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Old 04-12-2013, 06:22 AM   #61
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It's not unknown for people to pretend to be broken down and then when someone comes to their aid, they are robbed or worse.

This was SOP ,to get a delivery boat , before drugs were shipped in sealand boxes .
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:06 AM   #62
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Tiku(post 36 & 39) I'm with you. I have been around boats most of my life, and that was what my grandfather hammered into us. Perhaps a 'boatie' then was a different breed to now.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:07 AM   #63
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Tiku(post 36 & 39) I'm with you. I have been around boats most of my life, and that was what my grandfather hammered into us. Perhaps a 'boatie' then was a different breed to now.
I think (and hope) the "boatie" hasn't changed. How could someone pass by a boater who is waving at you and appears to need help? We couldn't and won't. Maybe we're too trusting?

We were off the Pacific Coast of Panama and a local boat flagged us down. Their engine wouldn't start and they asked us for a tow. About 20 minutes later, the Navy (drug police) show up. After a quick check, on we all go. In the last picture. The guys mechanic shows up, contacted via cell phone and everyone is happy.

We gave gasoline to a boat off the coast of Mexico one year so they could get home. Later that night they found our boat and dropped off a bunch of lobsters. No way we could pass by a disabled boat. I think what goes around, comes around?
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:30 AM   #64
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The only time I would consider refusing would be if conditions were such that there was a high chance of putting additional lives at risk. In those situations, I'd call for additional assistance and stand by if needed to take those onboard if they were at risk.
Or if someone was blind drunk but not in immediate risk. (above would apply anyway)

Law suits wouldn't even cross my mind. Perhaps I am just naive?
Nope- far from it!

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
A long time ago I tried to call for a tow for some guys in a broken down boat. SeaTow was reluctant to come out without talking to the actual operator of the broken down boat (makes sense to me) and while I was on the radio they got the engine started and took off without a word to me.

Just like towing insurance (in my area, at least), nobody should be out in a boat without a VHF transceiver. They should call for help themselves.

Two other points:

1) It's not unknown for people to pretend to be broken down and then when someone comes to their aid, they are robbed or worse.

2) I'm not typically just riding around in circles on the water, I have a destination and a schedule (more or less). Fooling around towing someone could take two or three hours out of my day and my planned progress. As I posted above, at least in my area, it's irresponsible to be out on the water without a VHF and towing insurance. They should be able to be towed home by a professional with the proper equipment and training without intruding into my day. Tow them and they will expect it the next time. If I boated in an area where professional towing was not available, I might react differently.

If someone had a true medical emergency, that would be a different story. I would see what I could do but of course seven knots is not good for emergency transport.
Agreed- good points. We have no problem modifying our schedule for a vessel in distress- heck, it's boating, and keeping schedules loose and flexible is part of the game!

In all my years of boating in SoCal, and many trips down the Baja peninsula, I've never worried about piracy, or someone needing assistance being a red herring. I'll continue to not worry about it.......
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:58 AM   #65
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http://www.boattest.com/Resources/vi...px?NewsID=4167......

It’s a rare occurrence that one boater would see another in a jam offshore and not stop to help. But in some instances, the help you render could be the wrong kind. Let’s take the subject of towing, for example. Most recreational powerboats are not designed to be tow boats, nor have their owners, in most cases, been educated on safe towing procedures. Towing another boat is fraught with risks, including the potential for serious injury, damage to the boat needing help or to tow boat, to say nothing of the possibility of resulting litigation. Yet, it is your obligation to help a fellow boater in distress. What to do? Here is our recommendation about how to do your duty and stay out of trouble at the same time.

.......

Average Insurance Claim
Beyond all the technical aspects of towing, Allstate Insurance reports that boats damaged during Good Sam tows incur a minimum of $550 in damage, on average. Additionally, insurance carriers may void the policies of Good Sam towers who damage their (or the disabled) boat or cause harm by engaging in risky endeavors, which a tow is considered to be. Get out your policy and check, or call your insurance agent.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:30 AM   #66
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I think (and hope) the "boatie" hasn't changed. How could someone pass by a boater who is waving at you and appears to need help? We couldn't and won't. Maybe we're too trusting?

We were off the Pacific Coast of Panama and a local boat flagged us down. Their engine wouldn't start and they asked us for a tow. About 20 minutes later, the Navy (drug police) show up. After a quick check, on we all go. In the last picture. The guys mechanic shows up, contacted via cell phone and everyone is happy.

We gave gasoline to a boat off the coast of Mexico one year so they could get home. Later that night they found our boat and dropped off a bunch of lobsters. No way we could pass by a disabled boat. I think what goes around, comes around?
Larry,

It's a good thing that your experience was not the same as what FF described. You sir are a class act. The pics are great - if you look at the faces, they go from looking sad (pic#1) to happy (pic#3). Thank you.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:37 AM   #67
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Not having a towing bridle.... I would probably stay close by to help if they broke down. A side tie of a sailboat with our freeboard would be rough...and without a lot of fenders would damage us probably....

