When did you first go out to sea

[gaston]

and how much navigation experience dose one need with today's electronics ?

 

[kthoennes]

What exactly do you mean by "out to sea?" That's kind of a broad phrase.

 

[Marin]

Not counting ocean fishing in Hawaii which was on a friend's boat and we went out strictly by sight--- there was only a compass on board-- the first time I started boating where navigation was important was in 1987 when my wife and I bought our first "real" boat, a 17' Arima fishing boat, which we still have and use. I installed a compass and eventually installed a "charting" Loran-C. We used the Loran for going out before daybreak.

Not counting navigating an airplane, which I started doing in the 1970s, or the navigation skills my wife learned courtesy of the US Navy, we did not get into true navigation until 1998 when we bought the cabin cruiser we still have in the PNW. When we bought it it had a Loran-C, a radar, and a compass. We immediately installed a then-state-of-the-art GPS plotter. When the radar started to die we replaced it with a Furuno NavNet radar/plotter.

We also added a GPS plotter to the Arima.

We both know how to plot a course on a paper chart and use a compass to follow it. In fact we use a compass today to hold a heading, using the plotters to confirm the heading is still valid as it's the nature of the currents around here to be changing the required heading fairly constantly to maintain a desired course.

But apart from the compass we use electronics exclusively for navigating our boats. But..... we have the relevant paper charts/chart books on our boats and in the cruisers we keep them open at the helm to serve as a "big picture" reference, a role that has been taken over to a degree by our iPads.

As to your question as to whether or not one needs to know how to navigate--- by which I assume you mean draw and plot courses, calculate current corrections, and use a compass to hold headings and follow your courses--- I guess it depends on how much faith one has in the electronics. If one is convinced the electricicals will keep holding hands no matter what, then I guess the electronics are all one needs.

If one prefers to have a Plan B when the risk of potential electronics/electrical problems seems higher than zero, then perhaps knowing how to navigate with alternate means is a good idea.

We put ourselves in this category but it does not mean people who feel that having sufficient redundancy in their electronics is enough are wrong. The right choice is the one an individual feels is the one that's best for that individual.

We actually prefer to have a Plan B and C. Redundancy in electronics and electricity and the ability to use purely mechanical means--- charts, pencils, manual calculators, dividers, etc.

 

[FF]

When did you first go out to sea
and how much navigation experience dose one need with today's electronics ?

Delivery of my new build 45 ft sail,boat from Belize (then British Honduras) in 1967.

As the Carib is loaded with radio stations a home assembled kit DF radio made the trip easy.

On later trips PR to Norfolk Va a Davis (then) $10.00 plastic sextant for noon sun lines was used.

 

[Art]

1. When did you first go out to sea

2. and how much navigation experience dose one need with today's electronics ?

1. First out to sea - late 1952 or early 53... don't really have clear recollection... Born 4/3/52. Mom and dad would recall, and, next time I'm in Penobscot Bay Maine I'll try to raise them... as they swim with the fishes due to family spreading of their ashes.

2. Enough to make sure you know what you are doing and where you are heading and how to get there safely. Marin said it pretty darn well - see his post #3. I was brought up on compass and plotting out paper charts. Dad could read the stars like a book. Loran eventually became publically available and we used it as back-up to our chart plotting. All chart plot arithmetic was done on paper... always checked and double checked. Depth sounder was very useful and often referred to for general depths as stated on paper charts as well as constantly watched when in shallow waters, so we'd not go a ground. On the bridge, when need be, dad would pilot very slowly into shallow waters and I'd sit beside him giving second to second accounts of any depth changes.

Sun spots could open up and deluge planet Earth with electrical impulses that short out every electrical gizmo in existence (satellites included). Long as I have our 1977 Tollycraft (with no computerization on its basics) and our 1967 Buick Wildcat (with no computerization on it's basics) and our 1985 Chevy 1 ton 4WD pick up (with no computerization in its basics) I feel pretty confident that a compass and paper charts/maps will get us where we want to go... that is, as long as fuel remains available.

