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Old 01-04-2015, 01:13 PM   #221
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People make choices. For those of us who choose not to live in FL and deal with those "issues" (and more) there are other reasons than dock space that boat designs come and go. Easy money is a biggie. Just the same as the housing market has taken a dive due to overbuilding and loans getting tighter, so has the boating business.

The fact you are a boat broker gives you certain insights, but there is a bigger picture at play here. And it is, how does one generate sufficient disposable income to buy toys that fit our tastes? Look at how many people today lift the hoods of their cars or even wash them in their own driveway?
Of fix a toilet or pull weeds? In a non hands on and service oriented society boats are just not only expensive but too much work for those who do not grow up as tinkerers.

Boating and enjoying a 35 to 60 footer requires some real hands on work and getting one's fingernails dirty. That group is shrinking quickly, getting old and dying off. Look no further than all these marvelous vessels for sale that don't even crack 50 hours per year.

So wish all you want for a return to the good old days, there are not enough good old retired rich boys around to buy bigger toy boats. Look no further, for the future, than Cutwater and the smaller NTs, ATs and "Aluminum Craft" with lower op costs and lots of dock space available. And strong new and used sales for the few well heeled that can afford a Nordhavn or Dashew.


Yes things are different, but it is called demographics.
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Old 01-04-2015, 03:56 PM   #222
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But Tom,
There's lots of 30' slips available in LaConner but nothing bigger.
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Old 01-04-2015, 04:09 PM   #223
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But Tom,
There's lots of 30' slips available in LaConner but nothing bigger.
A 30' slip is just perfect for a Cutwater, but why slip it when you can dry storage it? Look at all the vessels on the hard in Anacortes, big ones too. A few months ago we checked in Anacortes, several 50' slips available at that time.

R Cook has a great trailer boat that does AK just fine for him. Point being, the market moves to where those who love the water and cruising lifestyle can always find a way.
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Old 01-04-2015, 06:16 PM   #224
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Yes Tom that's exactly why there's 30' slips available. Thought about that after I posted ..... should'a came back and fixed the post .. my bad

Well the market better not move up to higher prices yet .... Or I'll be out'a here!
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:44 PM   #225
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I would like to meet one of these "professionals" who make 2 to 3 large a year and are buying these boats brand new. Something tells me that they more than likely are living in too large a home and drive brand new cars as well. I'd like to see a monthly checking statement because I highly doubt someone making this level of coin knows better than to buy something brand new that depreciates immediately on top of making mortgage and car payments.
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:52 PM   #226
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Linda and I returned from relaxing days aboard our Tolly. This eve I read pages to catch up on this thread. We don’t go to our boat to play computer… We go to play boat!

Wow – Lots of in-depth input here since I last visited. I like this thread. And, yes it has shifted off original topic, but, said drift has basically followed the course it should at this stage of the residential marine marketing game (concerning 32’ to 65’ pleasure boats, that is).

I’m not going to add my feelings/conjectures regarding the how or why so many sectors of the pleasure boating market are in trouble or decline. Many fine posts have covered much already.

I am going to ask:

What do your think it would do for a manufacturer’s cost structure (i.e. the actual retail-dealer-price that could be offered to purchasers) if boat hull could be manufactured at up to one-half cost, with super strength and durability, a same or lighter weight than others; and, up to three times as quick start to finish?

I am an entrepreneur, designer, inventor. I have a procedure I believe can attain what I mention above.

That said: Just because the hull cost and processing speed could be significantly improved I’m not sure that factor would be enough to make New Boats affordable to the average professional person.

IMO, substantially improved levels of retail affordability to the general public is the only portion of this boat marketing game that could blow-life back into New Boat sales.

Looking forward to input from boat building professionals.

PS: This would be proprietary manufacturing process with trade secret materials. In addition to hull there are other boat portions that could be fabricated using same procedure.

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Old 01-04-2015, 10:54 PM   #227
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I would like to meet one of these "professionals" who make 2 to 3 large a year and are buying these boats brand new. Something tells me that they more than likely are living in too large a home and drive brand new cars as well. I'd like to see a monthly checking statement because I highly doubt someone making this level of coin knows better than to buy something brand new that depreciates immediately on top of making mortgage and car payments.
Someone is or actually was buying them. Lots of Bayliner 4788's out there.

