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Old 01-06-2015, 10:40 AM   #261
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I think the answer to which boats are well built can be found in the market place, the wheat will be separated from the chafe.
As far as judging another boat owners boat I go by the "Boater's Golden Rule" that if you can't say any thing nice about someone's boat then don't say anything.
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Old 01-06-2015, 11:01 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by sunchaser;
God bless those who sooner or later sell their nice but now less expensive vessels to those of us who are not as affluent. [U
Why we are less affluent gets complicated but very deep down most of us know why. I sure do[/U].
Man, the truth sometimes hurts doesn't it? Those damn millionaires should be banned from the boat world and we'd all be better off.

I'm on my 8th boat since 1995. I bought all of them from guys who have a hell of a lot more wealth than I do and at big discounted prices. I just wish there were more of them that buy on impulse and then put a great boat on the market at super reduced prices.
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Old 01-06-2015, 11:24 AM   #263
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I'm with Codger2. God bless those with mega-bucks who buy big boats and sell them at a big discount so many of us with moderate bucks can afford to be boating. My iwfe and I are still stunned every now and agin when we realize we're the proud owners of a 50-foot yacht.

To stay on topic on this thread, here's to Bayliner for making boating more affordable for more people.
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:01 PM   #264
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There's a lot of cars on the road. The rich drive a Mercedes the less well off might drive a Toyota. I see plenty of Toyotas on the freeway. The Toyota owners arrive safely in a reliable, comfortable vehicle, albeit without some of the Mercedes frills, for a LOT less money! The Mercedes owner might disparage Toyotas but there's a lot of Toyotas on the road and for good reason!
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:35 PM   #265
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There's a lot of cars on the road. The rich drive a Mercedes the less well off might drive a Toyota. I see plenty of Toyotas on the freeway. The Toyota owners arrive safely in a reliable, comfortable vehicle, albeit without some of the Mercedes frills, for a LOT less money! The Mercedes owner might disparage Toyotas but there's a lot of Toyotas on the road and for good reason!
And on the average the Mercedes will absolutely give more trouble and require more maintenance than the Toyota.

I knew an architect years ago. Met him while boating. He had one typical Sea Ray runabout and was one of the few I'd see out over the winter. However, car wise he had a Mercedes love even though he was the first to admit they required frequent repairs. Including his kids there were five drivers in his family. He owned six Mercedes, said it required having a spare. Oh, and he owned a restored VW thing. Normally he just drove it occasionally to the lake but one day I saw him driving it in town. Why? Two Mercedes in the shop.

So seems a bit silly on the surface, except the Mercedes were all diesel and he got hundreds of thousands of miles, was able to pass his to his kids. And then when he did decide to see one occasionally, it was amazing how well the held value. He never professed to drive them for financial reasons but he actually had evidence that they cost him over their lifetime no more to drive than any other car would have. Now I have no idea if those numbers would still work. And he did average about 60,000 miles a year.

I can also say he would never have disparaged a Toyota. Far more likely to disparage his Mercedes. Once I heard him teasing his wife and he said, "a lot like you. A pain in the a.. sometimes and high maintenance, but I love them anyway." She smiled and said, "and that remark will cost you the new sofa I've been wanting".
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:49 PM   #266
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There's a lot of cars on the road. The rich drive a Mercedes the less well off might drive a Toyota. I see plenty of Toyotas on the freeway. The Toyota owners arrive safely in a reliable, comfortable vehicle, albeit without some of the Mercedes frills, for a LOT less money! The Mercedes owner might disparage Toyotas but there's a lot of Toyotas on the road and for good reason!
Very much related: When's the last time you heard anybody disparage a Hyundai or Kia? They hold their values way better than the Mercedes. BUT if your a single guy on the hunt, only one of the above is a certified panty dropper. I know many the guy that after they were caught by a trophy wife bought a Hyundai and gave the fancy car to the wife to drive.
Also similar drives the new yacht market. Why do you think all those big Sunseekers, Azimuths, Pershings, and all those $700k center console triple and quadruple ouboard powered boats are totally dominating the market? Nothing logical about it, but logic takes a backseat to desire and hormones to those who still have enough of the latter to have the former.
And btw, none of the mentioned "retired bayliner owners in Florida in muscle shirts" (1) are retired. The oldest in the photo at 68 has a 1 year old and 2 yro babies with his twenty something new wife. So he's not retiring anytime soon. Nor is he buying a newer bigger boat
anymore. The rest of us are between 43 and 62. We have a simple philosophy-"don't start no _ _ _ _, and there won't be no _ _ _ _".
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:09 PM   #267
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Nothing logical about it
There are many who would say there is nothing logical about boating at all. We each define our own logic.

