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Old 01-02-2015, 09:03 PM   #181
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Wide, 360-degree decks, ..... and views from the pilothouse
While we did not draw up a list of requirements for a cruising boat since we'd chartered so knew pretty much what we wanted, we did know that a full walk-around main deck that we could actually walk around was an absolute must. Particularly up here.

As I've mentioned before, we didn't care at the time if the boat was a single or a twin. It came both ways and either one was fine with us, although our view on this has since changed.

And while we don't have a pilothouse per se (although we both feel a pilothouse boat is the absolute best configuration for a crusing boat no exceptions), we both really like the great visibility from our main cabin/helm station. Considering the environment we boat it, having small windows or restricted visibility would be a real bummer.

It's the main reason my wife nixed a sailboat when we started talking about getting into cruising. She likes sailboats, but didn't like the thought of living in a hole with just slits for windows when there is so much cool stuff around the boat all the time.

Including otters.

I think Mark did a great job of selecting a boat that fits his needs and requirements. The single-engine aspect would rule out that design for us, but everything else about it makes it an ideal boat for these waters. I don't like wannabe windows but if the Coot had two or three engines the pilothouse windows are something I could certainly put up with. And if I bought a new one I'm sure the manufacturer would put vertical or aft-raked windows on it if requested.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:08 PM   #182
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I am headed to Florida as I type this, to look at a couple of Bayliner 4788's, in Crystal River and Miami. (I am also going to get a free cup of Cuban coffee from Parks).
Careful with that Cuban Coffee with Parks. Last one I had in Parks' store made me feel like I needed an Aqua Drive to stop shaking!
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:17 PM   #183
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It finally reached the point where the smaller GB programs simply had no hope of being profitable anymore.

The first one they killed off was the GB32.

GB 32 is a beautiful boat and on the short list for a future boat for us. Every time I hear folks discuss resurrecting the smaller GB's it brings a smile to my face. 2 years ago a gentleman was selling a 2 year old Selene 37' I believe for north of $500K (far FAR below new replacement value) and there must have been 40 posts about how nobody in their right mind would pay anywhere near that for a boat that size. No wonder GB, Nordhavn and other marquis ignore the sub 40' market. I believe Selene has since discontinued the model too.

Bottom line, if nobody buys them new the majority of us on this forum will never be able to purchase them used 10-20 years from now. Fortunately there are enough Bayliners and Carvers out there to keep our kids stocked with 20-40 year old boats when they can afford the hobby.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:13 PM   #184
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GB 32 is a beautiful boat and on the short list for a future boat for us.
I'm not as much of a fan of the GB32 as a lot of GB enthusiasts are. I guess for a cruising couple it's fine. But we have found that the aft cabin on the GB36 Classic opens up so many options for only being four feet longer.

When we are by ourselves, the forecabin is a storeroom/shop. Having two independent heads and holding tanks on the boat removes the worry of what hapens if a toilet craps out (sorry).

But where the GB36 Classic (aka tri-cabin) really shines is when one has guests or kids. A 36 foot boat is not all that big, but having three cabins makes it seem larger than it is. We have done several two and three week cruises with another couple on board, and it's great that each couple has their own stateroom and head with the neutral territory of the main cabin in between. Someone can get up in the morning, go up in the main cabin and make cofee or read or watch the otters playing or go for a walk and not disturb the couple in the other stateroom.

Or if someone decides to go to bed before everyone else, he or she simply disappears into their stateroom and the rest of the folks can carry on with what they're doing.

The GB32 forces one to make up a berth every night in the main cabin for guests or kids. It's not an epic to do this, of course, but when I've been on a GB32 I've always felt sort of jammed together with the other people on the boat.

So even though there are normally just the two of us on board plus dog, I am very grateful we went directly to the tri-cabin GB36 instead of the GB32.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:21 PM   #185
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...But where the GB36 Classic (aka tri-cabin) really shines is when one has guests or kids. ...
As if having someone's elses children overnight is someone's idea of fun.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:34 PM   #186
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A big builder making small boats has the baggage of all the extra infrastructure that needs to be maintained for the larger boats. But it's all relative. Open a shop to build the GP 32 exclusivly and building to the bottom line should be more or less easily done. When AM started building the 32 they may have considered it a large boat. So for 32' boats in the near future look to builders of 25 and 28' boats. Builders the size of Ranger could probably do a 32' boat efficiently.

