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Old 01-02-2015, 02:27 PM   #161
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I have a friend with a 37, the inside living area is very nice, but the engine room is diabolical. I spent an hour or two with my belly propped up on a water lift muffler, jammed in front of the aft bunk while I stretched into the hole where the 2 Hinos lived, trying to change out a "safety solenoid" that had baked and was preventing starting. Bonding with 12 gauge wire? Too-small battery cables?

I'd equate it to an 80s Cadillac, all looks and no substance. It even has fuzzy upholstery. I guess you have to get to a 47 before you get the substance?
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Old 01-02-2015, 03:40 PM   #162
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I crawled all over a 4788 yesterday and was pretty impressed with the layout, fit and finish and construction. This was a 2000 model and there were no leaks and the gel coat was still shiny. It had 3 sliding doors and all three took a bit of effort to open/close. They were designed and built to be light and this was definitely one of the liveliest boats in the marina, in about 10 kt winds. Electric and water runs were neat and with all valves accessible. The pilothouse was amazing for space, layout and visibility. The living space is well throughout with storage everywhere. This was offset by a very tight engine room.


In summary...I would not be scared of buying one of these. As in any boat, if the PO has taken care of it, they will be fine. Being fully cored means there is nothing to rot. I would probably want a ride in one to see how it docks and rides at anchor in wind. This is all of course, just my opinion.
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Old 01-02-2015, 03:53 PM   #163
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I am headed to Florida as I type this, to look at a couple of Bayliner 4788's, in Crystal River and Miami. (I am also going to get a free cup of Cuban coffee from Parks). The decision to sell our Jarvis Newman 46, has been a hard one and still may not happen, it's such a unique and forgiving boat and awesome for fishing. However, living aboard the last 6 months has shown we need a little more space or a home base. As I have sworn to never cut grass again, we will get another boat, probably a Bayliner. Can I afford a Defever, yes, a Nordhaven, no. Am I average...probably, is Eric average, probably, just owns a Willard.
Wifey B: Rhino is a cool boat just like the Willy. What we say to people who intend to use it as a home or a second home is you're buying a boat and a house. Don't get one that just fits as one or the other. We loved loved loved the boat we had on the lake. But a gas powered not salt water protected bowrider just wasn't the boat for here. Like houses and I guess boats too, none perfect and the odds now that you're looking for something as both go way down.

Thing change. I don't think of it as "stuff happens" (So proud of myself not typing what I think) because that's negative. In your case it's spending more time on it and that's grrrrrreeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaattttttttt. When we're older will we want the same? If our use changes then what. Heck I can't predict tomorrow. I mean like this was a four day trip to Key West and we went there and then Naples and now taking the Okeechobee route back across. And we didn't decide all that until sitting in Key West as the Wench was dropped from the mast. I mean right now I'd freak if I could only go 8 knots but I might like that 20 years from now. Right now we carry lots of people, but could be more or less in the future.

What do you expect from someone like me who was just taking a two week vacation to Florida and midway through it decided to move. But let life carry you where it will. Good luck on whether you keep Rhino or get Baylo.
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:08 PM   #164
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Didn't consider a Bayliner since they didn't meet my top four selection criteria (all functional but won't bore you by repeating them for the nth time.). Hopefully, we all have boats satisfying our individual needs.
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:13 PM   #165
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Didn't consider a Bayliner since they didn't meet my top four selection criteria (all functional but won't bore you by repeating them for the nth time.). Hopefully, we all have boats satisfying our individual needs.
You are absolutely right Mark. I would not consider a steel boat without a flying bridge.....I want your cannon though
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:28 PM   #166
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Boats are designed by boat buyers.
I think I understand what Eric is saying here, and if I do he's correct. Our airplanes are design by our buyers, too. Not the wings and engines, but the size, range, payload, interior, and flight decks are designed by us to meet our customers' requirements and desires.

We used to not do this. WE designed every aspect of the planes and then presented them to our customers as done deals. "Here's what you need, " we'd say.

Most of the time, this approach didn't work out very well, the most famous incident being the 707 prototype, the 367-80. We told the airlines that 3-2 seating was just fine and was exactly what they needed. They told us to piss off, and if we didn't redesign the Model 700 as we were going to call it, to have 3-3 seating they would take their business to Douglas, whose DC-8 was 3-3.

We bitched and moaned and told the airlines they didn't know what they were doing, and they said, "Fine. Screw you, we're calling Douglas." And they did. At which point we said something like "Holy crap, they're serious." and we redesigned the fuselage of the passenger version of the 700 to be 3-3 (the military tanker version-- KC-135-- retained the Dash-80s narrower fuselage).

The airlines said, "Cool, you came to your senses," and started ordering the 700. Our ad agency said that "Seven Hundred" sounded sort of dorky, how about calling it the "Seven-Oh-Seven" instea? Boeing's CEO at the time, the legendary Bill Allen, said, "I don't give a crap what it's called as long as it sells." So 707 it became. Designed--- as Eric said--- by its potential buyers.