And yes, I do believe that modern-day electronics are wonderful, easy to use, accurate pieces of equipment. But, the what if they ever fail factor is always in back of my mind. If so, then I revert to my navigation trainings from dad during late 1950's, throughout the 60's, into early 70's.

 

[High Wire]

and how much navigation experience dose one need with today's electronics ?

in the ocean? 1977. My electronics were a CB radio and a Ray Jefferson depth flasher.
You need enough experience to know when your electronics are giving you bad info for various reasons. Some quick examples:
A gps waypoint that if you steered to it in fog you would cross a sandbar, island, jetty, etc.
Too much Sea or Rain clutter that obliterates close targets on radar.
Over reliance on an Autopilot and not keep a proper lookout.

 

[TDunn]

My first boating experience was in Puget Sound in 1959. I captained a raft with my little brother as crew until I pushed him overboard, at which time my dad pulled me back to shore with the rope attached to the raft. Navigation was pure visible. By 1960 I had graduated to a row boat which I rowed around the east side of Budd Inlet between shore and the mothball fleet. Navigation was by sight although I also had a pocket compass (boy scout branded) for when the fog came in - I steered east. All my navigation was by sight and compass until 1970 when I learned proper navigation (charts, dr, plotting, celestial) and sailed for the first time on a vessel equipped with a satellite navigation system and radar although I was required to take sun and star sights which were then confirmed with the satnav system.

In the mid to late 70s I sailed all over Puget Sound with a compass and charts. I started using GPS for navigation in my land based work as soon as man portable systems became affordable. On the water I started out using a Garmin 45 GPS and charts in '94 and graduated to a Furuno chart plotter and radar in '97. I still carry a sextant and full charts and can navigate without the GPS.

I think that a person is foolish to go out without the knowledge to use and read charts and do compass and dr navigation.

 

[oscar]

I'll further define your question: The first time I was on the water out of sight of land was in the early 70's Dead reckoning only. (Google that).

The regulations say that "No mariner shall rely on a single source of navigation."
Sometimes the regulation makes sense.

GPS has no doubt made getting lost a lot harder. But it doesn't always show you everything you need to know, even the most sophisticated plotters. I have plenty of examples of that. And you need to really know how to use them, at which point an understanding of the fundamentals comes in handy. Sometimes all it takes is 100'. You must have and use paper, or at least a raster chart on a separate device. (The electronic version of a NOAA chart.) Google raster versus vector chart, true versus magnetic, variation, deviation.... and all that.

Are there tons of people out there with only a smart phone in their hand. Yes. Are they less likely to get in trouble than their predecessors? Yes. Is it safe? No.

 

[Portage_Bay]

1970 on the water. 1984 out of sight of land.

Marin and others have said it well. But I'll throw my opinions in also

I like having the skills and experience to navigate without electronics. I love how precise and easy navigation has become with electronics.

Some basic aspects of navigation have not changed with electronics. Make a plan, stay ahead of the vessel and be observant.

Make a plan:
Unless operating on familiar waters and good visibility do your course work ahead of time. This can be anything from creating a route on your chart plotter to drawing a course on a paper chart. In new and or challenging areas I like lots of pre - plotted decisions made well ahead of time. Course, distance, distance off and bearing of dangers. ETA at major points, tides and currents.

Stay ahead of the vessel:
This is old skool but I think it should also be practiced with electronics. When we navigated exclusively on paper charts we were working ahead of our position. As we passed over point A and took a fix we were confirming we knew where we were. Point B was already in our 'sights'. If you dig up old accident investigations you will often find the cause was navigational error and that often "failure to stay ahead of the vessel" was cited. Avoid being surprised, know what's coming, deal with it before it becomes critical.

Be observant:
Use everything. GPS, radar and look out your windows. Are they all telling you the same story? Each will lie to you in a different way.

I'm confident I can get back home with nothing more than a compass, watch or clock, paper chart, dividers, rule and decent visibility. But.... I won't leave the dock without radar, GPS and depth finder functioning.

