Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-06-2015, 10:54 PM   #221
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
National statistics bare out that recreational boating substantially decline when fuel hit $5 per gallon and significantly increased recently when fuel approached $2 per gallon.

Ted
So did driving. So did buying vehicles. So did RVing. So did taking vacations by air when fares and add-ons startied jacking ticket prices up to cover the airline's fuel costs.

Of course people start cutting back when things get more expensive. Even my dog undertands that one.

But that doesn't change the fact that given all the expenses involved with owning a boat--- insurance, moorage, electricity, maintenance, repairs, upgrades, etc. etc. etc. fuel remains for MOST boaters a relatively small portion of that overall expense. The boaters who use their boats full-time or have boats that use a lot of fuel, sure, the higher price of fuel can be a whack in the wallet.

But most recreational cruising powerboaters don't use their boats full time. Most of them--- judging by the appearance of all the harbors in this regioin--- use their boats very rarely if at all. Mayby a few weekends a year, perhaps a longer vacation or two.

Like private planes at an airport, most boats just sit the vast majority of the year. It's been our observation that a powerboat doesn't use fuel when it's tied to a dock with nobody on it. Perhaps it's different where you live and boats are guzzling fuel 24/7/365. I wouldn't know.

But even while the boats here are just sitting the owners are paying insurance, moorage, and power costs. Their boats are accumulating bottom growth so at some point they'll have to be hauled and cleaned off and painted. And just sitting is not that great for a boat's systems so when they do crank up to go somewhere there's a good chance some stuff won't work and will have to be fixed. The cash register just keeps on ringing whether the boat goes anywhere or not (unless it's simply been abandoned.)

But this isn't what I find amusing. What I find amusing is the massive effort some people put into trying to figure out how to shave a 10th of a gph off their fuel consumption. Sorry, a 10th of a gallon saved every hour isn't going to make enouh of a difference to the overall expense of owning a boat to care about and if it does then perhaps that owner should be doing something else. Or start thinking about downsizing.

The exceptions, of course, are the folks who love this sort of excercise and would do it even if the oil companies were paying us to use their fuel. That's cool. I can't relate to that sort of anal mentality but if someone loves doing that sort of thing they should do what they love doing, right?
__________________
Advertisement

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 11:51 PM   #222
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Marin, do you really think that the people who have the floating condos are the ones who engage in the discussions of cruising speed and fuel economy? Doubt you will find 10% of the people who posted in this thread that don't significantly use their boat. While fuel cost may not be a significant part of their budget currently, would guess that many maybe most would have the amount of boat use impacted by a return to $5 per gallon fuel.

Ted

The swing in fuel prices in the US is very different than in Canada. Current fuel prices at the dock in Vancouver are around $1.10(Cdn)/l. Probably reached around $1.50/l at the peak.

For us it would increase the pain. But $/gallon are a small part of the overall cost of boat ownership at $250k for the initial investment and $20k/ year of all expenses and maintenance.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
__________________

JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 12:13 AM   #223
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,185
There was a double whammy. The economic crisis and the fuel price hit at the same time. There were a lot of people forced out of boating by the recession and new sales dried up. The recovery was very slow.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 06:34 AM   #224
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
But this isn't what I find amusing. What I find amusing is the massive effort some people put into trying to figure out how to shave a 10th of a gph off their fuel consumption. Sorry, a 10th of a gallon saved every hour isn't going to make enouh of a difference to the overall expense of owning a boat to care about and if it does then perhaps that owner should be doing something else. Or start thinking about downsizing.
Ok, maybe I missed it, could you point to where people were discussing saving "a 10th of gph". Most of the discussions seem to revolve around 10 to 20% for the same speed or 20 to 50% for a modest reduction in speed.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 08:12 AM   #225
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
That 73 Cadillac gas guzzler is a more fuel efficient way to travel that any boat here.
bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 09:37 AM   #226
Senior Member
 
kelbylinn's Avatar
 
City: Dauphin Island, AL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Free At Last
Vessel Model: 1981 42' Grand Banks Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 154
42' GB with twin 471 detroits. 7 knots at 1550 rpms gets me about 3.5 gph.
kelbylinn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 10:03 AM   #227
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
If we confine it to recreational cruising powerboats, I would hazard a guess than at least 50% of the boats in our almost 2,000 boat harbor never go anywhere at all .................