Regarding what I said about boat buyers designing boats it seemed quite obvious to me. Marin of course knows me well and understood for that reason. Tail fins didn't appear on cars because engineers thought they would make better cars. Cadillac did it in 48 and it took off. Not an advance of any kind but people liked them so evolution of the Cadilic went fwd. Eventially it was seen as silly and marketing forces changed the design again. Boats of the 50s didn't have flying bridges but they did in the 60s. Consumers approved and they are still with us.
Engineers decide other things like the location of equipment in a boat, what kind of glass to use, fuel tanks and many other things. So the purchasing agents and engineers may sort of overlap at times but PAs don't design hulls. That's for naval architects as is weight and balance ect. But the consumer even has a say in that too. There is the deadrise V/S performance, seaworthyness and a smooth ride in a chop or even the nasty. Women largely dictate the freeboard of pleasure boats ... don't want to get too close to the water. A low freeboard makes much more sense but you rarely see it .... except on a troller, gillnetter or lobsterboat.

But most of the designing of a pleasure boat is done by the boat buyers dollar.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:44 PM   #187
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As if having someone's elses children overnight is someone's idea of fun.
I meant one's own kids as well as guest's kids.

We don't allow children under the age of 15 on our boat because any younger than that and they carry every germ and virus known to live on the planet. But since none of the people we have on the boat as guests have children at home anymore kids are not a problem for us.

But some people are saddled with them, so the tri-cabin is a great configuration to have because the kids can literally be sent to their room.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:45 PM   #188
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I loved my GB32, my first boat. I became an "expert" on them (sorry) and had to sell mine coz life got in the way. I didn't replace it because I'd done decks, done varnish, done well, everything. Just didn't want to repeat.

When you get your 32, it is perfect for a couple. The engine space is not large and the ladder is great if you're young, but we had a terrific few years on ours. I actually don't like the 36, would never have a twin, hate the flybridge access and the crappy cockpit. My fave would have been a single 42 Europa, but they are rare and pricey. I saw a single 42 Europa with a Gardner in her once, that I would have killed for.

Get a transome gate and a rear cockpit cover.
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:13 PM   #189
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I meant one's own kids as well as guest's kids.

True enough but our "baby" is 14 and can sleep comfortably on a picket fence. The other two are seeing the world on the governments dime so one stateroom works. All 3 of them and my wife are night owls so a couple rum and cokes and I'll sleep fine. Of course that's plan A. Plan B is a horse of a different color altogether and is where a Bayliner may be a good fit.
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Old 01-03-2015, 01:30 PM   #190
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Regarding what I said about boat buyers designing boats it seemed quite obvious to me. Marin of course knows me well and understood for that reason. Tail fins didn't appear on cars because engineers thought they would make better cars. Cadillac did it in 48 and it took off. Not an advance of any kind but people liked them so evolution of the Cadilic went fwd. Eventially it was seen as silly and marketing forces changed the design again. Boats of the 50s didn't have flying bridges but they did in the 60s. Consumers approved and they are still with us.
Engineers decide other things like the location of equipment in a boat, what kind of glass to use, fuel tanks and many other things. So the purchasing agents and engineers may sort of overlap at times but PAs don't design hulls. That's for naval architects as is weight and balance ect. But the consumer even has a say in that too. There is the deadrise V/S performance, seaworthyness and a smooth ride in a chop or even the nasty. Women largely dictate the freeboard of pleasure boats ... don't want to get too close to the water. A low freeboard makes much more sense but you rarely see it .... except on a troller, gillnetter or lobsterboat.

But most of the designing of a pleasure boat is done by the boat buyers dollar.
Regarding consumers designing things, I have the opposite view, but I'm extremely biased....

Occasionally focus groups or design teams come up with something that works, but most of the time the results are un-focused, muddy messes. The problem is that group design will fail unless bound by a really strong lead vision. There are always conflicts, and one mind seems to be able (sufficiently skilled) to order the conflicts into (occasionally) great art. That 48 Cadillac was not designed by any group, it was one guy, Franklin Q. Hershey, (inspired by the Lockheed P-38) who designed it.

I've been part of group design efforts Truebuild Yachts In the end no one is happy because there are too many conflicts and nobody gets what he or she wants.

IMO the very best design comes out of strong single-minded vision. Example; Krogan 42, 1976, Art Kady (an experienced sailor) came to James Krogan (a very experienced designer) for a long distance coastwise cruiser. James sat down in front of a piece of paper and drew the boat, it's still popular.
Hinckley Picnic boat, 1995, three guys owned a sailboat company and wanted a dayboat for themselves. They had no idea anyone else wanted such a thing. They came to us, I drew a boat, they built it and spawned an entire industry segment.
Chris-Craft, 1998 (?), was failing, trying to build running shoe boats to compete with SeaRay. Someone said let's try something classic, the contract went to Mike Peters, he drew 3 launches, the entire line is now based on that single vision.
Passagemaker, Bob Beebe's original, not the result of any group, just one guy. Arguably the beginning of the entire "trawler" market and lifestyle.