We all know the strengths of electronics. We often do not think of the weakness. Besides potential failure the biggest weakness is a chart plotter encourages us to just look at where we are and no more. We all, I'm guilty of it also, tend to use the GPS plotter like we use our car GPS. Keep the dot on the line.

If you enjoy learning and sharpening your nautical skills add paper chart navigation to your routine. You will be surprised how quickly you pick it up. And you may someday be glad you did.

 

[MurrayM]

First time was aboard a BC Ferry up the Inside Passage when I was six.

Then my wife and I, before real full time jobs, a mortgage, or our daughter, had a dream of sea kayaking the coast of BC...

All our kayak navigating was done by paper chart, compass, string (handier than a ruler or dividers) and watch. Highly recommend the first edition of Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation by David Burch for a lesson on seat of your pants bush pilot style navigation...for when all that fancy electronic stuff goes turtle at the most inopportune time.

 

[ragin cajun]

In the early 70's running 45-70miles offshore to snapper fish. We relied on a good compass and paper charts with block numbers for the Gulf. If we felt we where off course we would head to the nearest oil rig to check block numbers posted on the side of it. The AM radio with directional finder was used by many but to me the most useful electronic device at that time was the flashing depth sounder. When Loran-c came on that opened up a whole new world for rocks/ wreck fishing that was hit or miss before using dead reckoning for locations. Still use paper while running in backup to GPS. I don't use radar to its full potential, something I need to study on.

 

[Blissboat]

My first offshore trip was under sail, a thirty-four hour leg from the Tampa Bay entrance to Ft. Jefferson, in the Dry Tortugas. Nav equipment on board: a compass; a Ray-Jeff table-top radio direction finder powered by flashlight batteries; a fathometer; paper charts, parallel rule, and chart divider. When the loom of the lighthouse on Garden Key appeared on the horizon dead ahead, I felt like Henry the Navigator. On the return leg, locating the coast of Florida seemed less challenging.

As the others have noted, contemporary electronics make navigation ridiculously simple. Perhaps I date myself when I insist that a prudent mariner is someone who can still get where he's going even if every electronic device onboard suddenly and permanently went dark. The rule should probably be to avoid situations where you are utterly dependent on GPS. Use everything there is, of course - but keep a running plot on paper, compare your common-sense appraisal of how far and how fast you've travelled in which direction, and keep asking yourself those "what-if" questions.

Recently a buddy who is older and saltier than me spent a day aboard a fancy new Hatteras sport-fisherman loaded with every device the salesman could get the inexperienced customer to order, including GPS and plotter interfaced with the autopilot, and (reportedly) even the electronic engine controls. After describing the experience to me later, he paused and said, "These days you don't need a lick of sense to run a boat!"

I thought that about summed it up.

 

[Phil Fill]

I was born in Ocean Falls BC Canada, the only way to get their was by boat. The only navigation used was a hand held compass and hand drawn maps with some basic bearings and land marks. 60+ years ago.

When I bought my first boat, 19 ft run about for the Puget sound had a compass and an actual real navigation chart and a depth sounder, which was high tech at the time. That was 40+ years ago.

About 25 years ago came GPS, which changed ever thing as you could actually plot on a chart where you where with in 100 yards as they were not that accurate and real time. Now we are talking high tech.

25 years ago for our wedding present we bought a 28 ft Rienell that had a fix compass, depth sounder, GPS and RADAR. Woo, now we are really high tech as we knew where we were, and what other boats where around us.

Then 20 years ago my wife wanted a bigger boat, so she found and bought the Eagle, 58 ft, 40 ton. At abou that time electronic navigation was start to be available. So we out fitted the boat with a fix compass, depth sounder, Vhf radio, Gps, electronic navigation, and an auto pilot. Could not get more high tech than that at the time.

However 60 years later we only leave the dock on warm sunny days with 10 miles visibility with our high tech 58 ft, 40 ton trawler. so back to a compass and chart.

