Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-12-2013, 04:25 PM   #81
Senior Member
 
jukesy's Avatar
 
City: Victoria BC
Vessel Name: LUCKY US
Vessel Model: American Tug
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 268
Well I for one, having watched a 14 year old drown in the water 30 feet from where I was standing and unable to assist will never again leave someone in danger regardless of the outcome. 30 years later and still full of guilt. I will take any steps needed to see that people in harms way will get a helping hand from this skipper!
__________________
Advertisement

jukesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 04:42 PM   #82
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Perhaps it is the direct knowledge of this example that has influenced my unwillingness to render assistance in anything other than the most dire circumstances.
That very well may explain the situation for you Marin. With all due respect to your friends perhaps something extraordinary took place to sway the opinion of the jury? Either way it stinks just the same.

My experience has been quite the opposite. I've rendered assistance both on and off road dozens of times to stranded motorists. Be it ladies with flat tires on a dark highway at night, especially before the prevalent usage of cell phones today. Also off road at 4 wheel drive locations, folks stranded with stuck or broken vehicles. Some of those incidents included injured parties too. Hunting trips in the boonies and such as well.

Never once have I been anything but thanked profusely for the assistance I've rendered. I also never tried any super-human efforts at things I had no business trying to accomplish either. There is a difference between approaching a situation you have no competence in nor business trying, and lending someone a hand with a rather mundane task that they are otherwise not equipped to perform on their own.

Would I assist someone on the water? Yes, but only after taking precautions and exhausting other options first. I'd also not tow anyone at an insane speed with a piece of dental floss for a tow rope. S.W.L. ratings on ropes and slings are there for a reason and I understand thoroughly the parameters they are tested under. Do I have an assistance policy of my own? Yes, bought it the day I bought the boat. Thank goodness assistance from a contractor that provides those services is available in my area.

I know there are instances where folks may possibly be sued for otherwise well intentioned things. I just have chosen to live my life treating others with dignity and respect, giving them the benefit of the doubt to do what is right. I would prefer my actions to be judged by a jury of 12 than live with regret for not attempting to assist when I know I could. So far it has worked well and oddly on the few occasions I've needed assistance it has worked well for me.

Sorry jukesy, just saw your post.
__________________

__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 05:25 PM   #83
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
Read the next paragraph- context is everything:

"For example, had Neville not thrown a life ring to the Valdez family, a court may find this omission to be wrong. But, it would unlikely lead to any liability because the test is whether that failure put the family in any greater peril than they were already in. Under this test, liability will only be imposed in a maritime rescue situation where the rescuer, through lack of due care, has worsened the position of the victim."

And this falls in line with Title 46, subs 2303, of the US Code.
.
.......................................... ....................
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 05:56 PM   #84
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
^^^Cherrypicking to make a point is poor form: Again, context is key.

The next paragraph:

"It is understood that rescues do not always succeed, despite the efforts of those who give assistance. Courts will rarely second guess one who voluntarily gives aid under the dangerous conditions of the sea “under the bright light cast by . . . hindsight.” Fondow v. Unites States, 112 F. Supp.2d 119; Korpi v. Unites States, 961 F. Supp. 1335 (holding that a “rescue attempt must be considered in the light of the
circumstances that faced the rescuers when they acted and not with the wisdom of an ‘armchair admiral’ after the fact.”"


Case law. It all boils down to case law that supports the application of the law. The article is supposition on a case and what MAY have happened. The 2 above examples are case law of what DID happen. Big difference.

Look we can agree, or agree to disagree- I'm good either way. But I've not been able to find a single instance where the party providing assistance has been found negligent or successfully litigated against for rendering said assistance- civil or criminal. I've discussed with with underwriters and claims personnel of the various companies we represent, so I have a better understanding of the material. Do you know of any case law pertaining to this?