I think Eric's statement applies to all consumer goods. In the early 1960s American Marine commissioned naval architect Ken Smith to design a diesel-powered cabin cruiser that had some of the attributes of the commercial fish boats of the day. Forward pilothouse, main cabin where the fish hold would have been, walkaround main deck, high bow-deep forefoot for cutting though choppy or rough(ish) water, and so forth.

The result was Spray (photo). Nice boat, the people she was built for loved her, and she still exists. American Marine liked Spray, too, but they decided that while the hull design was right on the money, the cabin configuration wasn't the most ideal. So they (or somebody) redesigned it to better meet what the buyers of a cruising boat of this type would want.

The result was the first Grand Banks 36.

So I think Eric is right on the money. Particularly with products that are meant to appeal to the largest possible market. Which is exactly what Bayliner boats are. I have no idea of their research process, but however they did their market research, that's what guid3ed the overall design of their boats.

There are a lot of people who don't like designs that are meant to appeal to as many people as possible. They want something more unique, or designed to do something most buyers aren't interested in doing or can't afford to do. That's why their are companies like Aston Martin and Morgan and Lamborghini and Willard and Seahorse Marine (I think that's the rignt name for the Coot folks), and Nordhavn and so forth.

But even their cars or boats or whatever are designed to appeal to a specific market, so it and be said that their products, too, are designed by their buyers.

It took me a lot more sentences than it took Eric, but I think he accurately summed up the realities of creating a consumer product like a Bayliner.
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:56 PM   #167
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Didn't consider a Bayliner since they didn't meet my top four selection criteria (all functional but won't bore you by repeating them for the nth time.). Hopefully, we all have boats satisfying our individual needs.
Wifey B: Now don't do that to us. We need a top four. And you may be repeating but some of us may not have read them.

They didn't meet our top one....which was a new boat. I think my hubby dreams sometimes of reviving those boats. But then he has weird dreams. Moving Grand Banks to Washington was one.

Of course our rule number one was not going to have any business involvement with boating, pleasure only. So far we've stuck to it.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:30 PM   #168
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\But then he has weird dreams. Moving Grand Banks to Washington was one..
They almost did that some years ago. Sort of.

The then-CEO of GB thought the company needed an entry-level-type boat. The GB32 was long out of prodution, as was the GB36. So he was talking about a new, small GB priced to attract new people to this kind of boating. He felt (at that time, the situation has since changed) that the best market for this boat would be North America.

So his idea was to make the hulls and the interior modules in Singapore/Malaysia, then ship the finished hulls and modules to the Puget Sound area in Washington where the interiors would be mated to the hulls and the boat finished.

If you know how GBs are made, you know that they make totally finished interior modules for the cabins complete with doors, cabinets, etc. These modules are lowered into place in the completedd hulls. They've been doing it this way forever, almost.

The reasoning behind the CEO's build the pieces here-ship them there-put them together process was based on the fact that shipping the components would be a lot cheaper than shipping the completed boats. And there may have been some other financial/tax/registry/etc. advantages, too.

One of his reasons for choosing Washington was the large number (at that time) of experienced people in the boat manufacturing industry here, what with the Nordic Tug, Bayliner, Pacific Trawler, ex-Uniflite, C-Dory, SeaSport, Delta and so on workforces.

The idea never came to fruition and Grand Banks pursued the opposite course, aiming increasingly at the higher end of the market. In the long run, I guess this was a good decision as I read in the trades recently that Grand Banks is now having profitable years. And their market has shifted from North America to Europe, Asia, and the Middle East.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:44 PM   #169
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How many folks on this forum want to be tied up at the same dock with the guy that is having 25-30 of his close friends over to his Bayliner for cocktails????
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:46 PM   #170
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How many folks on this forum want to be tied up at the same dock with the guy that is having 25-30 of his close friends over to his Bayliner for cocktails????
Anybody that wants to see real people having fun!!!
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:56 PM   #171
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How many folks on this forum want to be tied up at the same dock with the guy that is having 25-30 of his close friends over to his Bayliner for cocktails????
Sounds like an opportunity to have some free drinks on my neighbor if you ask me

Plus you could snag an available anchor on her way out of the party
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:57 PM   #172
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Sadly , that's exactly the mind set of many of the Bayliner owners.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:57 PM   #173
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They almost did that some years ago. Sort of.

The then-CEO of GB thought the company needed an entry-level-type boat. The GB32 was long out of prodution, as was the GB36. So he was talking about a new, small GB priced to attract new people to this kind of boating. He felt (at that time, the situation has since changed) that the best market for this boat would be North America.

So his idea was to make the hulls and the interior modules in Singapore/Malaysia, then ship the finished hulls and modules to the Puget Sound area in Washington where the interiors would be mated to the hulls and the boat finished.

If you know how GBs are made, you know that they make totally finished interior modules for the cabins complete with doors, cabinets, etc. These modules are lowered into place in the completedd hulls. They've been doing it this way forever, almost.