 

[Russ Borman]

Salmon fishing out of Monterey Bay in the early 80's. I had a 18ft Bay Runner Baja with just a compass and depth finder. And you prayed the fog would lift by noon.

 

[bilge53]

@ 16 (1969) sailing in the fog on inland lakes using time, distance and heading just to see if we could do it. We don't need no stinking chart! Worst case we would bump shore but it didn't happen often. Then RDF, LORAN, gone with the flasher in with all digital. Unless we are in home waters that I have sailed for 30 years I have a chart on the fly bridge or in the cockpit along with all the bells and whistles but most importantly my eyes. Never trust a magenta line.

 

[GFC]

First time? When I shoved off from shore of Lake Huron in my 9' row boat. It was 1951 and I was 5 and was told not to go out beyond the ends of the docks. The net year I could go beyond the docks but not past the wood stakes that kept boats out beyond the swimming areas. When I was 7 I got a motor and really hit the "high seas" (about 10' of water and 150' offshore). No nav equipment, no lights, just me and my trusty Evinrude.


Around age 15-16 I went with friends (other kids the same age) on their boats and we'd make a 15 mile run up to East Tawas, MI. The parents didn't know and that made the trip all that much better.


My first real "off shore" trip was 3 years ago when I helped take a boat from Seattle to Stockton, CA.

 

[BandB]

My first time "out to sea", which I'm defining as taking a boat I'm operating into the ocean, was 2012. At that time I had over 1400 sea days of experience (using the definition of the USCG for Captain licensing), all inland (My wife had about 400 sea days). We still went out initially only with a licensed captain and him teaching us. Since then we have added over 500 sea days, covered over 50,000 nm., many while receiving instruction, and had roughly 45 days of formal classroom and simulated and training boat instruction (including fire lab and emergency room time).

With all that we still recognize how little we know compared to those teaching us who have been doing this for 30 years.

So, label us long time boaters, new to "out to sea" and very active boaters and aggressive in continuing to try to learn more.

 

[West]

When I was a kid, my friend and I entered a sailing regatta in Cowichan Bay. He had a 15 foot open sail boat and we competed in the dinghy class.
Sadly we lost to some guy on a sailboard and came in last.

 

[C lectric]

Experience? That comes with practice and knowledge. Many different ways of getting the knowledge. Experience teaches that you do NOT depend upon only one means of position finding.
I am no expert at chart work but use charts all the time even though we also use electronic means of charting.
We have had electronics goof up. It may only be a hiccup but some of those have happened at the WRONG time. If I had not also been in practice with the charts and using them we could have landed in trouble.

Last year,[2 yrs] we were with several other boats in an area with a rock pile around and one members plotter hiccuped. It did not outright fail but just went blank. We had to get out of dodge and they had to VERY closely follow another boat. Turned out it was a chart changeover problem[???] but it took another group member with the SAME plotter who had the same problem sometime previous to get it sorted much later. The programmers picked an unfortunate location to change chart AREA group changes.

Myself, depending upon my gps, darn neared goofed a few years ago. Didn't have the zoom level set properly and missed a slight angle change in the course laid out. If I hadn't been following on paper I think I would have piled up. The paper following showed that the islet configuration, paper vs reality, didn't make sense so I stopped untill I realized what I'd done. Wrong zoom level. I have since revised the overall course to simply eliminate that dogleg.

That's why even with electronics, good as they are, you need a GOOD backup., ready and able to pick up the slack NOW.

I recommend, and personally still do, having and using charts in combination with any plotting device you use just in case.

If you don't agree, fine, but then at least have two totally independent units, one of which that can be run without ship power, at least for a few hours.


All you have to do is look at the spectacular failures and groundings in the last few years due to total dependence on electronic charts. The people involved were good/expert navigators but got lulled into complacency and guess what. Not common but you do not want it to be you.


Maybe not entirely to the point but hope not to far off. By the way from '79/'80.
Gottago.