I'd certainly stay close by to help if I could...
Don't you have a anchor bridle? That is what I use to tow with, since we don't anchor!
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:48 AM   #68
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To Tow, or, Not to Tow | BoatTEST.com......

Itís a rare occurrence that one boater would see another in a jam offshore and not stop to help. But in some instances, the help you render could be the wrong kind. Letís take the subject of towing, for example. Most recreational powerboats are not designed to be tow boats, nor have their owners, in most cases, been educated on safe towing procedures. Towing another boat is fraught with risks, including the potential for serious injury, damage to the boat needing help or to tow boat, to say nothing of the possibility of resulting litigation. Yet, it is your obligation to help a fellow boater in distress. What to do? Here is our recommendation about how to do your duty and stay out of trouble at the same time.

.......

Average Insurance Claim
Beyond all the technical aspects of towing, Allstate Insurance reports that boats damaged during Good Sam tows incur a minimum of $550 in damage, on average. Additionally, insurance carriers may void the policies of Good Sam towers who damage their (or the disabled) boat or cause harm by engaging in risky endeavors, which a tow is considered to be. Get out your policy and check, or call your insurance agent.

Allstate is a Boat Form policy, and does not cover for a whole host of maritime related incidents (Named Perils only). I find it interesting that BoatTest would not go to a true marine insurer (All Risk policy) for statistics or information relating to vessel insurance.

No carrier I know of (marine specialty insurance) would void coverage based on rendering assistance- doing so would violate the law. I checked a few of our carriers:

ACE Recreation Marine:

TOWING EXCLUSION:
a. We do not provide coverage for loss or damage resulting from the Insured Vessel as shown on the Declarations Page towing any other vessel, excepting:
i. a Dinghy/Tender owned by you;
ii. non-owned vessels in distress or unintentionally disabled, provided there is no consideration for your services;
iii. the Insured Vessel towing another vessel owned by you while navigating inland waters, rivers or the Great Lakes, subject to the Navigation Warranty attached to this policy.
b. We do not provide coverage for loss or damage to the Insured Vessel while it is being towed,
excepting:
i. when the purpose of such a tow is an attempt to aid the Insured Vessel while it is in distress or
unintentionally disabled;
ii. when another vessel owned by you is towing the Insured Vessel while navigating inland waters, rivers or the Great Lakes, subject to the Navigation Warranty attached to this policy.

Markel American: no exclusions/conditions.

Travelers/Travelers Luxury Yacht: no exclusions/conditions.

International Marine Underwriters/One Beacon: no exclusions/conditions.

Seaworthy: No exclusions/conditions.

Chartis: no exclusions/conditions.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:47 PM   #69
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To the OP, I think you did all you could and offered, but were turned down, the appropriate level of assistance. Posting here for others' opinions shows you are concerned with doing the right thing. Well done. Wish we had more real boaters like you.

Those boaters who are willing to render aid to others in peril will accept the risks that come with rendering aid and do it for the right reasons...not self-aggrandizement. I have and will continue to assist when needed. I have never been sued, but have learned new skills and made new friends in the process.

Those who are less inclined to assist others in peril can always rationalize it with excuses for self-injury or financial loss. The descriptions of the risks posted here sound like great exaggerations of current conditions in the USA. IMO, if towing insurance is available to you for $150 and there are assist boats in the vicinity to provide assistance, then it's a wise purchase. But if it's not available to you, why in the world would you purchase it? It doesn't make sense to me, but some folks never consider other situations that differ from their own.

I seriously doubt any rational discussion here will change the minds of those wannabe boaters who refuse to help others, are just in it for themselves or just post here to appear larger than life. Some here have even admitted their posts here are just a game to them...a project...and do so to evoke a reaction from others. I refuse to play in their games.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:07 PM   #70
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Ditto to the above comments! Well put.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:11 PM   #71
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Law and Disorder | Boating Magazine

The Law: According to our experts, boaters who think that the Good Samaritan approach will shield them from liability could be thinking wrong. "You won't find statutes," says Joan Wenner, a maritime lawyer from Orlando. "But there is case law in contributory negligence." In plain English: "People don't realize that if they try to help someone, they could be sued."
Different states have different rules, but even if your state has a Good Samaritan law on the books designed to indemnify people who come to the aid of others, it may not keep you out of trouble.
But wait, the federal rule says you are bound to help, so how can you be punished for doing so? Simple: If you mess up, you could open the books for civil action. "The general rule is that once you undertake a 'duty,' you have an obligation to carry out that duty properly," says Lennon. "Any negligence, real or perceived, in helping someone could create a civil liability for you for property damage or personal injury."
Adds Gerald McGill, a maritime attorney with the McGill Law Firm in Pensacola, "If you tow someone's boat over a sandbar, you may be liable."
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:15 PM   #72
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..............Those who are less inclined to assist others in peril can always rationalize it with excuses for self-injury or financial loss. The descriptions of the risks posted here sound like great exaggerations of current conditions in the USA. IMO, if towing insurance is available to you for $150 and there are assist boats in the vicinity to provide assistance, then it's a wise purchase. But if it's not available to you, why in the world would you purchase it? It doesn't make sense to me, but some folks never consider other situations that differ from their own.

