wife was a lawyer. In the last 25 years they've owned 5 Grand Banks. They feel helpless now as they would normally trade in a year or two for a new Grand Banks, and GB as they've known it, will be no more by then.
I tend to agree with this - and here in the Midwest Sea Ray is a high end (expensive) boat - I see a lot of people on Larsons, Bayliners, 4 Winds, etc, these things sit at the slip or on a trailer for 4-5 months a year then go to dry storage and last decades. A few years back I saw a 26 footer larson twin gas i/os and all the comforts for around 100k - now that isn't in my wheelhouse at the moment but I do know some people my age (mid-late 20s) that could swing a nice down payment and the payments on that thing - it isn't much more than a couple of nice Lexuses.
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Old 12-26-2015, 10:42 AM   #94
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So thinking where have all the builders or marketing departments have gone....the right question is ...where have all the cruising boaters gone. Add to that....the cost of all the stuff moder cruisers want push that cabin model WAY higher than the bow rider version.

Soooooo.....
They'll be here when they're the age of most of the people on this site. Until then, they don't have time to cruise. And definitely want have time to cruise at 7 knots. They can take their 27' cruiser and go spend Saturday night 100 miles from home and then back home on Sunday. If they get a week, they can cover several hundred miles. Or just pull some skiers and tubes.
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Old 12-26-2015, 11:21 AM   #95
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which interests me a lot (we have an old Albin-25) is the Bluejacket-24 , http://bluejacketboats.com/ . The Bluejacket is probably too small and light to qualify as a "trawler" in the eyes of many, however, it would serve our needs nicely for a trailerable motor cruiser for up to two weeks on the water
To the OP, I think we have seen now that if one desires a new small (pocket) trawler (cruiser), they are out there.

Models
RF-246 | Rosborough Boats USA
Dipper 19 – Devlin Designing Boat Builders
Eastern 31 Boats | Work Boat | Sport Fishing Rig | Eastern Boats
North Pacific Yachts | 28' Pilothouse Model

There are also hundreds of plans out there that could be had for one to build there own if one desires. My dad and uncles did just that when I was young. I don't think it's so bad the economics could keep the masses off the water. If a person really desires it, and has the will power they can find a way.
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Old 12-26-2015, 11:40 AM   #96
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As this thread progresses engineers and chemists are working on developing new materials. With all the work being done on polymers, plastics and other materials who knows what will result. If someone develops a new way to link molecules that will be very strong, there could be a way found to do boat hulls and other parts by injection molding. The financial rewards could be huge for anyone patenting such a process. It could drastically cut down on cost for any labor intensive product such as boats. I don't know what it will be, but I am betting that someone with come up with a way to fill market demand.
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Old 12-26-2015, 11:48 AM   #97
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Boeing and Airbus are studying the idea of 3D printing an entire airplane fuselage. Both companies are currently making increased use of 3D printing to make smaller components. I've used it to make parts for the interior of our PNW cabin cruiser. No reason it can't eventuslly be used to produce boats.
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Old 12-26-2015, 11:55 AM   #98
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Quote:
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They'll be here when they're the age of most of the people on this site. Until then, they don't have time to cruise.
Another quote: "I think we have seen now that if one desires a new small (pocket) trawler (cruiser), they are out there."

Sure are - a goodly raft of folks go cruising economically as we did in a C-Dory 22 Cruiser, one of the best small boat designs around for extended cruising. Before retiring we did lots of 1-2-3-week jaunts in ours. And with the lucky break of a "sabbatical" available to both me and my wife, even a 2-month SE Alaska cruise.

Had so much fun we moved up to a 26-footer with more creature comforts, and have been spending most of the summers on it for 17 years since retiring. There's a lot less lounging space than my dream boat, a 37 Nordic Tug, but it gets the job done. Even accommodates a third adult guest for 2-week stints in the wilds of BC or SE Alaska. Our 26-foot diesel sterndrive cruiser has hot water, watermaker, cabin heat, two-burner propane stove, fridge, head, 30A shore power, inverter/charger, tons of fishing/crabbing/shrimping gear, and 400nm range at 6 knots (only 150nm at 18 knots). Takes a big diesel pickup to haul it.

Our CD22 also slept 3, had dinette, 2-burner stove, and cabin heat. We used a big cooler, but many newer ones have a fridge. Not as cozy as the 26-footer, but a heck of a cruiser for the price, and low cost of operation and towing. With a 90hp outboard, they do 16 knots at 4-5 nmpg. At 3500-4000 lb on the trailer, they can be towed with a moderate-size SUV or pickup. Even now, a CD22 in good condition can be had for $30-40K.

There at least a half dozen trailerable cruiser builders still making good functional little boats, though new ones are considerably more costly than ours were back in the day.
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Old 12-26-2015, 11:55 AM   #99
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Boeing and Airbus are studying the idea of 3D printing an entire airplane fuselage. Both companies are currently making increased use of 3D printing to make smaller components. I've used it to make parts for the interior of our PNW cabin cruiser. No reason it can't eventuslly be used to produce boats.
I was actually just thinking about this but don't have any experience outside the casual ("makerbot" type) applications. It seems like it would be even easier to adapt to boat building than for aerospace applications since boats are basically fancy plastic. You could use the same printer to make a 28 ft express on Friday and 45 ft fly bridge the next and given the precision of 3D printing you could "build in" not only the stringers and such but a lot of the components that would normally have to be molded separately than assembled likely saving significant time and money in the build out.
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Old 12-26-2015, 12:03 PM   #100
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Some production boat builders are already using CAD/CAM controlled 5 axle routers to make the plugs for their hull molds and other parts molds. Some companies specialize in just building molds.
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