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Old 01-03-2015, 09:23 PM   #201
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Larry--- That's very good looking boat. I mean, very good looking. Were we in the market for a new cruising boat and one that looked like that was available, assuming all the other important aspects were up to snuff--- two engines of a good make, construction quality, interior configuration, etc.--- we'd buy it.

You should patten that exterior design and then sell it to somebody.

I'm impressed.
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:46 PM   #202
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Larry--- That's very good looking boat. I mean, very good looking. --- we'd buy it.
When my Admiral and I left Key Biscayne in 2007 for a three-year posting in Berlin, I gave my 2452 to the local Bayliner guy in Ft. Lauderdale, and told him when we got back, we'd be buying the Bayliner of our dreams. I thought it would be something like this, but.....well, you know what happened in 2007. I know it's not as practical as a 4788, but it's close, and it has class.
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:59 PM   #203
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Larry

Some covered side decks would be nice too. And a bigger aft sliding door so it parties as well as a Navigator.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:01 PM   #204
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You might recall this Photoshopped Bayliner 4788 LRC I imagined last year. ...

Love it ... ... where can I get it?
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:03 PM   #205
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Heel hustler: back in 09 I sold a 4788 to a fellow from the Ukraine who was planning to take it back there and use it as a pattern to build them in Aluminum at a old Russian Military boatyard that had a huge supply of Aluminum in stock with pod drives yet, which we figured we could sell landed here in Florida for $350k. He even brought a beautiful finished 65'er here to show off their skills. . I did a survey on the Bayliner Owners Club website for feedback and suggestions of which we were going to apply. The master was going to be full width like Navigators, and since the engines would be under the cockpit, we had all that space under the salon to use as additional cabin space and storage. We had a winner!!
One flaw...he had a short fuse and chain smoked. His face would turn red at restaurants if the waiter was too slow. I kept telling him " take it easy man, your going to have a heart attack". Well, as Paul Harvey would say "now you know the rest of the story".
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Old 01-03-2015, 11:05 PM   #206
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If I was going into the boat building business, which I'm definitely not.

First, I don't believe the consumer has deserted the 40-60' range to the degree it appears. I think the economic crisis certainly hit this range hard. But before Brunswick pulled the plug, Bayliner was still selling well. The problem was it wasn't selling for as much as they wanted. A Brunswick operation couldn't make a profit at the sales prices that Bayliner was able to. Very different organization.

The other builders have largely dressed boats in that range up so they've priced them out of the market. Plus they then have decided to turn the production over to larger boats. A prime example is Grand Banks. Another example of deserting a very well selling boat for larger is Westport dropping the 65' Pacific Mariner which had sold over 200 units.

Sea Ray had horrible years with the Sundancer's but they've recovered. A lot of purchasers of them would rather have a bridge and more utilitarian boat but it's not available in the size and price range they want.

So here is my line. An updated but similarly constructed and equipped version of Bayliner with a Pacific Mariner type thrown in at the top. So a 65', a 58, 53, 48 a 43 and a 36. No teak or other aesthetic only amenities to price it out of the range of it's customer. All with twin engines and a cruising speed of 20 knots. Then at least the 48, 43 and 36 also with single engines, low horsepower, designed with top speed of 12 knots, cruise of 8-9. Now, not beefed up or made more trawler like. Same weight and construction characteristics. Just lower price, less speed, more economical. For those who feel strongly in favor of single engines. If I could maintain cost and price, I might go with pods for the twins. Even more economical.

Each boat would have a standard set of engines or engine, no options. They would have a standard set of equipment, but would be well equipped. And if you wanted a chance you would have to start some builds to spec and have them sitting on dealer's lots ready to go.

I believe the concepts that worked before would still work. One just can't compromise them. I think there is a huge void in the market place in that size range. Grand Banks is way overbuilt for that customer. Meridian is overpriced for what it is and continues shrinking. The various tugs are great boats but for a different customer. The style and size of the old Bayliners sure still attracts used buyers.

