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Old 01-08-2010, 11:47 AM   #21
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RE: What's a fair offer?

Capn Chuck* -* Yes you can expect the*owner to make the boat look like new, if you are looking at newer well maintained yachts. I've looked at many where the boat was better than new, especially with all sorts of "new" systems added.**I looked at a 2-3 year old GB 49*that was better than new visually.

If the seller is representing the boat is in "bristol" shape, all is fair when you find problems during survey. One vessel I made an offer on was contingent upon the owner replacing all motor mounts and rebuilding the transmissions that were showing high metal.*His asking price reflected a vessel that was without these defects. He refused and the boat took another 18 months to sell and at a lower price than I had offered.

Dude is right, be tough. this is not a game for sissies.
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:53 AM   #22
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RE: What's a fair offer?

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Eastern Shore Bill wrote:

Once the survey is done, would it be standard practice to reduce the offer by the amount of essential fixes?
That's the typical custom.* You also have to determine what things you can correct yourself and what you might need a professional for.* If we had reduced the offer on the boat we bought by the cost of every single thing that needed dealing with, particularly the exterior cosmetic issues, the seller would never have accepted the offer.

But the boat was priced pretty fairly for the market at that time.* Not that we had the experience to know this, but in addition to our broker's advice we also had the advice of a good friend we took with us to California to look at and sea trial the boat with us and be present during the surveys.* Our friend has been an engineer in the marine industry for over 40 years and has had a vast experience with the type of boat we were looking at, and he didn't care if we bought it or not.* He advised us about things that didn't look so great but were well within our capabilities even then to deal with ourselves.* And he also advised on about issues that we would need a professional to deal with.* As did the hull and engine surveyors we hired.* The seller was willing to reduce the price because the autopilot was inoperative and would require x-amount of dollars to repair, but we didn't ask him to reduce the price because most of the exterior teak trim needed refinishing.

The bottom line is that you generally get what you pay for.* Sure, one can luck out and find a great boat that a widow is trying to sell just to get rid of it after her husband's death.* But for the most part, boats generally sell for what they should sell for.* The exceptions in today's market might be the really high-end boats, boats that start out a six or seven hundred grand and when they don't sell the price gets slashed by ten grand or so, and maybe in a few months another ten grand comes off.* But I guess this really isn't all that different from the seller of an $80,000 boat reducing the price by three or four thousand in the hopes of encouraging a sale.

If you don't care all that much about a particular boat, sure, you can try to knock the offer down a lot.* It might be accepted, it might not.* But if you are negotiating over a boat that you really do like and want, you will find that while there is always some wiggle room, you'll have to be willing to pay what it's honestly worth if you seriously want the boat.



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Old 01-08-2010, 12:30 PM   #23
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RE: What's a fair offer?

I hate to beat a dead horse.**It's the economy. If you have money you are at the helm and in control.

Take advantage of it.*

*It wouldn't be for sale if the owner didn't want out. The skipper is either looking to up grade* or is distressed. if it is an upgrade the*owner will gain what he looses on the next boat.*If distressed he will take what he can get.

*All the numbers drop* at both ends.*

I'm Done.
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:26 PM   #24
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RE: What's a fair offer?

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Capn Chuck* -* Yes you can expect the*owner to make the boat look like new, if you are looking at newer well maintained yachts. I've looked at many where the boat was better than new, especially with all sorts of "new" systems added.**I looked at a 2-3 year old GB 49*that was better than new visually.

If the seller is representing the boat is in "bristol" shape, all is fair when you find problems during survey. One vessel I made an offer on was contingent upon the owner replacing all motor mounts and rebuilding the transmissions that were showing high metal.*His asking price reflected a vessel that was without these defects. He refused and the boat took another 18 months to sell and at a lower price than I had offered.

Dude is right, be tough. this is not a game for sissies.
I have probably only been involved in the sale of several hundred boats over many years so I might not know much on the subject. There is a major difference with submitting a purchase on a boat someone has kept in perfect condition and one that has not. If any buyer came to any broker that I have ever worked for or to myself as a broker and demanded that every item on a used boat be repaired or adjusted for, I know of no broker or seller that would not have told him to go fly a kite, or words to that affect, and believe me when I tell you I have sold boats in worse economic climates than this. Chuck

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Old 01-08-2010, 01:46 PM   #25
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RE: What's a fair offer?

Chuck - where did I say replace every switch etc. I said look like new. But as a seller or broker, if you say Bristol you better be able to back it up.* I don't know why, but I'm always a teeny bit suspicious of boat brokers, car salesmen, insurance agents and financial planners.**With a wife who fits into two of these categories, I tread softly.
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Old 01-08-2010, 04:18 PM   #26
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RE: What's a fair offer?