Not 1 instance of the maritime Good Sam being successfully sued.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 06:46 PM   #85
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
The problem is rumors of lawsuits are worse than reality. Reality is I know nobody who after giving a good faith effort to assist someone, actually be sued by anyone. Let alone a successful lawsuit.

Urban legend gives into facts to the point that otherwise helpful folks refuse to help based upon perceived risk of legal action that never materializes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_(litigation)

Basis
A settlement, as well as dealing with the dispute between the parties is a contract between those parties, and is one possible (and common) result when parties sue (or contemplate so doing) each other in civil proceedings. The plaintiff(s) and defendant(s) identified in the lawsuit can end the dispute between themselves without a trial.[1]
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 06:54 PM   #86
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,668
Wow! Glad I boat where I do where every other boater isn't either a drug smuggler or potential tort case.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 07:33 PM   #87
Senior Member
 
mahal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
Wow! Glad I boat where I do where every other boater isn't either a drug smuggler or potential tort case.
Don't let those smugglers and sue-happy boaters dissuade from boating in our waters. There are antidotes to them. For the smugglers - pack heat, an assault rifle is preferred (don't worry as many boaters here are armed like you won't believe). For the sue-happy folks that you might have to tow - well, if you damage their boat and they seem like the sue-happy types, you have that assault rifle.
mahal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 08:06 PM   #88
Guru
 
City: somewhere
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,356
I use Seatow
__________________
Life is a Beach
beachbum29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 08:17 PM   #89
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,173
I can't believe some of you guys some times. Not willing to believe the practicing litigator when he explains how it works in reality, but instantly believe the rumor mongers who know nothing about the law but "have heard" how it applies.

As both a lawyer and a member of the RCM-SAR (used to be called the Coast Guard Auxiliary) I will continue to offer whatever assistance I am equipped to offer, including a tow, if it is prudent to do so and requested by someone in difficulty. Most recently I towed a 40 ft sailboat 20 miles from one of our YC outstations to my home marina (not his) as every other boat had already headed home and there was no other way for him to get home, in calm conditions. He and his wife and kids would otherwise have had to call a $ tow. With a bridle and keeping my speed down to his hull speed, all went well. I got home maybe an hour late, but he got home the same day.
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 08:18 PM   #90
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum29 View Post
I use Seatow
I suggested that way back. I use TowBoatUS, but either one will do. A simple tow can be $500. Pay $150 in advance and you pay no additional in the vast majority of cases.

I have a friend who has been towed home 40 miles by TowBoatUS on two separate occasions at no cost other than his membership fee.

On the other hand, I often hear these yahoos calling the Coast Guard because they are broken down. The CG refers them to one of the towing services but when they find out how much it will cost them, they decline and ask the CG to broadcast for someone to tow them for free.

If I can't afford $150 for towing insurance, my boat will stay in the slip.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 08:27 PM   #91
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	original.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	33.1 KB
ID:	17959  
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 09:19 PM   #92
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Shrimp boat burns in Houston Ship Channel | News - Home

Sure hope they don't get sued for helping out
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 10:50 PM   #93
Senior Member
 
Nsail's Avatar
 
City: Benicia CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
^^^Cherrypicking to make a point is poor form: Again, context is key.

The next paragraph:

"It is understood that rescues do not always succeed, despite the efforts of those who give assistance. Courts will rarely second guess one who voluntarily gives aid under the dangerous conditions of the sea “under the bright light cast by . . . hindsight.” Fondow v. Unites States, 112 F. Supp.2d 119; Korpi v. Unites States, 961 F. Supp. 1335 (holding that a “rescue attempt must be considered in the light of the
circumstances that faced the rescuers when they acted and not with the wisdom of an ‘armchair admiral’ after the fact.”"

Case law. It all boils down to case law that supports the application of the law. The article is supposition on a case and what MAY have happened. The 2 above examples are case law of what DID happen. Big difference.

