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Old 12-29-2014, 05:03 PM   #101
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I think Tollycraft was an excellent boat. Another I hate is dead. Your comment about overbuilt is interesting. Built to purpose is always something I think of. Some boats have hulls built to cross oceans on boats that never will. I've also seen boats that just were trying to protect themselves by adding more and more glass rather than updating their methodology.
Mr.Tolly was stickler for correct build-out and long term durability. So much so that I believe many of his boat "creations" (if they are properly cared for) will last longer than most of us currently participating on TF.
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Old 12-29-2014, 05:31 PM   #102
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Cool thing was taht Tollys were built in Kelso WA!
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Old 12-29-2014, 05:58 PM   #103
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Cool thing was taht Tollys were built in Kelso WA!
There's been so much great building in Washington. I don't even know all the small builders that were there. Unfortunately, most of the larger builders are either gone or in serious trouble today. Westport is the one that has remained successful. Northern may have another reincarnation under another owner but weren't much of a factor before. Christensen is closed for reorganization, suppose to be announced nearly three weeks ago, but not a sound since then. I have no knowledge of activity at Delta. American Tugs is still there I think but very little activity. Nordic Tugs is still there. I hope Christensen gets sorted out and returns to business. I think it will. Still a tremendous amount of boat building activity in the area not being utilized. There are also great naval architects in the area. Oh and Coastal Craft, across the border is a small builder that I find interesting too.

There was an small effort earlier in the year to pull a manufacturer to the US and to that area. If I was looking to put a boat manufacturing operation anywhere in the world, it would be in Washington.
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Old 12-29-2014, 09:18 PM   #104
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i drive by the Delta plant periodically in the course of my work. From a distance they seem to be turning out new boats and working on older ones.
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:12 PM   #105
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i drive by the Delta plant periodically in the course of my work. From a distance they seem to be turning out new boats and working on older ones.
I hope so. They were showing the same boats in construction for ages on their website but now they've taken that site down and working on a new one. I don't know how much refit vs. new business they have.
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:15 PM   #106
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..but are Bayliners that bad...

To answer the OP, not in my opinion. In fact I can possibly see a 38'er in my future, lot of well thought out boat for the money.
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Old 12-30-2014, 12:02 AM   #107
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It's nice having a unique boat (not a Bayliner) although the compliments do get repetitive.
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Old 12-30-2014, 02:55 AM   #108
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B-Delta is doing quite well and weathered the downturn in fine fashion. Over the past few years they have expanded their capacity and expanded the build size to 100meters. Last time I talked to the folks down there, about 6 months ago, they were working off a 2 year backlog.
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Old 12-30-2014, 06:52 AM   #109
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>It's nice having a unique boat (not a Bayliner) although the compliments do get repetitive<

Unique is fun but suffer from the lack of improvements that hundreds of owners will suggest to a factory over decades of actual use.

One stock build might be fine for some operations , but multiple improvements from different sources can improve the breed .

10,000 minds working instead of just 1 or 2.

The Cookie advantage.
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Old 12-30-2014, 08:44 AM   #110
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FF; You beat me to that response. When I look at the evolution over the production line of my own boat (1984-1991), they included very few improvements. I've gone to a great deal of trouble and cost to make some of the ones that "look" obvious to me. Even something like having the genset location under the galley looks so absolutely provocative to most of us, yet its relocation to a new hatch under the veranda was relatively unchallenging to the design and construction of the boat, unless one wants to argue the 5/8" squat it added to the stern. Sure, there is the cost to do it, but I can only imagine that the cost at the build site would have been much less than mine. Of course, I can't see the other factors that the builder or the Architect could have.

At Bayliner, for example, something like this could have probably been spotted and changed over a year or two. At the boat shows, I always went to Bayliner, Carver, Silverton and Sea Ray to find out what kind of new ideas they were committing to production. Sometimes I'd copy them.
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Old 12-30-2014, 09:14 AM   #111
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For really reasonable "initial" cost...


Just go purchase a 1940's thru 60's, 45' to 65' Chris / Stephens / Matthews / Trumpy or other quality yester-year wood built craft. There are some nice ones still in relatively OK condition floating around or on the hard of those makes in that size range. Then you can customize to your hearts desire with a couple wood working tools, good lumber, strong fasteners, and high tech paint/coatings. Or... of course... you can simply pay "Scary" to do a great bang-up job for ya!


You'll have a real purdy classic that hundreds compliment you on and will probably out last all of us!


Or... purchase a really nice condition FRP Bayliner / Meridian / Tollycraft / Grand Banks / Manatee or other brand and simply kick your feet up while on the hook or rest back in the captain's chair while cruising to your hearts delight... and, of course, pocketbook's capabilities!