I got lucky, both with my real estate agent and yacht broker. They were both stand-up guys that kept my feet grounded. We made FAIR offers on our house and our boat for a FAIR bit of capital. Sure there are exceptions, but generally, you get what you pay for. At the same time, we got what we wanted, when we wanted it, for what we budgeted for it. It's not that hard. Low-balls are for bottom-feeders and gamblers, not real buyers. IMHO... YMMV
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:35 PM   #27
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RE: What's a fair offer?

The seller shouldn't be insulted he will probably just make a counter offer then negociate from there. His counter will probably be more than he expects to get just as your offer will probably be for less than you expect to pay. Then work towards a price you can both live with or move on.
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:48 PM   #28
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What's a fair offer?

Lowballs are for finding the limits of the seller. I have sold my boats and have been lowballed severely. It was a $50k boat. The dude offered 25k. I countered at 48k. He came back at 30k. I cam back at 48k. He came back at 32k. I came back at 48k. He very soon realized where I wanted to be. I still did not think this guy was serious but I stayed in the game. He came back at 40k. I came back at 47k letting him know he was getting warmer and that I was back in the game. Him 42k....me 45k. Agreed and contract at 44k. Surveyed and readjusted for 43.5k and it sold at that price. A very fair price for both of us and no hard feelings. I still see the boat around and he has done great things with it which I think is cool.

Keep your emotions out of it.

My current boat found me and followed me around on the internet. The dude had a new boat coming in and it was late Oct. in New York. Boats don't sell in the winter in NY and he was looking at storing and owning 2 boats thru the winter. He also wanted to do an "in and out" with the dealer to save on sales tax....which was significant. I liked the boat but it was way outta my budget. The dude kept riding me and lowering the price until I cried "uncle". It was $25k less than where he started!!!! But he was't stupid. He knew that he was looking at MORE than that in expenses and lost savings(ref sales tax) so it still made sense to him.He also paid the majority of shipping from NY to TX and filled the tanks with fuel and let a dinghy go with it!!!I saw it as the opportunity to own a boat like this and be able to unload it easily should I wish to. Well since the economy dumped,not so easy to unload a boat even at a good price. It is till a lot of money to most people.


-- Edited by Baker on Friday 8th of January 2010 06:50:44 PM
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Old 01-09-2010, 04:42 AM   #29
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RE: What's a fair offer?

Low-balls are for bottom-feeders and gamblers, not real buyers. IMHO... YMMV


The secert to a good low ball is to get HELP.

The best help is acquired by handing the broker a check for 10% (his commission) of your offer.

He will work his butt off to get the offer accepted.

Your insurance is in the face of the check,

Subject to Survey.

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Old 01-09-2010, 08:54 PM   #30
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RE: What's a fair offer?

Speaking of insurance, we have to provide a current survey with haulout for our insurance renewal. We are currently in Mississippi- with only three surveyors available. I talked with all 3, hoping to find someone with a good bit of TT experience. Not the case- AND the going rate is $15 per foot, plus the haulout charge. *I worked a deal with one that is going to charge me $12 per foot. With me providing our prior survey and me being his "helper". That part I like.When we purchased our boat the price had just been dropped signifigantly. After seeing the ship we offered a price that was an additional 12% off. He accepted- but sent back not to beat him up on the survey. She surveyed well and we stayed with the agreed price.
I think if you are putting a bid on a vessel YOU HAVE TO HAVE (never a good idea) then you *would want to be careful on a lowball offer. Some owners would let pride direct their response and the price might go up!
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Old 01-10-2010, 06:05 AM   #31
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RE: What's a fair offer?

I can tell you that I'm one of those folks who doesn't respond well to a low-ball offer. One guy came to look at my last boat, and started telling me what bad shape she was in. "Very rough" among other comments. I told him to get lost. When I had my current boat on the market, some guy told my broker he "might" be interested at about $50,000 less than the asking price. I told the broker to tell him to kiss my ass. Still have the boat and that's fine with me.

At some point if I decide I must sell it, I might entertain these types of offers, but I'm not there yet!

One other thing I've learned over the years. Your boat is only worth what the cheapest similar one on the market is going for. It doesn't matter how well it's been taken care of, what equipment it has, how pretty it is... everybody will only look at the cheapest 1994 brand X on Yachtworld and that's what yours is worth too, until the other one is off the market.* People don't care about your maintenance, upgrades, etc.
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:32 AM   #32
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RE: What's a fair offer?