There may be great logic in buying a center console powered with quad 7's, if the purpose is to pick up a bevy of girls. I can't say if it would work or not.

There is also a certain amount of logic to any purchase that brings one pleasure. You start restricting "logic" to only necessities and life changes tremendously.

What may be illogical for one may be quite logical for another even if the rest of us can't grasp the logic at all.
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:41 PM   #268
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I know I'm from the south but pretty sure I'm typing in English. Lol
I'm now going to go out in the woods and commune with the hogs.
Would that be southern english?
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Old 01-06-2015, 02:53 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Jim Gandee View Post
There's a lot of cars on the road. The rich drive a Mercedes the less well off might drive a Toyota. I see plenty of Toyotas on the freeway. The Toyota owners arrive safely in a reliable, comfortable vehicle, albeit without some of the Mercedes frills, for a LOT less money! The Mercedes owner might disparage Toyotas but there's a lot of Toyotas on the road and for good reason!

Yes for good reason. Now, altruism aside, the driving experience behind the wheel of a Panamera, Tesla or AMG 550 SEL is pretty nice in comparison to a Toyota. Even Toyota agrees, building cars that are fun to drive under a different badge.

BTW, the latest C&D really rakes the 2015 Tundra over the coals in a comparo to the big three.
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Old 01-06-2015, 04:01 PM   #270
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And on the average the Mercedes will absolutely give more trouble and require more maintenance than the Toyota.
.
I have had 5 Mercedes sedans in my life and have found the above to be true. Since I don't give a damn about status anymore, I drive a Toyota and my wife drives a Grand Cherokee. I get kidded quite often by my friends but then they know I really don't give a s--t about trying to impress anyone.
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Old 01-06-2015, 04:04 PM   #271
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:05 AM   #272
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The Mercedes owner might disparage Toyotas but there's a lot of Toyotas on the road and for good reason!
I believe that for the most part you get what you pay for. Boats, vehicles, outboard motors, toasters, you name it. Of course you have to do sufficient research to determine if the reality of the item you're buying is the same as the advertising, image, and hype.

A number of years ago we bought a new Range Rover. We still have it and to date it has been the most trouble free and reliable vehicle I have ever owned starting with my first one in the late 1960s. This includes makes like VW, Aston Martin, BMW, Toyota, Ford, Austin Healey and a few others. Recently the Range Rover has been joined by a Subaru and a Ford pickup, both of them purchased new. So far so good on the newcomers but they've got a long way to go to better the reliability of the Range Rover. We buy a vehicle to fill a certain requirement, and since we buy what we feel is the absolute best vehicle on the market to meet that requirement at the time, we tend to keep them for a long, long time. So we'll see how the newbies stack up...

A high quality boat, by which I mean the quality of its materials, construction, systems design, systems components and workmanship, tends to command a higher than average price because genuinely higher quality costs more to produce. Even if the boat is used, this higher cost compared to similar boats with similar histories of operation and care remains.

Which is why a (insert year here) Grand Banks or Hatteras or deFever or Tollycraft or Krogen almost invariably costs more than a similar size Bayliner of the same vintage. Often a lot more.