I seriously doubt any rational discussion here will change the minds of those wannabe boaters who refuse to help others, are just in it for themselves or just post here to appear larger than life. Some here have even admitted their posts here are just a game to them...a project...and do so to evoke a reaction from others. I refuse to play in their games.
I think I know who is attempting to appear "larger than life" here. You could have posted your thoughts without the implied insult to those who feel or act differently than you.

Your language here is exactly what makes this forum so unfriendly at times.

I seldom agree with psneeld, but I have to agree with him on this issue. Boat towing should be left to trained professionals with the proper equipment unless there are no other options.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:30 PM   #73
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Law and Disorder | Boating Magazine

The Law: According to our experts, boaters who think that the Good Samaritan approach will shield them from liability could be thinking wrong. "You won't find statutes," says Joan Wenner, a maritime lawyer from Orlando. "But there is case law in contributory negligence." In plain English: "People don't realize that if they try to help someone, they could be sued."
Different states have different rules, but even if your state has a Good Samaritan law on the books designed to indemnify people who come to the aid of others, it may not keep you out of trouble.
But wait, the federal rule says you are bound to help, so how can you be punished for doing so? Simple: If you mess up, you could open the books for civil action. "The general rule is that once you undertake a 'duty,' you have an obligation to carry out that duty properly," says Lennon. "Any negligence, real or perceived, in helping someone could create a civil liability for you for property damage or personal injury."
Adds Gerald McGill, a maritime attorney with the McGill Law Firm in Pensacola, "If you tow someone's boat over a sandbar, you may be liable."
Any case law to support the opinions of the lawyers?

Like insurance, the "what if" scenario is part of the legal system. However, the wording of admiralty law and Federal law present a "high legal hurdle" to overcome for civil or criminal lawsuits.

http://www.liboatingworld.com/archiv...BW/LIBW_22.pdf
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:38 PM   #74
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http://www.liboatingworld.com/archiv...BW/LIBW_22.pdf

"As a practical matter, this means that if the
rescuer puts the crew in any greater peril than they
were already in, and injury ensues, liability may be
imposed."
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:46 PM   #75
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http://www.liboatingworld.com/archiv...BW/LIBW_22.pdf

"As a practical matter, this means that if the
rescuer puts the crew in any greater peril than they
were already in, and injury ensues, liability may be
imposed."
Read the next paragraph- context is everything:

"For example, had Neville not thrown a life ring to the Valdez family, a court may find this omission to be wrong. But, it would unlikely lead to any liability because the test is whether that failure put the family in any greater peril than they were already in. Under this test, liability will only be imposed in a maritime rescue situation where the rescuer, through lack of due care, has worsened the position of the victim."

And this falls in line with Title 46, subs 2303, of the US Code.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:53 PM   #76
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Anything I can do to help and ensure others needing help get help!

Like the OP made effort to do.

Even if that means being a nosey neighbor!

Towing a fellow pleasure boater on my level is not brain surgery, never has been and aint today!

If that is not within your skill set no biggy, is what it is, you simply decline.

My fear is when people stop helping one and another. Not a fear of trying to help!
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:54 PM   #77
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The problem is rumors of lawsuits are worse than reality. Reality is I know nobody who after giving a good faith effort to assist someone, actually be sued by anyone. Let alone a successful lawsuit.

Urban legend gives into facts to the point that otherwise helpful folks refuse to help based upon perceived risk of legal action that never materializes.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:57 PM   #78
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The problem is rumors of lawsuits are worse than reality. Reality is I know nobody who after giving a good faith effort to assist someone, actually be sued by anyone. Let alone a successful lawsuit.

Urban legend gives into facts to the point that otherwise helpful folks refuse to help based upon perceived risk of legal action that never materializes.

Yup.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:06 PM   #79
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............Towing a fellow pleasure boater on my level is not brain surgery, never has been and aint today!
Perhaps it's not, but there are a lot of things that can go wrong with an untrained, unequipped person attempting to tow another boat.

My slip is adjacent to a well used public boat ramp so I see a lot of sights and often, these are amateurs towing boats. I cringe when I see some of the stupidity. Fortunately, as far as I know, only two people have died on the water around here since I first got my slip.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:14 PM   #80
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Reality is I know nobody who after giving a good faith effort to assist someone, actually be sued by anyone. Let alone a successful lawsuit.

Unfortunately I do, although the incident had nothing to do with boating. The person providing the assistance was later sued, the plaintiff won, and the damages were pretty staggering to the point where it significantly altered my acquaintance's life in a way from which he and his family are still trying to recover many years later.

Perhaps it is the direct knowledge of this example that has influenced my unwillingness to render assistance in anything other than the most dire circumstances.
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