Happy & Fun Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 12-30-2014, 09:43 AM   #112
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You do the same thing over and over enough times and you have to either get very good at it or very bad at it. Bayliner got very good.

Now, as to having other less popular and more unique boats, there's certainly enjoyment to that. It's the reason some people buy cars you see few of as opposed to sticking with the main brands.

It's funny that we have more exotic cars as we drive them very little, but as to the boats we use very heavily, we have chosen production tried and true models. When we had cars we drove every day to and from work, we were much more mainstream.

Now the more unique boats can be great boats as well, depending on the builder and how well they've been maintained and stood the test of time. As far as a new boat, we don't have the patience nor the risk tolerance to go with a custom boat or hull #1 or any boat although a low volume but long produced production boat we'd have no issue with. But we want to be able to ride in one just like what we're building.

Interesting too as most boats are well built, the majority somewhere between 6 and 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. But then there are a couple of brands that would honestly be well designed but have a history of problems and require major refits but have gained almost a cult following. In many cases it's not about boating for the buyers but the "pleasure" of rebuilding. It's like buying a rusted out vintage car and starting a renovation. Why those specific boats have such an allure is hard for me to appreciate as I wasn't alive in their heyday. And while they're obviously quite old, still they haven't held up comparably at all to a Bayliner, Sea Ray, or Hatteras.

As my wife would say, I think Mark's Coot is a really "cool" boat. It falls in a nice spot between some of the extremes. It's a very unique and relatively low volume boat, but it's also a production boat by a company that's been doing it now over 30 years.
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Old 12-30-2014, 10:08 AM   #113
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So someone interested in a Bayliner should be considering vintage wooden boats too?


Seems like a guy wanting a brand new Mazda Miata with a factory warranty is not going to consider purchasing an MG. The quest to convince a production boat buyer into something grander continues


To the OP, have you looked at any Bayliners yet? Don't tease...boat shopping is twice as fun as owning it!!!
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Old 12-30-2014, 10:41 AM   #114
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Our DeFever is hull number 168 of that series. Yes practice can make perfect but customization can make perfect better. The considerable custom work requested on our vessel of the builder, Pocta, makes the vessel less a production vessel than a custom build once beyond the hull and cabin layups. Few DeFevers during the past few decades have been spec boats which is why the builder has stayed in business as long as they have.

Art DeFever intended it that way as he negotiated with Pocta to be the builder of choice as they moved from Taiwan to mainland China in the late 90s. The heavy duty running gear, best FRP materials available, seamless cabin to hull connections, solid glass hulls and tank layouts would remain fixed as each DeFever was laid up. But engines, HVAC, stabilizer choices, furniture and bedding, instruments, counter tops, thrusters, and plumbing can be modified by a new owner.

So IMHO the notion that a production vessel is some sort of lab tested work of art is only valid in the eyes of those who own and attempt to justify them and so - yesterday. CAD, SCRIMP, vacuum infusion, and other computer programs have so changed the build game that sensible customization is pretty simple.

If one goes to Nordhavn or Krogen today and asks for extensive custom details on a new build, you will get them. Engines, twins, singles, stabilizers, hydraulic vs electric, fly bridge etc. A model of Nordhavn I am familiar with, the 55, can be ordered with singles or twin power, stateroom layout, dry stack or wet exhaust and stretched to 60 feet as is now common with that model. The 55 is now gone through new owner demands ie customization. Similarly customized is the 52 , a stretched 47, for which I have 4 different interior layouts. And there is even an aft stateroom layout for the 52!

Today, all manners of customization are possible from most reputable trawler builders, provided of course that they are not compromising the vessel's basic safety/hull/stability specs and intended purpose as a safe passage maker.
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:12 AM   #115
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Our DeFever is hull number 168 of that series. Yes practice can make perfect but customization can make perfect better. The considerable custom work requested on our vessel of the builder, Pocta, makes the vessel less a production vessel than a custom build once beyond the hull and cabin layups. Few DeFevers during the past few decades have been spec boats which is why the builder has stayed in business as long as they have.

Art DeFever intended it that way as he negotiated with Pocta to be the builder of choice as they moved from Taiwan to mainland China in the late 90s. The heavy duty running gear, best FRP materials available, seamless cabin to hull connections, solid glass hulls and tank layouts would remain fixed as each DeFever was laid up. But engines, HVAC, stabilizer choices, furniture and bedding, instruments, counter tops, thrusters, and plumbing can be modified by a new owner.

So IMHO the notion that a production vessel is some sort of lab tested work of art is only valid in the eyes of those who own and attempt to justify them and so - yesterday. CAD,



SCRIMP, vacuum infusion, and other computer programs have so changed the build game that sensible customization is pretty simple.