Which would mean that for all these boaters, fuel is indeed a very small part of the overall expense of owning a boat since all of them are still paying moorage, power, and insurance costs year round..............

in the overall scheme of things, very few recreational powerboaters live on their boats, and of that set, probably very few are constantly on the move.

So I still believe that for the vast majority of recreational powerboat owners, fuel is the--- or certainly one of the--- most insignificant or unimportant costs of owning their boats.
I have found over the years that the above quotes paint an accurate picture as to the boating in my region of the country. Yes, fuel is expensive and for those that live on their boats, cruise continuously, and use their vessels for work, fuel is a big deal. They are not in the majority of boaters, however! For the rest of us, as Marin has indicated, when one tallies up their annual costs of owning a boat, fuel is pretty close to the bottom of the list.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 10:56 AM   #228
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
In my view - having been around numerous docks and mariners - in this 21st Century:


These days in Nor Cal: 40 to 60 percent of boat owners appear to be pretty dumb; monetarily foolish to say the least. Their boat[s] virtually never leave the dock. Out source cleaning crews are paid to spruce it up once in a great while (some times they re not ever cleaned); there it sits getting dirterior and looking like crap. Those "type" boat owners rarely visit even for an afternoon at the dock. Why in the heck would they ever want to own a boat??? Dirty/unused boat taint no status symbol - but it is expensive to own!! On docks in SF Delta and bay there are boats still sporting registration stickers from 2009 or before. I'm speaking of boats that if cared for correctly and used once in a while could be fine rides for fun-times. Strange thing - I've seen legal-requirement notices by state officials (CG as well) plastered onto some of these boats' windows. Time passes and the notice fades or becomes unstuck and the registration sticker on boat still remains years old with no recent registration anywhere in sight. Must be that those "type" boat owners keep officials at bay by paying the registration and dock fees but never even visit to place the sticker on the boat??!!

Now I go back in history to 1950's / 60's /70's on LI NY, NY NY, Maine and other NE states. Seems to me that in that age most power boat owners took pride in their rides and actually used them - pretty darn often! Fuel prices probably have a lot to do with this.

Guess the mariners renting docks are in luck that the high (40 to 60) percentage of non-use boat owners keep paying for their boat berths... etc. Otherwise there may become many empty slips.

Happy Boat-Use Daze! - Art
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 11:02 AM   #229
Senior Member
 
mahal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 436
My fuel expense is probably lower than anyone's here since we do not use our boat much due to other interests. That said, I appreciate this thread. Since this forum is called "Trawler Forum", I thought the members here are either doing extensive cruising or, like me, aspire to someday. Shouldn't discussions of fuel burn be an important part of a trawler forum? Don't we own slow boats for fuel efficiency and range? Or do we just like going slow?
mahal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 01:48 PM   #230
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
We enjoy going slow. Throwing a big wake doesn't excite.



WOT: 4 gph at 7.3 knots (2400 rpm)
"Max" cruise: 3 gph at 7.1 knots (2200 rpm)
"Normal" cruise: 1.7 gph at 6.3 knots (1800 rpm)
Max torque speed: 1.2 gph at 5.7 knots (1400 rpm)
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 02:19 PM   #231
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Regarding fuel prices.... I was in a meeting last week during which the future of fuel prices was the main topic. The jist of the discussion was enjoy the low prices now because they will not last. Southwest Airlines, for example, which has always been very savvy about their fuel situation, has jumped back into fuel hedging because they have a pretty good idea of what's coming.

The data we were shown indicates the Saudi economy can absorb about three more years of the current barrel price range after which the country will be in serious trouble. The current low price is artificial as it's the result of overproduction aimed at manipulating influence over the market. So something is going to start changing, probably sooner rather than later.