I have lot's more examples....
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Old 01-03-2015, 01:54 PM   #191
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If you want to make money you design what your customers want using their input, however you choose to get it. If you want to be creative and do what YOU think something should be, you do your own thing. Unless you really screw up, the first method almost always works. Unless you get very, very lucky, the second method, while maybe satisfying the creator, rarely becomes very profitable or successful.

Customer input only becomes a muddy mess if you let it. This is a lesson I've learned both in commercial television and at my current employer, where we've done it right and we've done it wrong. Gathering, organizing, and incorporating customer input effectively is as critical a part of the product creation process as the nuts and bolts design and manufacturing.

Done correctly, one invariably ends up with a better and more successful product, be it jetliners, movies, dishwashers or boats.
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Old 01-03-2015, 03:13 PM   #192
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Back in the late 50's or early 60's, Chrysler Corporation commissioned a market research team to find out what consumers wanted in an automobile. The resounding answer was no frills basic transportation. You know stick shift, nothing power, small engines, good gas mileage, bland styling, no chrome, etc. So they commenced manufacturing cars as a result of this marketing intelligence. Well, the cars did not sell.

So, Chrysler sent out their marketing research people to do a followup. Again, the results were the same except for the last question. That was what features are they going to demand when they make their next auto purchase. The answer was they were going to buy a car with the same features as their neighbors new car. And when the MR types walked out the door to see what the neighbor bought, it was a flashy V8 with auto trans and power this and power that and got poor gas mileage.

Consumers DO DESIGN products but they do so with their pocket book and not their specifications and drawings. That is why there are so many me too boats.
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Old 01-03-2015, 03:31 PM   #193
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It's actually an integrated process. Builder or designer uses their knowledge and bases the product on what they believe the consumer wants. Sometimes they even go out on a limb with what they think the consumer needs whether they want it or not.

Then the consumer responds and either confirms the beliefs or the product changes.

Those designers who have started products have had tremendous knowledge of users and needs. They've designed to that need.

Sometimes the consumer does not speak beyond saying "we don't like that".

Sometimes the consumer ends up accepting different than what they really want because they take the closest they find.

Regardless it's an ongoing process of creativity and reading signs of demand.
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Old 01-03-2015, 04:03 PM   #194
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I was wondering what you'd think of my post as I was writing it.

Your post is very correct IMO. However nothing is better than the sum of it's parts and the committee designed thing will appeal to many perhaps even most but still is a "mess" as you say. But the "mess" will have fewer faults that will turn off buyers. No William Gardner boat could have been designed by a committee and other great things usually don't come from the committee either. Bayliner would never have built my Willard. Right off the bat ....... too slow. Wouldn't appeal to enough buyers. Mass produced things need to appeal to most people. Mass produced things (like a Bayliner) will rarely excell in any one way. Haha .... except in sales.

If people want a high freeboard boat they will buy high freeboard boats and shun low freeboard boats and the design (high FB boats) will come about as dictated by the consumer. Wide boats? What does the consumer buy? Narrow boats? No they don't. Too little room and they are tippy. Nobody (almost) builds narrow boats and the consumer decides that. You once told me when I asked if lengthening a boat was a good idea and you said that most boats can benefit from being longer. That means most boats are too wide ... and I agree.

In your example Kady dictated the elements of the design to Krogen and Kady's boat was drawn up and built. Kady being a smart man probably allowed Krogen to sway his wants to a more usable final design. But it wasn't Krogen's boat in more ways than one.

My mother was an artist and hired a Norwegin brick layer to build a fireplace in our new house. She had it all designed and she went all around the boxing ring w him several times as he continued to tell her that wasn't the proper way to build fireplaces. I think she won most of the time. But she was smart and listened too.