The reasoning behind the CEO's build the pieces here-ship them there-put them together process was based on the fact that shipping the components would be a lot cheaper than shipping the completed boats. And there may have been some other financial/tax/registry/etc. advantages, too.

One of his reasons for choosing Washington was the large number (at that time) of experienced people in the boat manufacturing industry here, what with the Nordic Tug, Bayliner, Pacific Trawler, ex-Uniflite, C-Dory, SeaSport, Delta and so on workforces.

The idea never came to fruition and Grand Banks pursued the opposite course, aiming increasingly at the higher end of the market. In the long run, I guess this was a good decision as I read in the trades recently that Grand Banks is now having profitable years. And their market has shifted from North America to Europe, Asia, and the Middle East.
After three years on the watch list of the Singapore stock exchange, Grand Banks had one barely profitable year following many years of losses. However, it was followed in the next quarter, which ended September 30 by substantial losses and a significant decrease in sales. The acquisition of Palm Beach and making Mark Richards CEO gave the stock a boost but it's now fallen back where it was.

63% of their sales are in North America. Their sales in Europe have gone from bad to worse. Washington still has a great labor pool of knowledgeable boat builders. With Christensen closed at the moment at least that adds to potential employees. And it's not like their costs in Malaysia are low. It won't happen, but I remain convinced it would make good sense.

I hate seeing their continued difficulties. As to the 36 you mentioned, I still say it could be beneficial to rebirth some of the smaller models but they keep pushing bigger.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:42 PM   #174
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Sadly , that's exactly the mind set of many of the Bayliner owners.
And many other kinds of boatowners who might like a bash now and then.

There are plenty of Bayliner guys who are the opposite too and like their solitude.

Thus the birth of a thread like this....generalizations galore.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:58 PM   #175
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Wifey B: Now don't do that to us. We need a top four. And you may be repeating but some of us may not have read them.
OK ...

Wide, 360-degree decks, similarly high, strong railings and views from the pilothouse as well as keel-protected running gear. Beyond that, the boat could be purchased new (with a no-additional-cost custom paint job) at an affordable price, even considering overseas shipping and related costs. ... The builder didn't charge extra for installing owner-provided Kahlenberg air horns. The boat sleeps two comfortably (five in a pinch), feeds six, and entertains eight to twelve (which our local TF group can attest.)
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:12 PM   #176
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Sadly , that's exactly the mind set of many of the Bayliner owners.

I bet it don't take you long to do a bottom job with that big brush you swing.
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:19 PM   #177
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...

The result was Spray (photo). Nice boat, the people she was built for loved her, and she still exists. American Marine liked Spray, too, but they decided that while the hull design was right on the money, the cabin configuration wasn't the most ideal. So they (or somebody) redesigned it to better meet what the buyers of a cruising boat of this type would want.

...
Except for the lack of forward-leaning (wannabe) pilothouse windows, the Spray appears much like the Coot.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:04 PM   #178
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As to the 36 you mentioned, I still say it could be beneficial to rebirth some of the smaller models but they keep pushing bigger.
The problem with the smaller GBs---32,36, even 42--- is that they were built like GBs. Which automatically made them very expensive.

With all the other boats in this price range to choose from, and many of them getting better in terms of quality, fewer and fewer people were willing to cough up a zillion dollars for "just" a 32 or 36 foot boat when there were almost-comparable boats in the same size range for a whole lot less money.

It finally reached the point where the smaller GB programs simply had no hope of being profitable anymore.

The first one they killed off was the GB32. They stopped GB36 production in the mid-90s. However, there was still a demand for the GB36, so the put the boat back into production as what I call the GB36 Lite, which was designed to be less expensive to build. So single engine (unless a buyer specifically asked for twins), almsot no teak, simplified interior, and so on.

They sold a few (there was one going through the Bellingham dealer when we brought our old 73 GB36 up in 1998) but not enough. The GB36 program was shut down for good in the early 2000s.

If GB wants to create a more "everyman" boat, they are going to have to do some serious thinking about how to retain the GB image and reputatation while building a boat in a way that is both affordable and profitable. I think it would require a very different mindset than the company has ever had before. At this point, I am skeptical that they could pull it off.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:32 PM   #179
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At this point, I am skeptical that they could pull it off.
I have real concern about them pulling anything off. The money they've gone through the past few years is quite staggering.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:39 PM   #180
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OK ...

Wide, 360-degree decks, similarly high, strong railings and views from the pilothouse as well as keel-protected running gear. Beyond that, the boat could be purchased new (with a no-additional-cost custom paint job) at an affordable price, even considering overseas shipping and related costs. ... The builder didn't charge extra for installing owner-provided Kahlenberg air horns. The boat sleeps two comfortably (five in a pinch), feeds six, and entertains eight to twelve (which our local TF group can attest.)
Wifey B: Thanks for humoring me. I like your first four. Views are so important. It's like why be on a boat if you can't see anything. And railings. We have looked at so many boats that you just wondered why they were so low. Probably some designer dude going for aesthetics. Well, it's not aesthetically pleasing to me for someone to tumble over and off the boat.
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