Look we can agree, or agree to disagree- I'm good either way. But I've not been able to find a single instance where the party providing assistance has been found negligent or successfully litigated against for rendering said assistance- civil or criminal. I've discussed with with underwriters and claims personnel of the various companies we represent, so I have a better understanding of the material. Do you know of any case law pertaining to this?

Not 1 instance of the maritime Good Sam being successfully sued.

I can't see the entire article, can you? If you can, where can I find it?

If you can't, then everybody discussing it is cherry picking. Without reading the entire article, it's difficult to understand what really happened and therefore difficult to understand any points that anybody is trying to make. In other words, you're wasting everybody's time.
Nsail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 11:09 PM   #94
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nsail View Post
I can't see the entire article, can you? If you can, where can I find it?

If you can't, then everybody discussing it is cherry picking. Without reading the entire article, it's difficult to understand what really happened and therefore difficult to understand any points that anybody is trying to make. In other words, you're wasting everybody's time.
The referenced article makes its initial appearance in post #73 of this thread. Here it is:

http://www.liboatingworld.com/archiv...BW/LIBW_22.pdf
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 11:20 PM   #95
Senior Member
 
Nsail's Avatar
 
City: Benicia CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 498
That's where I'm clicking, but only part of the article shows up. It says continued from page 21, but I can't seem to access page 21 to read the entire thing. Am I missing something?
Nsail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 11:25 PM   #96
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,573
Thanks Peter, the page now posted is a continuation of p21, can you post it too?
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 03:25 AM   #97
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
Thanks Peter, the page now posted is a continuation of p21, can you post it too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nsail View Post
That's where I'm clicking, but only part of the article shows up. It says continued from page 21, but I can't seem to access page 21 to read the entire thing. Am I missing something?
Page 21 for your perusal, gents:

http://www.liboatingworld.com/archiv...BW/LIBW_21.pdf
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 02:09 PM   #98
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
That's because you don't live in a country where the lawyers outnumber the ants. In the US, greed is king and any way to make a dollar is a Good Way. Don't forget, this is the country where a lady can spill-- herself-- a hot cup of coffee she just bought from McDonalds (I think it was) in her lap, sue for damages, and win.

If you knew that every time you rendered assistance to another boater (or driver or anyone) there was a better than fair chance that you would be sued for anything ranging from physical injury to "mental hardship" by the person you helped (more often than not encouraged by a lawyer who found out about the incident), would you still be inclined to give assistance without giving it a second thought?

A lot of these cases don't go anywhere but enough of them do, and enough of the "rescuees" win, that it has soured a large part of the population, including me, on rendering assistance to anyone.

So I simply won't do it anymore outside of calling the emergency services. I'm not going to end up living in a cardboard box under a freeway because some bozo we helped when his boat broke down or he fell in the water sicks a lawyer on us because "we broke his toe" while lifting him aboard our boat or were helping him rig a towline, or that he suffered "mental anguish" as a result of our actions.
I'm glad I don't boat in your area!
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 02:11 PM   #99
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by koliver View Post
I can't believe some of you guys some times. Not willing to believe the practicing litigator when he explains how it works in reality, but instantly believe the rumor mongers who know nothing about the law but "have heard" how it applies.

As both a lawyer and a member of the RCM-SAR (used to be called the Coast Guard Auxiliary) I will continue to offer whatever assistance I am equipped to offer, including a tow, if it is prudent to do so and requested by someone in difficulty. Most recently I towed a 40 ft sailboat 20 miles from one of our YC outstations to my home marina (not his) as every other boat had already headed home and there was no other way for him to get home, in calm conditions. He and his wife and kids would otherwise have had to call a $ tow. With a bridle and keeping my speed down to his hull speed, all went well. I got home maybe an hour late, but he got home the same day.
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2013, 02:37 PM   #100
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,714
I'd tow him.

Especially w a crew member standing watch ready to throw his line in an instant.

I like the apparent fact that he's trying to take care of his mechanicals.
__________________

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012