 

[BandB]

Experience? That comes with practice and knowledge. Many different ways of getting the knowledge.

Every time we boat, even when we discuss boating, we learn something. We have to filter it on a forum. However, we do learn from the experiences of others. Some of our lake experience was even relevant. Docking or handling with twin engines was something we'd long done. Dealing the 4-6' seas was all new. I don't depend on my visual alone but shoals throughout the ICW and telling visually where the water is more shallow is really no different than on a lake.

 

[Giggitoni]

My friends and I made a couple of trips between Long Beach, California and Catalina Island in a canoe with a compass. The direction of the ocean waves helped. I don't believe my parents knew about our adventures...!

 

[Cuttyhunk47]

My experience is that Mayhem does not visit you quite as often when you still have doubts about your technology and you still have a slight apprehension of your capabilities.

Your greatest concern should be at that moment when you have all the technology required and when you feel yourself most confident. That is when we hear the whispers from Human Nature that: "You can do this!"

And, it is in that precise moment of comfort when Mother Nature takes notice. It is at that precise moment also when Uncle Murphy wakes up and decides he wants to mess with you. So, just when you begin to think that you have all the bases covered, you have new demons who turn your task into a nightmare and who don't give much of a crap about any of what you thought you could do. You are screwed!

Never allow yourself to get to that confident moment.

 

[BandB]

Anytime I'm dealing with technology, not limited to boating, I have a backup plan. I believe in redundancy. We have multiple navigation options and charts available on non-networked equipment as well as networked, plus the ability to print charts.

 

[markpierce]

My friends and I made a couple of trips between Long Beach, California and Catalina Island in a canoe with a compass. The direction of the ocean waves helped. I don't believe my parents knew about our adventures...!

You crazy guy!! Parents back then, at least mine, weren't so concerned about an individual child's safety as they had several children to replace those possibly lost. Or perhaps my father was optimistic/fatalistic after surviving being shot out of the sky.

 

[koliver]

In the late 50s, early 60s, lots of lake and ocean boating in the family 17' on a 50hp outboard. My Dad encouraged me to run the boat, so from the age of 10, I did so. Then commercial fishing at age 18, single deckhand on a salmon troller, took me from Vancouver, up the inside, the Charlottes (as they were then) SE Ak and outside to Fairweather ground. Then, nav was Loran, check with sextant, RDF. So when GPS came along things got real easy.

Presently have a large no of paper charts, several GPS, PC real time navigation, chart plotter, depth, radar. So much redundancy!

 

[dkasprzak]

Started "boating" in '58 same year I was born...don't remember my Dad not having a boat at any time in my life, his were all runabouts. Bought my first in '83 a 16'center console, it had a depth flasher, compass, paper charts, ruler and watch. In '92 moved to an old 31' Chris Craft Commander, it had a digital depth gauge, compass, same paper charts, ruler and watch. In 94 bought a 23' Compaq sailboat, it had a digital depth finder, compass, same paper charts, ruler and watch PLUS Loran-C. Sold each one of those to buy the next boat. In 99' bought and still own a 97 19' Shallow Sport, has compass, paper charts, ruler and watch. In 2015 bought a 43' Hatteras MY, has GPS Plotter, Radar, multiple digital depth finders, compass, (new) paper charts of my boating area, ruler and watch.

Learning to plot a course and run it by compass and watch for me is one of the most enjoyable aspects of boating. One of the posters mentioned "Running Ahead of the Boat" and that is exactly what you do when you have pre-plotted your course. You are aware of what visual you are looking for next, approximately how long will it take you to get to it and you get a feel for when something may be wrong with your course when it does not appear as expected.

Along with the electronics mentioned above on the Hatteras, I carry an iPad with iSailor app and two iPhones with the same app. But I still sit and plot the course before leaving, contemplating the trip trying to anticipate how it will go etc. I don't always file a proper float plan with someone but I do ALWAYS let someone I know I can depend on know the high level plan.