If one goes to Nordhavn or Krogen today and asks for extensive custom details on a new build, you will get them. Engines, twins, singles, stabilizers, hydraulic vs electric, fly bridge etc. A model of Nordhavn I am familiar with, the 55, can be ordered with singles or twin power, stateroom layout, dry stack or wet exhaust and stretched to 60 feet as is now common with that model. The 55 is now gone through new owner demands ie customization. Similarly customized is the 52 , a stretched 47, for which I have 4 different interior layouts. And there is even an aft stateroom layout for the 52!

Today, all manners of customization are possible from most reputable trawler builders, provided of course that they are not compromising the vessel's basic safety/hull/stability specs and intended purpose as a safe passage maker.
At what cost $$$ wise? Now this is thread drift from the question of Bayliners, the most prolific builder of production yachts.
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:21 AM   #116
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Exactly!


So is bcarli (the OP) going to look at a used Bayliner, say a 40 or 50 series, and during the inspection request all these modifications be done? Purchase it and then lay it up for some serious refit? Take a middle of the pack boat and outfit it with top of the line everything?


Guy wanted to make sure the hull wasn't going to split in two on a cruise, not if they compare to a spec built boat.


Not to sound rude but when I wheeled with Range Rover and Land Rover clubs these guys would always want to talk about how their rig is best, proper winch technique, and having tech days which are gathering around the bonnet and critique engineering. This conversation reminds me of that. Nothing to do with if another vehicle will simply get the job done. Used the term "Elitist" to describe the situation...


Cheers Mates
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:21 AM   #117
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You do the same thing over and over enough times and you have to either get very good at it or very bad at it. Bayliner got very good.

Now, as to having other less popular and more unique boats, there's certainly enjoyment to that. It's the reason some people buy cars you see few of as opposed to sticking with the main brands.

It's funny that we have more exotic cars as we drive them very little, but as to the boats we use very heavily, we have chosen production tried and true models. When we had cars we drove every day to and from work, we were much more mainstream.

Now the more unique boats can be great boats as well, depending on the builder and how well they've been maintained and stood the test of time. As far as a new boat, we don't have the patience nor the risk tolerance to go with a custom boat or hull #1 or any boat although a low volume but long produced production boat we'd have no issue with. But we want to be able to ride in one just like what we're building.

Interesting too as most boats are well built, the majority somewhere between 6 and 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. But then there are a couple of brands that would honestly be well designed but have a history of problems and require major refits but have gained almost a cult following. In many cases it's not about boating for the buyers but the "pleasure" of rebuilding. It's like buying a rusted out vintage car and starting a renovation. Why those specific boats have such an allure is hard for me to appreciate as I wasn't alive in their heyday. And while they're obviously quite old, still they haven't held up comparably at all to a Bayliner, Sea Ray, or Hatteras.

As my wife would say, I think Mark's Coot is a really "cool" boat. It falls in a nice spot between some of the extremes. It's a very unique and relatively low volume boat, but it's also a production boat by a company that's been doing it now over 30 years.
I too think Mark's Coot is a very nice boat - for him! Our boats are a really nice boats too - for us. Your boat(s) are really nice - for you. Al's boat(s) are nice - for him. So On and So Forth...!!!

In other words: We all seem to have boats that are very nice for each of us! Therefore... it stands to reason... boat luv is not only due to liking marine living/playing in general, but is also due to the soul of the boat-creature we have/own (or maybe she has/owns us - lol) IMHO that is why we male captains refer to our floating love affairs in the female gender such as she or her. We can get into her any time… and ride her out in many ways for many days. She won’t complain, too often or too much… so long as you keep her well maintained and looken pretty!

I wonder if female boat owners refer to their floating luv affair as he or him. They could ride him out on many occasions – Woopie!!!

Regarding transgender folks… would be interesting to learn what they call their boat??

Happy (very nearly) 2015 New Year’s Eve!

Art
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:33 AM   #118
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Boat love


For transgender boat owners...boat could be:
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:37 AM   #119
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At what cost $$$ wise? Now this is thread drift from the question of Bayliners, the most prolific builder of production yachts.

Thread drift only if you have not read the tread.

But PK, except for your and other broker's commissions, nobody is making a dime on selling Bayliner Yachts today. Six years ago when at a Seattle Boat show the new boat price of a large Meridian was way too close to that of the GBs and OAs thus the Bayliner/Meridian business model of the past faded in the target audience's mind.

Sure a 4588 or 4788 is a vessel to consider when shopping used in that market niche.
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:54 AM   #120
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This conversation reminds me of that. Nothing to do with if another vehicle will simply get the job done. Used the term "Elitist" to describe the situation... Cheers Mates
Interesting, now elitist Land Rover clubs have entered the tread.
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