So, that's my little dream. Oh and it has to be done with money, real money. Not borrowed money and not on a shoestring.
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:27 AM   #207
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I just noticed (because its the first time I've looked since 09) that the website for the Ukrainian company who was going to build these in aluminum is still active although obviously dated.. . They had the right idea, and the right credentials, and they had that scary (I met the money man one time) Russian money that was flowing through south Florida not long ago. http://conquestyachts.com
I guess they don't have the same warnings on the packs of Russian cigarettes.
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:25 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
First, I don't believe the consumer has deserted the 40-60' range to the degree it appears. .
The market is currently saturated with quality builders in this size range. Let me list a few slowpokes:
  • Nordhavn
  • Selene
  • Nordic Tug
  • American Tug
  • DeFever
  • Cutwater is moving in
  • Fathom
  • Outer Reef
  • Garcia
And a few fast pokes:
  • Devlin
  • Cruisers
  • Searay
  • Beneteau
  • Horizon
  • Coastal Craft
  • Carver
  • All the downeast designs
  • GB
  • Mainship/Marlow
I have left out dozens more. For a new builder to enter the already crowded 50 foot range seems fraught with grief. Especially a US builder with the dollar climbing.
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:37 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
The market is currently saturated with quality builders in this size range. Let me list a few slowpokes:
  • Nordhavn
  • Selene
  • Nordic Tug
  • American Tug
  • DeFever
  • Cutwater is moving in
  • Fathom
  • Outer Reef
  • Garcia
And a few fast pokes:
  • Devlin
  • Cruisers
  • Searay
  • Beneteau
  • Horizon
  • Coastal Craft
  • Carver
  • All the downeast designs
  • GB
  • Mainship/Marlow
I have left out dozens more. For a new builder to enter the already crowded 50 foot range seems fraught with grief. Especially a US builder with the dollar climbing.
Interesting...

Now apply a price cap for a well equipped 48' boat at say $500,000 in today's dollars for a new boat.

Now who is still in the market?

Thats the market that Bayliner operated in.

Thats the market that a "typical" professional could afford to take part in.

In my opinion there are allot more people that can and would pay a half million for a new boat than say a million.

Before anybody says "a half million isn't a lot for a boat" consider that a half million represents the outer edge of affordability for almost all hard working professionals earning a salary. Go up in price and you pretty much limit sales to entrepreneurs. For every successful entrepreneur there are hundreds or thousands of very successful salaried professionals out there.

In my opinion thats what is lacking from the marketplace...

A 40-50' boat that a successful salaried professional can afford. People with a household income of $2-300,000 a year.
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:50 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
The market is currently saturated with quality builders in this size range. Let me list a few slowpokes:
  • Nordhavn
  • Selene
  • Nordic Tug
  • American Tug
  • DeFever
  • Cutwater is moving in
  • Fathom
  • Outer Reef
  • Garcia
And a few fast pokes:
  • Devlin
  • Cruisers
  • Searay
  • Beneteau
  • Horizon
  • Coastal Craft
  • Carver
  • All the downeast designs
  • GB
  • Mainship/Marlow
I have left out dozens more. For a new builder to enter the already crowded 50 foot range seems fraught with grief. Especially a US builder with the dollar climbing.
Ok, first let's eliminate the slowpokes and just focus on faster. Carver no longer has boats in this range due to considerable reduction of the line. Searay doesn't have this style, leaving the sedans to the failed Meridian. Cruisers has no flybridges. Horizon is larger yachts. Downeast isn't the type design we're talking about. Coastal Craft is a boat I absolutely love, but aluminum. Grand Banks is overbuilt for this market, again a very nice boat, but priced considerably out of the range I'm speaking. Marlow attempts to be a Grand Banks, but is primarily larger as well. The one 49 I saw introduced but am not aware of any builds. Frankly aware of very few Marlow builds the last couple of years. Mainship has only two boats, both trawlers smaller than I'm discussing.

As to the dollar climbing, the boat can be built and delivered in the US at a cost less than say Grand Banks Malaysian costs.
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:55 AM   #211
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Interesting...

Now apply a price cap for a well equipped 48' boat at say $500,000 in today's dollars for a new boat.
I think in today's dollars you're not going to hit the $500,000 for a 48'. However, something in the range of $700,000 is quite possible.
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Old 01-04-2015, 10:12 AM   #212
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In my opinion there are allot more people that can and would pay a half million for a new boat than say a million.
I would too, point me to that builder. The last Meridian 4788s in today's dollars were out the door for what, about $1M?

Two years ago I made a trip to the AT factory. Based upon what I saw there is no way significant dollars could be chopped from that build process. Their 45' or so build price today is pushing the upper $100K range. If any less quality the vessel would not sell.