Mahal's question about why do we own slow boats is a good one. I think the main reason is that cruising boats of the types most of us have, most of which date from the mid 1960s up through the 1990s, are very heavy for their sizes. Our 1973 36' boat weighs 30,000 pounds. The two diesels in it push it along at about 8 knots at a combined fuel burn of about 5gph.

This same semi-planing boat can be pushed along at 20 knots if you put enough power in it. The fuel consumption will be pretty staggering however.

It boils down to how many boats do you want to sell? Sure, there are people out there who could buy the boat and go 20 knots at 30 or 40 gph or whatever it would be. But there are far, far more people who could buy the boat if it was powered to go 8 knots at 5 gph.

A new cruising boat is very expensive. Many hundreds of thousands of dollars to well over a million. The vast majority of people who would like to get into cruising don't have that kind of money. So they buy a used boat. I would guess the majority of the boats purchased are from the 70s, 80's and 90s. These boats were made for the markets that existed at the time, not some future market. So the 1973 boat we have here in the PNW was made for the 1973 new-boat market, not the 2015 new-boat market. I think it's important to keep this in mind when discussing things like why boats have the engines they do and weigh what they do and go the speeds that they do and burn the fuel that they do.

When I say that fuel is a relatively small portion of the overall cost of owning a cruising powerboat I'm talking about the kinds of boats most people on this forum have: made in the 60s through the 90s, heavy, relatively low powered and slow.

It's certainly possible to have a cruising boat with which fuel is a significant portion of its ownership cost. But I believe the majority of boats like the ones most forum members have and the way most cruising powerboaters use their boats combine to make fuel cost one of the lower costs associated with owning this type of boat.

i don't know any boaters, power or sail, who have altered the operation of their boat due to the fluctuating price of fuel. When the price got up over $4 there was lots of bitching and moaning and perhaps some people reduced the number of times they used their boat by a bit. But nobody seemed to change the way they operated their boat. I did hear comments like "We could slow down and use a little less fuel but then it would take forever to get anywhere so we just go the same speed."

This is certainly what I have observed in this area. Perhaps it's different in other regions where boating against strong currents is not the norm, I don't know.

The only exception I know is a good friend with a custom lobsterboat with a 420 hp Cat who dropped his cruising speed from 16 knots to about 9 when the cost of fuel was really up there. But at 16 inots his fuel consumption is pretty significant.

Reducing the speed of our boat from 8 knots to 7 or even 6 would reduce fuel use and cost, sure. But the cost reduction would be insignificant, especially when one considers we'd be burning less fuel but burning it for a much longer period of time. I've not done the calculations because I believe it's a complete waste of time and effort but I suspect the overall cost saving would either be zero or would be so insignificant that it would not begin to make up for the frustration of being passed by every local glacier that was out for a weekend spin.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 03:32 PM   #232
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post

Mahal's question about why do we own slow boats is a good one. .
Because this is a Trawler Forum and the word is most often identified with slower boats. Slow boats are not the majority, just the majority in a segment of boat sales. We lived on a lake with thousands of boats and virtually no slow boats, certainly none running at 7 knots. Go to FLIBS today and slow boats will be in a definite minority. Slow boats appeal to a particular demographic too in terms of age, finances, and attitudes.

Why do some have slow and some have fast, simply different tastes and different priorities in boating. There's no right or wrong nor any reason to feel a need to justify any type boat. Speed is just one characteristic of the boats.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 04:07 PM   #233
Senior Member
 
Liberty2015's Avatar
 
City: Pittwater
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Liberty
Vessel Model: 57 foot Halvorsen
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 178
Let's move on people
Liberty2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 05:41 PM   #234
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty2015 View Post
Let's move on people
Wifey B: Slowly or fast?
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 06:05 PM   #235
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty2015 View Post
Let's move on people
Can you substitute with a more interesting topic?
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 06:23 PM   #236
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty2015 View Post
Let's move on people
At what speed and to where... suggestions!!
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 02:29 PM   #237
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
What I find amusing is the massive effort some people put into trying to figure out how to shave a 10th of a gph off their fuel consumption. Sorry, a 10th of a gallon saved every hour isn't going to make enouh of a difference to the overall expense of owning a boat to care about and if it does then perhaps that owner should be doing something else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Ok, maybe I missed it, could you point to where people were discussing saving "a 10th of gph".
You didn't miss anything, Ted. Marin made up that figure and that position to have something to argue against. That is a classic Straw Man argument.