You have to think of the demographics to rationalize a boat buyer with a $500K budget. Remember most large boats are financed.

My guess is...

Probably early to mid 50's in age.

Probably either no mortgage or a old mortgage close to being paid off and representing the price of homes 20 years ago.

Probably empty nester

Probably never had to start over due to divorce.

By the time someones in their 50's their probably at the director of VP level at their work. At the top of their game career wise. This is their time of life for disposable income.

Probably not a tinkerer any more due to career choices and moving up the ladder, so buying a new boat with no problems sounds appealing.

All this makes for the perfect, in my opinion $500,000 new boat buyer.

10-20% down, payments over 15 years on a new boat loan. Yes the cost is high, but its the time of life they can afford it.

Yep, if I were making $500K boats that's the guy I'd be targeting with my advertising. I'd appeal to his sense of "if not now when?" and "you've earned it".
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:32 PM   #228
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I've had exactly two (2) deals that had financing in the past ten years and I don't sell boats under $100k. 100% of the exported boats were cash, and many were bought sight unseen (buyers didn't bother to personally come see them before they bought, and that includes Americans only a short plane ride away) in the $160k-$800k range.
In my experience there's no shortage of, wealth out there-worldwide. Money isn't the issue. Where to keep the "stuff" (art, cars, horses, planes, boats) remains the issue.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:59 PM   #229
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Someone is or actually was buying them. Lots of Bayliner 4788's out there.

You have to think of the demographics to rationalize a boat buyer with a $500K budget. Remember most large boats are financed.

My guess is...

Probably early to mid 50's in age.

Probably either no mortgage or a old mortgage close to being paid off and representing the price of homes 20 years ago.

Probably empty nester

Probably never had to start over due to divorce.

By the time someones in their 50's their probably at the director of VP level at their work. At the top of their game career wise. This is their time of life for disposable income.

Probably not a tinkerer any more due to career choices and moving up the ladder, so buying a new boat with no problems sounds appealing.

All this makes for the perfect, in my opinion $500,000 new boat buyer.

10-20% down, payments over 15 years on a new boat loan. Yes the cost is high, but its the time of life they can afford it.

Yep, if I were making $500K boats that's the guy I'd be targeting with my advertising. I'd appeal to his sense of "if not now when?" and "you've earned it".
This is what I was picturing and not a dude with a fresh family making a quarter a year paying off his sporty SUV in his culdesac home.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:03 AM   #230
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Art,
I don't know but I'm afraid the hull is only a small part of the build.

Would the new material be moulded like FG or made w panels put together?
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:24 AM   #231
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I would venture to guess ... hull/deck structure 30%, installations and rigging 25%, interior and finish 25%, powertrain 20%. The hull/deck structure could be more than 30% ... not only the heft and quality of materials and the methodology used can vary a lot but the hull/deck production cost goes up proportionally to the boat's LOA (volume).

All other components are "standard" marine stuff not dependent as much, if at all, on the boat's size variations within the same class.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:26 AM   #232
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I`m thinking some wealthy people go and order exactly what they think they want/need, understanding but not caring about the depreciation.("Dropped 300K on that boat, so what, I can afford it, I`m rich")
At the same time, smarter well off people are cherry picking the resales and doing very nicely.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:45 AM   #233
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Art,
I don't know but I'm afraid the hull is only a small part of the build.

Would the new material be moulded like FG or made w panels put together?
Hi Eric, thanks for response.

I figure deck and some superstructure portions could also be manufactured in same basic procedure/material. Hull could come out in one solid piece. Many portions manufactured in same way/material could be one piece.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:49 AM   #234
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I would venture to guess ... hull/deck structure 30%, installations and rigging 25%, interior and finish 25%, powertrain 20%. The hull/deck structure could be more than 30% ... the heft and quality of materials and the methodology used can vary significantly, all other components are "standard" marine stuff.
Thanks, Richard Be interesting to learn if those %ages are average. I have no clue of new boat building % cost in 2015.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:55 AM   #235
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My brother is in Kevin's demographic. Annual income jives with an almost empty nest, we discussed boat ownership at Christmas. He figures why buy when he can charter much cheaper. They chartered a 70'er for a week the last two summers and enjoyed it, cruised the islands without the burden of running or maintaining the boat. They are discussing chartering a boat in the Med next.