For the 1% ers quality and aura sell - new. With but rare exception it has always been this way. Today even more so as the world economy has tightened up. Some buy a new OA 80+' yacht and a Riva with triples because they like quality and aura.

In the 60' range, the price for quality is not all that much more than a low cost build, at least if you compare a Searay to say an Eastbay or Coastal Craft.

On a new build don't forget to include dinghy, davit, instruments, genset, thrusters, stabilizers, AC, diesel heat, canvas, anchor and flag and you've added a whole lot of money - pushing $200K. Time for a very big pay raise.
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Old 01-04-2015, 10:27 AM   #213
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You might recall this Photoshopped Bayliner 4788 LRC I imagined last year. Truth is, I was thinking that Bayliner, seeing the number of Boomers retiring, would have eventually hopped on the band-wagon with their own affordable trawer-style offering, using a tried and true hull with some minor styling, interior and tankage mods. .I doubt it was ever on anyone's sketch board and even if it was, it would have been in the trash can by the end of 2007. I hate it that the big Bayliners are history, but I would have loved to see such a boat from Bay.

Larry m man that boat is wonderful. Screw the side decks and the big money talk. She's great just like that. I'd want to see her w a slightly turned up bottom aft so she really is a SD and not some planing hull w the SD label. You made her perfect. Tell the naysayers to go design their own boat. Yours is perfect!
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Old 01-04-2015, 10:55 AM   #214
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Ok, first let's eliminate the slowpokes and just focus on faster. Carver no longer has boats in this range due to considerable reduction of the line. .
What is the matter with Al, lots of great boats built this way.

OK, in the fast poke 50 range lets just add:
  • Prestige
  • Endurance
  • Horizon PC 52
  • Outer Reef Trident
  • Sabre (with a fly bridge)
  • Offshore
  • Dyna
  • Norstar
  • Nordhavn CP
  • Explorer
  • Princess
  • Marlow
  • Marquis
  • Riviera
  • ETC
To re-enter the narrow window for a fast poke pilot house design of build quality like a mid nineties Bayliner would take a very brave group. A tour and ride in a 50' ish Riviera, Offshore or Sabre would tell you why.

For those wanting this Bayliner style, do exactly what Kevin did, buy a nice one and repower/refit and all in you'd have your $500 to 700K vessel! Dozens of them are for sale in the PNW and making brokers like PK very happy.
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Old 01-04-2015, 10:59 AM   #215
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Larry m man that boat is wonderful. Screw the side decks and the big money talk. She's great just like that. I'd want to see her w a slightly turned up bottom aft so she really is a SD and not some planing hull w the SD label. You made her perfect. Tell the naysayers to go design their own boat. Yours is perfect!

Good one Eric, especially the turned up aft.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:30 AM   #216
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I like the way this thread has (slightly) drifted. We were fortunate to find our boat in a distress-sale situation from a wealthy seller going through a divorce. Our 4788 had had four prior owners and there was a fair amount of repair work needed. Half was fixing things that were broken (bad alternator, failed oil sender unit, that kind of thing) and the other half was correcting incorrect installations of new electronics (GPS not connected to new VHF so DSC did not work, nav light removed and not reinstalled, silly stuff). We added rear cockpit canvas, diesel heat and removed the bowsprit to reduce LOA to 50 feet. Replaced all batteries and changed all fluids.

All-in, with hired out work for what I don't know how to do, we are still under two hundred grand for a wonderful yacht. I just checked yachtworld and there are about forty 4788s for sale all around the country. About half are under two hundred grand, most in decent shape. Many with under 1500 hours on Cummins diesels.

One of my trusted mechanics is a former Bayliner shop worker/foreman and he told me Bayliner had their own custom wiring looms for each boat while other companies sourced that work out to small shops. Bays have wiring runs that can hard to work on (my biggest pet peeve is the 12-volt wiring with runs for neutral and hot to different places and thus hard to convert to LED with dimming) but they benefit from not using custom connectors made by shops that are now out of business.

I have crawled all around my boat and have assisted others with work on their boats and I think it is safe to say that all boats have issues, since all boats are compromises, and the 4788 is no better or worse than any other production boats out there. We run at nine knots about 90% of the time, so I feel like a trawler owner. 😉
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:10 PM   #217
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Sunchaser and Band B you have defined the root of the problem for new boat buyers and manufacturers alike.

New 48' boats are for the most part out of the price range of salary earning professionals.

What is different now than when Bayliner was profitable making for example its 4788 model?