This is not to say that Bayliners are bad boats or that Bayliner owners automatically can't have as good a cruising experience as the owners of more expensive makes. It means that the more expensive boats are better boats in terms of their quality. Maybe not in every single aspect of quality: maybe Bayliner used a better motor than Brand A, or maybe their hull layup was a bit better than Brand B.

But overall, I believe you get what you pay for, assuming you approach the whole boat or vehicle or toaster-buying thing intelligently.
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Old 01-12-2015, 08:44 AM   #273
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Marin. Quality is often a perception. Also it's a single experience. And it's based on how a car or boat is maintained. Mercedes are expensive and known for requiring high maintenance. As to your Range Rover, well JD Power rates them among the best in performance and design. Among the best in powertrain quality. However, they give them average and below average in every other quality rating and below average in overall quality. This isn't arguing with your experience. Just stating people have different experiences.

Sometimes it's what one considers quality. For instance, in the boats you mentioned is quality the teak, the wood throughout or is it the low maintenance. Bayliner didn't go for teak. Well, neither does Hatteras. There are many very happy owners of Hyundai. Is it quality? Depends on how you judge. During it's first 80,000 to 100,000 miles it will cost less to maintain than a Mercedes or BMW. We have a couple of sports cars that we don't drive much but I venture to say if we drove them 20,000 miles a year they'd have their share of issues.

Ironically thinking just of Grand Banks. Some of the features that attract people and increase the price, which include the teak, the general finishing, the beauty, are the same features that often mean a lot of work on an older boat.

As you, I do believe quality costs, but I don't believe one necessarily gets it by paying a lot. I also believe in production methods contributing greatly to quality and that is where Bayliner excelled. As to Bayliner being cheaper for the same vintage being used as evidence it's poorer quality, I disagree. I think that is strictly evidence it cost considerably less initially and evidence it's out of production. The used pricing structure of any item is a combination of two factors. Original Selling Price and Depreciation. Depreciation is influence by many factors. Perceived quality in the market is one but except for vintage and antique items, being out of production is another.

If I'm going to judge quality, I must look at customer satisfaction. As shown in this thread, that is extremely high with Bayliner. Now, yes, it is judged based on expectations which are probably less than for a more expensive boat. But still it's a very strong element that can not be ignored.
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:49 AM   #274
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Most of the maintenance on Mercedes is preventive maintenance which is a hard concept for the average driver. Example: taking your Mercedes in for a 60,000 mile PM and getting a bill for several hundreds of dollars when the car was driving and operating perfectly. But the check discovered that the motor mounts say where wearing out.
I owned a 240D back in the day that while under going the 80K check the horn was found not to be working, it was replaced at no charge and packaged up to be sent to Mercedes engineers to find the fault because Mercedes said at that mileage it should have been working. Most if not all other mfg would toss it and charge you for a new horn. The concept of buying a car that built to last a lifetime is not the American way of car ownership.
The 240D was my one and only Mercedes, too slow, moved to a 1965 Porsche 356SC which I do wish I had kept for a lifetime.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:03 AM   #275
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Another way of looking at quality is "fit for purpose." If a boat (or any of its systems individually) fits the purpose and expectation you have for its use, it has quality in your mind.

For example, if you buy a boat with an "X" brand engine because you need or expect it to run 10,000 hours (assuming regular maintenance and no abuse) with no breakdowns, and it lasts that long without breakdowns, you would say the engine has good quality. If the engine brakes down sooner, you would probably say it has poor quality.

So, in this regard, quality is not absolute. It is relative to fit for purpose.

To declare any boat has poor quality without regard to a specific fit for purpose is meaningless.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:08 AM   #276
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HiDHo

I'm not anti Mercedes. Now you had a diesel which is very different than their gas models. We own a Mercedes SUV and have had no problems with it. Now we do have very few miles on it.