The bulk of the rest of his recreation time is filled with driving his '66 Mustang to the golf course.
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Old 01-05-2015, 01:15 AM   #236
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This is what I was picturing and not a dude with a fresh family making a quarter a year paying off his sporty SUV in his culdesac home.
Yes, you are entirely correct!

Young people have significantly more cash outlay than older people in general.

I call it the acquisition phase of life.

Older people generally have more disposable income, partly because they are making more, and partly because they already have "stuff", where young people are still buying "stuff"
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Old 01-05-2015, 01:25 AM   #237
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Two years ago I purchased a 1989 Bayliner 3888. I have done most of the maintenance and have crawled around just about every inch of the boat. My assessment is as follows:

- The boat seems fairly well made and I am confident it will handle rougher seas than I wish to tackle.
- The fit and finish is middle of the road and indicative of a mass produced vessel. Examples are some of the interior teak mouldings don't align just perfectly or the angles don't match exactly.
- The drain in the bow anchor locker is not in the low corner so the water never completely drains.
- The routing of some hoses and drain lines are just stuffed through access areas without regard to chafing. Same with some wiring.
- The boat has economically provided my family with many hours of cruising enjoyment.
- I equate my Bayliner with Chevrolet. It's the working mans boat. It's nice and does what you need it to do. It's not a Hatteras but it doesn't have the Hat price tag.
- The interior layout and use of space is darn tough to beat!
- The boat is very comfortable and has classic lines.

It's been a very good boat. It's a coastal cruiser. It's not meant to cross expansive oceans. Used within it's designed parameters it's extremely capable.
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Old 01-05-2015, 01:52 AM   #238
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I`m thinking some wealthy people go and order exactly what they think they want/need, understanding but not caring about the depreciation.("Dropped 300K on that boat, so what, I can afford it, I`m rich")
At the same time, smarter well off people are cherry picking the resales and doing very nicely.
This isn't aimed at just you but your post is an example so I'll use it. There's a common thread that some of us who choose to go a different route that you or others are not as smart or have an attitude that says, "so what, I'm rich." Just because our choices aren't yours or because you disagree with our choices doesn't make them dumb choices nor does it make us people who don't care about how they spend their money.

Yes, we buy new. We buy new cars and maintain them well and keep them longer than the average car buyer. We buy new boats but we use ours very heavily and put on an exceptionally large number of hours. We also keep our boats for years.

Skinny made similar statements implying "our" home was too large and somehow it was wrong to drive new cars then wanting to see checking statements because of doubt that someone knows better than to buy new on top of mortgage and car payments.

We don't discuss what we spend on boats not do we choose to criticize the choices of any of you. We're also not the only ones here who buy new and know some here who have saved and planned and finally purchased new and then somehow it seems there's a mood they should apologize for it.

If you believe buying new to be wrong for you or generally a poor financial decision that's fine. But snide or demeaning remarks about those who do isn't necessary or appropriate.
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Old 01-05-2015, 06:24 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Someone is or actually was buying them. Lots of Bayliner 4788's out there.

You have to think of the demographics to rationalize a boat buyer with a $500K budget. Remember most large boats are financed.

My guess is...

Probably early to mid 50's in age.

Probably either no mortgage or a old mortgage close to being paid off and representing the price of homes 20 years ago.

Probably empty nester

Probably never had to start over due to divorce.

By the time someones in their 50's their probably at the director of VP level at their work. At the top of their game career wise. This is their time of life for disposable income.

Probably not a tinkerer any more due to career choices and moving up the ladder, so buying a new boat with no problems sounds appealing.

All this makes for the perfect, in my opinion $500,000 new boat buyer.

10-20% down, payments over 15 years on a new boat loan. Yes the cost is high, but its the time of life they can afford it.

Yep, if I were making $500K boats that's the guy I'd be targeting with my advertising. I'd appeal to his sense of "if not now when?" and "you've earned it".
Wall Street banker types spending their year end bonuses.
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Old 01-05-2015, 07:02 AM   #240
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>all other components are "standard" marine stuff.<

That covers a lot of ground , a maceriator could be a Galley Maid or Obendorfer ay a grand a pop, or Jabsco for $100.

Big difference in living with and servicing the different tho >standard < mechanicals.
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