If one doesn't like the topic of discussion here on TF, he is free to skip it. Shutting down conversation for the sake of one person's lack of interest goes against what we are here on Trawler Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahal View Post
My fuel expense is probably lower than anyone's here since we do not use our boat much due to other interests. That said, I appreciate this thread. Since this forum is called "Trawler Forum", I thought the members here are either doing extensive cruising or, like me, aspire to someday. Shouldn't discussions of fuel burn be an important part of a trawler forum? Don't we own slow boats for fuel efficiency and range? Or do we just like going slow?
Well said! Of course, we want and deserve to know the expected fuel consumption of a vessel we might consider owning. To suggest otherwise is either intentionally deceptive or ignorant. The only ones I know who don't know or care about their fuel consumption are the very rich. And some of them have professional crews to manage their vessel. To the rest of us, it's a valid and not insignificant matter.

I agree with Liberty2015...let's continue the conversation.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 03:53 PM   #238
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Ok, maybe I missed it, could you point to where people were discussing saving "a 10th of gph".

No, you didn't miss anything. Once again I assumed a higher degree of perception than I should of. The "10th of gph" comment was something often used in communications to make a point. It's called "exaggeration."

However every time I do this it seems to completely befuddle some people here who I can only assume are only capable of taking everything they read completely literally.

As to Flywright's comment about trying to shut a dialogue down, that's just silly. You lot can go on talking about reducing fuel use by whatever amount you want as long as you want. What you do with your boats and how long you want to talk about it is totally up to you.

I simply expressed the point that in my opinion expending a lot of effort in an attempt to reduce fuel by "a not very big amount" is a somewhat fruitless exercise given the way most recreational boaters use the kinds of boats that most people on this forum have. Are there exceptions? Absolutely, and for them being concerned over fuel burn is an important consideration.

Given that some people agreed with the position I stated, I would not say it's an attempt to shut the dialogue down but simply an expression of one point of view.

But your point is well taken and is good information for me so thank you. From here on I'll do my best to "See Spot Run" the language in my posts so the folks here who get confused by the use of more complex communication techniques won't get all wrapped around the axle.

Sorry, I just realized I've done it again since some who are reading this are probably now getting upset at my implying that they are going to crawl under their cars and wrap themselves around an axle. I'll try to think of a simple, more literal phrase than "wrapped around the axle" and get back to you.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 04:02 PM   #239
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,890
While fuel cost might not be major compared to other boat expenses, it falls in a different category. It's a variable cost. Many others are fixed.

You decide to buy a boat: Purchase, insurance, dockage, taxes, most maintenance are the same whether you run it much or not. The money is gone even for a "dock queen".

Now one day you decide to run a 2000nm trip. Your out of pocket expenses will go up with the fuel, some maintenance, short term dockage, other traveling expenses. Fuel in that instance is a major or the major expense. In this case it DOES matter if you can save a gph or so.

In March/April of this year, I burned 1000gal of diesel in a trip from NC to the Keys, to the Bahamas and back. Avg about $3/gal, so $3k. Save ten percent of that, and that's $300, enough for some cool stuff or other fun. It does not matter how it compares to other boat expenses, I already decided to own the boat and that money is gone whether I took the trip or not. Fixed vs. variable.

Marin: You make many valid points in your posts, but can be rather hyperbolic. That's annoying to many.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 04:02 PM   #240
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,724
Who is this guy w 117 posts that obviously thinks he can tell the rest of us what to do.

His "move on" post very out of place.
__________________

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hull speed duckcaptainbill Marlow - Mainship 4 03-02-2012 12:08 AM
Your speed at idle markpierce Power Systems 34 10-28-2011 08:19 PM
speed seal skipperdude General Discussion 23 08-04-2010 04:25 PM
Spray at Speed Marin Grand Banks 1 11-24-2008 12:32 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012