We've honestly had no problems though with any of our cars. Perhaps maintaining them well is why. Or just lucky.
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:01 AM   #277
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As you, I do believe quality costs, but I don't believe one necessarily gets it by paying a lot.
Amen! Although I believe Grand banks to be a good boat, I do not think it's a great boat. (IMO) Just because it costs more, doesn't mean that the quality is that much superior to a lot of other brands. Grand banks was among the first recreational trawlers offered to the public and its success was almost guaranteed. Like Xerox and copiers, it dominated the so called trawler market for years. It doesn't anymore.

For years, I was brain washed by competing marketing & dealer firms as to the inferior quality of the Bayliner 4588 & 4788. When I had the opportunity to actually cruise on one, I was amazed at the overall quality and performance of the boat. No, it's not a boat that status seekers buy but it is a boat that's extremely well made, that is affordable by a large majority of cruising couples & remains on the best seller list of brokerages throughout the country.
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:11 AM   #278
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Amen! Although I believe Grand banks to be a good boat, I do not think it's a great boat. (IMO) Just because it costs more, doesn't mean that the quality is that much superior to a lot of other brands. Grand banks was among the first recreational trawlers offered to the public and its success was almost guaranteed. Like Xerox and copiers, it dominated the so called trawler market for years. It doesn't anymore.

For years, I was brain washed by competing marketing & dealer firms as to the inferior quality of the Bayliner 4588 & 4788. When I had the opportunity to actually cruise on one, I was amazed at the overall quality and performance of the boat. No, it's not a boat that status seekers buy but it is a boat that's extremely well made, that is affordable by a large majority of cruising couples & remains on the best seller list of brokerages throughout the country.
Couldn't had said it any better myself!! This might mean I'm an " codger" too. Heck I was one (and ornery too!!) at 30! I sought out older people for wisdom and listened. Saved a lot of errors. More young people should give it a try vs. getting on Wikipedia and starting arguments.
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:20 AM   #279
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I posted this in another thread but in case the original poster didn't see it, FWIW....

We have met several couples over the years who have Bayliners and have done the Inside Passage up and back, some several times. I would venture to say there are a lot more Bayliner owners who have done the Passage than Nordhavn owners.

Bayliners suffer from a reputation that stems partly from their cheap, entry-level trailer boats. The other source of Bayliner myths has to do with owners, not the boats.

Bayliner very successfully figured out how to make boats that were priced less than many other production cruising boats of the same size and purpose. And when you price something lower than the competition, you tend to get more people buying it. People who couldn't afford a Grand Banks, for example, could afford a similar-size Bayliner.

So you had people getting into a relatively large cruising boat who perhaps didn't really have the interest in all the details of cruising that someone willing to plunk down the price of a Grand Banks had. They just wanted to get out on the water with their friends and families and have a rousing good time.

So the uninteresting (to them) things like the Colregs and the details of proper navigation and radio use and the effect of their wakes on other boats were not things they paid much attention to. To them, the boat was all about having a good time.

When you encounter boaters who are inconsiderate, uneducated in boat operations, unskilled, careless or all four you also notice the boat they are using. And when it seems there are a lot of these less-than-ideal boaters driving Bayliners, the annoyance one feels upon encountering them gets transferred to the boat make. So..... Bayliners must be crappy boats because they are always driven by crappy boaters, right?

Sure, Bayliner was able to price their boats very competitively by using not the most expensive hardware and using production techniques more tailored to assembly-line production than those used by Grand Banks or Fleming or Krogen.

But the fact remains that in the hands of a competent, courteous boater, a Bayliner cruiser is no less effective at providing great value and experiences to its owner than a Grand Banks, Fleming, or Nordhavn.

Forced into a choice, I would take a well-looked after Bayliner cruiser over a similar size, older Taiwan trawler like a CHB with uncertain care and even more uncertain construction quality, knowing what I know about the manufacturing processes used in Taiwan in the 70s and 80s.
Well said friend...

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Old 02-24-2015, 06:04 AM   #280
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Thanks to everyone who responded. This spring we will be returning to the PNW and we will be actively shopping for a Bayliner 4588.
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