I still have a couple of old charts of my home waters that have been retired with much plotting on them. Its fun to look them over and remember those trips and the good, bad and frightening things that happened during them.

 

[Marin]

But I still sit and plot the course before leaving, contemplating the trip trying to anticipate how it will go etc.

I think this is a very smart practice. We do it, too, and when we go to destinations we have been to before or go to a lot, we always follow the course we previously plotted and entered for these destinations. We do this even if the visibility and conditions are perfect.

Our reasoning is that should conditions change and the visibility suddenly go down we are already running "on instruments" so the transition to this mode of operating the boat is seamless with no confusion or anxiety.

This practice has served us well on numerous occasions when cruising in good visibility and coming around an island to be confronted with dense fog right down to the surface in a channel.

The photo is a good example of this. The band of dense fog is down a strait that lies between us and our home port. The strait happens to be a primary shipping route through this area so being able to transition to near-zero visibility operations with the added task of a constant radar watch is pretty important.

We don't want to be mentally scrambling around to get used to accurately maintaining a multiple-leg course despite the best efforts of the currents to push us off it, monitoring the radar for traffic and keeping track of our relationships to any traffic there may be.

 

[BandB]

You crazy guy!! Parents back then, at least mine, weren't so concerned about an individual child's safety as they had several children to replace those possibly lost. Or perhaps my father was optimistic/fatalistic after surviving being shot out of the sky.

Yes, unfortunately, hearing him say that reminds us of the kids who ran off of Florida one afternoon not long ago never to be heard from again.

 

[O C Diver]

Started going off shore in '78 on dive charter boats as crew, later as second captain. Navigation consisted of a 2 line Northstar Loran the size of a small suitcase, Noaa charts, parallel rules and a pair of dividers. Got my first charter boat in '85. Center console with Loran, charts, parallel rules and divider. 30 years and 2,500 plus days at sea later, no more lorans, dividers, and paper charts. 2 or 3 independent electronic devices is enough for me. Might be different if I was cruising the outer reaches of Alaska, but I'm not.

Ted

 

[BandB]

Learning to plot a course and run it by compass and watch for me is one of the most enjoyable aspects of boating. One of the posters mentioned "Running Ahead of the Boat" and that is exactly what you do when you have pre-plotted your course. You are aware of what visual you are looking for next, approximately how long will it take you to get to it and you get a feel for when something may be wrong with your course when it does not appear as expected.

Along with the electronics mentioned above on the Hatteras, I carry an iPad with iSailor app and two iPhones with the same app. But I still sit and plot the course before leaving, contemplating the trip trying to anticipate how it will go etc. I don't always file a proper float plan with someone but I do ALWAYS let someone I know I can depend on know the high level plan.

I still have a couple of old charts of my home waters that have been retired with much plotting on them. Its fun to look them over and remember those trips and the good, bad and frightening things that happened during them.

We do maintain float plans.

We love to plan ahead, always thinking of options, thinking of what-if's. Right now we're talking St. Maarten and just looked at our path there from the BVI. We're no where close yet but just doing the thinking excites us. Planning is such a joy. We've planned in our minds years ahead. Just this week we were thinking of how we'd spend 3 months in Europe if we had that. Well 3 in Schengen and 1 outside or so.

One difference between us and most of you is we never saw a chart before 2012 and we learned on plotters and with electronics and while doing so, sort of back learned paper charts, sailing by compass and the other techniques. We come from a background of depending on electronics but always having a backup plan. We print our own paper when we desire it so it's always fresh. We still keep data on prior trips.

It's interesting as we learned from experienced captains and they were shocked at how fast we picked up all the electronics. Well, that's the world we've lived in. As a former teacher, my wife was use to pencil and paper so felt natural to her to use paper charts. I hadn't used a pencil in years, only used a pen to sign my name. I never hand wrote notes in business. Honestly, my writing is horrible, but my printing is good. It was a new and different experience for me.

As to pre-plotting our course, we always do that, just electronically is our primary means.