Persoanlly I think it is that the price of a new build rose faster than salaries during the last fifteen years for one. I think another factor is that there is a large number of pre-owned boats that are attracting potential buyers.
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:11 PM   #218
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You guys discussing who should make what and at what price points are decades behind the curve as us in the boat biz hashed this to death a long time ago. Tens of thousands of boat dealerships and Yacht Brokerages went out of business seemingly non stop since I entered it in 1974.
THE number one issue has been "How do you sell boats to people if there's nowhere to keep them?" This really hit home in the 2000s with the real estate boom, when developers started buying up all the waterfront they could get their hands on ALL across the US with the idea of building condos and selling the slips. They did a pretty good job of ripping out the docks and pilings before they went bust in the 'great recession' leaving unfinished projects in their wakes. Displaced all the boats. Those
marinas left in business raised their rates in the normal supply and demand. Raised them to levels not acceptable to 99% of boat owners-who called up the brokers left in business to sell them. A good 90% of my sales came from outside the United States, and those boats are gone forever.
Every location in Miami where I had my offices are either flat gone, or are now condos with rates literally ten times what I used to pay.
I've had quotes of $1800.00 a month to dock a Bayliner 4788 down there and they wanted proof of insurance($$$), which is just one reason I recently moved north of Ft . Pierce where dockage is still available, and not yet insanely priced. Not yet. .
LONG time ago we realized that if one must own waterfront property to even have a place to dock a big boat, then said owners of both will soon realize they don't need a big yacht and a house, so they sell the big boats and buy center console outboard powered boats that go fast which allows
them to run to the Bahamas or the Keys and come home the same day. That market has skyrocketed.

If that All Aboard Florida scheme comes to fruition, then Ft. Lauderdale, Jupiter, Stuart, and all marine businesses west of the tracks and along the Cross Florida route will also effectively be killed off, as you can't dock or repair a boat if the boats are blocked from your home or business. Then the rates of the marinas oceanside of the tracks will skyrocked in the same supply and demand scenario that occured in Miami.


Many of my friends owned those now extinct dealerships, and trust me-they would had loved to stay in business. IF dealerships can't stay in business, the manufacturers of the boats they sold can't stay in business!! So now they're all gone too. Many you think are still in business -aren't. Nothing but websites.
The only reason I've survived is the advent of the Internet, International sales , keeping a low overhead , always owning my property free and clear, carrying zero debt.
Driving around the US I can point out exactly where there used to be boat builders ,marinas, dealerships and Brokerages in the exact way I can point out what Indian tribes once lived where.
You South Florida boaters (and home owners) need to crush All Aboard Florida before it crushes you! Those bridges only have a 4' clearance closed, and they plan to kep them closed in daylight hours!
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:13 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
When my Admiral and I left Key Biscayne in 2007 for a three-year posting in Berlin, I gave my 2452 to the local Bayliner guy in Ft. Lauderdale, and told him when we got back, we'd be buying the Bayliner of our dreams. I thought it would be something like this, but.....well, you know what happened in 2007. I know it's not as practical as a 4788, but it's close, and it has class.
Well, what can I say? I've been gone for over a year (but lurking) and have missed answering posts such as this one, from Larry.

Larry: You should have been a yacht designer! Your redo of the big Bayliner (one of my favorites) is terrific! I really enjoy your posts.
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Old 01-04-2015, 01:08 PM   #220
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SEAHORSE! Geeze, where have you been? Welcome home!

I tend to get overwhelmed with adding all the stuff I'd like on a re-do. Yep, like Sunchaser, the covered decks and like Eric, the genuine FD hull with a sumptuous buttock line, but I wanted to stay focused on what I thought Bayliner "might" do. Given that the greater number of Trawler style boats being sold were semi-displacement and they already had a darned good line of proven SD hulls, you know they're not going to build a new hull. Install a single with a full keel and skeg? Probably not. The whole re-do is what I thought Bayliner might invest in. The red outline on the version below is the standard 4788 profile. The interior space, weight distribution, etc. are still very close to the original. BTW,...it's pretty easy plopping down a Photoshopped re-do of a production boat, but none of this dreaming includes plumbing, wire chases, and zillions of subtle issues that come up for the Architect. When I consider the interior, it makes me appreciate the work they do infinitely more.

Yep, I think this dream is going to be up to guys like Keven, Dave, Robster, or maybe even PK to make happen.
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