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Keith wrote:
One other thing I've learned over the years. Your boat is only worth what the cheapest similar one on the market is going for. It doesn't matter how well it's been taken care of, what equipment it has, how pretty it is... everybody will only look at the cheapest 1994 brand X on Yachtworld and that's what yours is worth too, until the other one is off the market.* People don't care about your maintenance, upgrades, etc.
You had me until this. I disagree deeply with this. A good broker and informed shopper know the difference and appreciate a well cared for boat. Thus, make offers accordingly. I was a bottom-feeder early in our shopping, but quickly realized that these diamonds-in-the-rough are VERY RARE and began specifically looking for well cared for boats that were priced fairly. That said, we did come in with a low offer, but not a LOWBALL offer. We settled on a fair price that was in line with the market, but not the lowest. I try and treat sellers as I would like to be treated. Lowball offers are insulting and very few sellers, like trying to find the other diamonds, will quickly accept offers like this.
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Old 01-11-2010, 12:54 PM   #33
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What's a fair offer?

Quote:
Keith wrote:

One other thing I've learned over the years. Your boat is only worth what the cheapest similar one on the market is going for. It doesn't matter how well it's been taken care of, what equipment it has, how pretty it is... everybody will only look at the cheapest 1994 brand X on Yachtworld and that's what yours is worth too, until the other one is off the market.* People don't care about your maintenance, upgrades, etc.
I very much disagree. When we purchased our boat, there were many similar ones for much less money.* As a mater of fact, the one we bought was the MOST expensive one on the market at the time. When I first looked at it, I dismissed it due to the high price, but after looking at all the others, I was drawn back to it due to the high level of maintenance, care, and equipment.* Meanwhile, I have kept a very detailed record of the maintenance I perform, including photos of all equipment inspected or overhauled.* I write everything I do in the log book, and can prove to a future buyer that the boat is in excellent condition even prior to a survey.* I have also labeled almost every valve, wire, switch, and gauge to make it easier for anyone to figure out. In addition, I have written a comprehensive operations manual that explains every system in detail, and how to operate them.* I have no doubt that when the time comes to sell, I will have a huge advantage over the cheapest similar model on the market.* .............Arctic Traveller

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-- Edited by Arctic Traveller on Monday 11th of January 2010 11:48:05 PM
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:44 PM   #34
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RE: What's a fair offer?

While we can agree or disagree with Keith, I do understand what he is saying. That is what the buyers will be coming at you with...."....well I saw so and so boat for this price...". I have a boat on the market right now and I feel the sting of this.....although mine is w=one of the cheapest ones of it's type.
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:06 PM   #35
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RE: What's a fair offer?

I think we've got a more experienced and sophisticated bunch of boat buyers/owners on this forum, so my comment may not apply to them, but it sure does to the general boat buying public.
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Old 01-11-2010, 07:29 PM   #36
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RE: What's a fair offer?

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That is what the buyers will be coming at you with...."....well I saw so and so boat for this price...".


*
In which case you tell them to buy that boat instead.* If they do, then that is what this make and model of boat is worth to them.* If they don't and keep coming back to your boat, then they obviously feel your boat has advantages of some sort over the other, less expensive one(s).* So unless you are so desperate to sell that*even the*asking price of a boat much crappier than*yours looks good to you, you make a*buyer pay for*the advantages they're getting with your boat.

I agree with Jeff that every boat is NOT worth only what the cheapest example of that boat happens to be.* Every boat has to be taken on its own merits, just like cars.* An immaculate 1955 Ford Thunderbird is not worth the same as a 1955 Thunderbird with a worn-out engine or bad paint or trashed upholsery or a rusty chassis or a combination of all of the above.* The same is true of boats.

I think the only think that narrows the value gap between a really good example of a particular make and model of boat and a poorly cared for*boat of the same make and model is the pressure--- self-induced or otherwise---*on the seller to sell.
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Old 01-11-2010, 08:13 PM   #37
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RE: What's a fair offer?

An informed buyer, one that has studied yachtworld and other resources, I think- falls into two purchase categories. He either has studied the market to be able to pick out the cheapest available vessel in the design he wants OR he has studied the market to pick out the best example of the vessel he wants. If he wants the best- then the broker or seller needs to make it obvious to the potential buyer why it is the best example. Electronics, oil samples, upgrades and maintenance documentation would be examples of this. This buyer will pay more in my experience (with machine sales). He has the funding to buy the best. He just needs to be able to justify to his buds why he spent extra. The buyer looking for the cheapest vessel in town will never be a good fit unless you , as a seller, categorize your vessel as "the cheapest one available". I hope I never have to sell in this category.
By far, the best is the uninformed buyer You tell him what he needs- of course based on what you have to sell!!
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:21 PM   #38
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What's a fair offer?

<<"the cheapest one available". I hope I never have to sell in this category.>>

Forky, I never SELL in that category.....I BUY in it!!!!!

-- Edited by Baker on Monday 11th of January 2010 11:22:20 PM
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