Look around you and consider all you see. Most all the time it's the marketplace that does the designing.
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Old 01-03-2015, 04:46 PM   #195
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You want something beautiful? More artists-less accountants!
This thread made me reminisce about the many car, RV, and yacht dealers I've known and worked with over the years and listening to their philosophy of what sells to what market and why. Basically it boiled down to what market was offered a particular product. If there was a Winnebago(or Gulfstar, Carver, or Bayliner) dealership in an area naturally there would be more product loyalty for those products in those areas. In other words people will buy what's offered them and they retain higher resale values there. Ford Torinos were popular in Tennessee but you rarely saw them in Georgia where the Mopars ruled. ETC.
They didn't factor in anything else in their equations and all their inventory sold. Even with yachts, its rare the buyer who will travel far to buy a new yacht. When a dealer no longer carries a particular line, the dropped products reputation declines rather rapidly. Navigator on the east coast comes to mind. All of a sudden it was "what are they, they any good, must not be since they don't sell them anymore?". Not true-but perception. It's why strong dealer networks are so important for the success of a product.

What rather irks me is how current manufacturers will just stop making great products or even colors. I've been a Benz guy for a longtime, and when one gets close to 50k miles, I go buy another. Remember the beautiful colors they used to come in? Greens, blues, reds, champagne, even an occasional yellow! So I traded in a gorgeous blue over blue-but wanted the same color-"sorry we don't have that anymore" instead bought a white, which at least had a blue top. Couple of years pass, go get another one-now the tops are all black. So I ended up with a triple black car. Didn't want black! I walked into the sales managers office (did I mention I drink a collada of Cuban coffee a day?) And asked rather loudly "why don't you people make colored (actually used the n word)cars anymore?!!! His answer was :"people only want black, white, or silver". I asked "did all your colored cars sell? YES, SO OBVIOUSLY COLORED CARS DO SELL! But if we're only offered black, white, or silver then that's what we had to buy, doesn't mean that's what we wanted and of course you will think that's was what we wanted.. If you haven't noticed Audi offers cars in colors and their showrooms are packed, and yours are empty, give us what we want, or we'll vote with our feet, and you will become Home Depot as Lowes across the street cleans your clock". Since then, I've purchased 4 cars, none Benz (still in the garage) none silver or black! Even bought a yellow Crossfire convertible for the girl at a Lexus dealership that also had no cars of color in the showrooms save the Chrysler. I mention this solely to prove my feet were indeed voting.
Will I go buy another Benz Cabrio when this one gets close to 50k miles? NO. I'm more likely to just go buy a classic car of color instead. They gave me no more choices.
WHY did VW quit making the Beetle, Why did Brunswick quit building a pilothouse? And for gods sake, back in the 80s WHY didn't GM just start building '57 Chevies' again? We would had bought them.
That's it. Rants over. Ron Paul good-Federal reserve bad!
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Old 01-03-2015, 05:23 PM   #196
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I believe that even Feadship had a program which allowed a choice of several interior variations on their small 39 meter series.
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Old 01-03-2015, 05:34 PM   #197
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Very interesting discussion,thank you all !
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Old 01-03-2015, 05:45 PM   #198
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Haha I was just thinking of trading a car last week and was looking on Craig's list. Preferred red w tan interior. Nada. Like you say black (ugh) silver and white. White is the most popular now. But there again it's the market designing the product. PH we are odd guys. Most want B, S pe W. So that's what is available. You gotta be like a chameleon and be and like vogue. Same thing though. The bulk of consumers determine the product. The last person (since Henry Ford) to decide the car color is the manufacturer.

We live in a manufactured house. Never done that before. Looks almost plastic from the outside. Don't like it. But inside I liked it right away. No ceiling is flat. I like the angles. I'll bet a lot of thought went into the floor plan and I wonder where the manufacturer got the input to generate the floor plan? Could the manufacturer know more than the buyer in this case? I doubt it. They just offered plans that sold well before. There's only one glaring fault that I've noticed.

Yes it's amazing how people will buy stuff close and not go to the trouble of shopping more. I'm the opposite. I'm waiting for a call right now about a $30 gas can (old Merc) that's almost 100 miles away. I need it for my kerosene fuel supply for my boats Wabasto.
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Old 01-03-2015, 07:11 PM   #199
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Hey Russell, I'm the guy with the big cocktail party. It was a yacht club function at a private moorage and we didn't bother a soul. Just wanted to put your mind at ease. My wife and I usually enjoy spending quiet times on the boat, but I was trying to point out how nice it is to have the flexibility to entertain a crowd on the 4788.
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:04 PM   #200
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You might recall this Photoshopped Bayliner 4788 LRC I imagined last year. Truth is, I was thinking that Bayliner, seeing the number of Boomers retiring, would have eventually hopped on the band-wagon with their own affordable trawer-style offering, using a tried and true hull with some minor styling, interior and tankage mods. .I doubt it was ever on anyones sketch board and even if it was, it would have been in the trash can by the end of 2007. I hate it that the big Bayliners are history, but I would have loved to see such a boat from Bay.
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