What would you do?

[Marin]

So here's an interesting dilema.* I'm not looking for suggestions for us, but using us as an example for the question.

We may---- may being the operative word--- at some time in the not too distant future be in a position to increase our allotted boating funds.* We have determined two possibilities (and we are not considering any more so don't offer any suggestions ).**

Option 1*is to take our 1973 fiberglass*GB36 up to Vancouver, turn it over to a yard up there, and tell them to turn it into a brand new boat.* Completely rework the hull, new barrier, new*paint, new glued-down*teak decks, new engines, new generator, new*ergonomic*seat*cushions and upholstery, new dining table, new headliners,*new anything else that will benefit from being new.

Option 2 is to sell the GB36 as-is and buy a different boat.* We have decided there are only two boats that meet our criteria if we do this, and they are the drop-cockpit Grand Banks 46 and the Fleming 55.* That's it, those are the only two, the end.

Interestingly enough, we are both leaning toward the total rebuild of our existing boat.* The reasons are too numerous to list here, other than we feel the GB36 is the ideal size for what we do and ever will do*with a boat.* The GB46 and the FL55 are pretty big boats, larger than we actually need.* And*there's only the two of us and bigger boats are heavier boats to deal with at the dock, in the wind, etc.* But.... we've looked at examples of both of them and they are very, very nice boats.

We are well aware that Option 1 will involve spending FAR, FAR more money than the boat is worth or ever will be worth.* We bought the boat with the philosphy that we would never see a dime out of it when we were done with it.* It can be turned into a fish habitat.* But it would be nice to return it to not only new condition but better than new condition for the remainder of the time (hopefully a couple of decades) that we are still able to use it

So here's the question to discuss.....* if the money became available*to completely rework your current boat, fix everything that needs fixing, replace everything that you'd like to replace-- be they big ticket items like engines or small ticket items like anchors---*would you do this?* Or would you put the same amount of money toward a different boat?

I guess this is a sort of "how much do you like your boat?" question.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 11:08:42 PM

 

[hollywood8118]

Marin,

An interesting delema....

First.. how much do I like my present boat?, enough to dump that kind of money and effort into her.. nope!

If you are going to do that kind of project... you are doing it because you like the project aspect of it.* Don't get me wrong I like to tinker on boats but it is for the end result of using the boat to " get away ". If you are going to dump that kind of money dump it into a boat you have some hope of getting at least some of your money back.

My money* would go into the Fleming 55, beautiful boats that I have always dreamed about.* A bigger boat doesn't necessarily equate to a tougher boat to operate, but it definitely will be a more comfortable boat. I couldn't believe the difference from our GB36 to Volunteer from a comfort standpoint.. And it was not one bit harder to deal with.

HOLLYWOOD

 

[sunchaser]

GB 46 is my vote since it is a significant step up from the GB36 in seaworthiness and a lot less $ than the woefully outdated F55, Do not ask me why the F55 is outdated nor ask me what GB is even better than the F55.

Also, Golden Retrievers have a vote.

 

[Marin]

hollywood8118 wrote:
If you are going to do that kind of project... you are doing it because you like the project aspect of it....

...If you are going to dump that kind of money dump it into a boat you have some hope of getting at least some of your money back.

FWIW, the GB36 rebuild would not be a project for us.* It would be a total turnkey operation.* "Here's the boat,*we want it*back in a year with x-things done to it."

Good points all in your post, but remember, we got into this kind of boating without intending or*expecting to get any of the money we spend on boating back. In this respect, our boat is no different than my fly fishing gear.* So the money spent on rebuilding the GB36 or the money spent on an FL55 or GB46 would be "gone" money.* Hobby money. *So resale value does not factor at all into our decision.

It probably would in most other people's, however.* Hence the question--- would you fix up your current boat or spend the same amount of money toward a different boat?* The amount can be whatever it needs to be to fix up your own boat--- $10,000, $100,000, whatever.*

I'm interested in what you guys would do, not what you guys think we should do.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 11:25:08 PM

 

[Woodsong]

I'd fix up our Monk AND buy the fleming!

Obviously no point talking money- it makes no sense to rebuild the GB 36 from a $$$ standpoint. It really boils down, IMO, to what you all will enjoy and make you happy and further your enjoyment on the water. With just the 2 of you, a smaller boat is easy to handle, dock, clean, etc. Over 20 years of ownership, dockage difference alone could easily be $2-4K a year, call it $3k a year, so factor the dockage savings into keeping the GB36- it will certainly add up over the years!!! Many may say get the bigger boat just to get the bigger boat but that does not guaranty happiness. I am all about buying the boat that meets your needs- whether that is a 36 or a 55 or a 20. I genuinely love our little Monk 36 and even though on a practical standpoint, we really "need' more space with 2 kids and the dog and my wife and I....truth be told....I love that little Monk and would be 110% happy keeping her. If the GB36 meets your needs, allows you to cruise everywhere and how you want, you find yourself not needing more space, enjoy being aboard and owning her, and you don't need a large boat like the 55 or 46, I'd be inclined to say stick with your GB36. If it were just my wife and I we would be extremely happy with our Monk and would never think of getting another boat.
Sometimes there is more beauty in simplicity. But then again, the F55 sure is pretty too!

 

[Conrad]

"...we feel the GB36 is the ideal size for what we do and ever will do*with a boat."

If I felt that way about our present boat, I would go the update route, as then you can have exactly the boat you want, and you can look at it and say I/we created that. And you will know that everything was done right.*

You have lived with your boat long enough to know exactly what could be *improved whereas if you purchase a different boat you will slowly come to realize that it has some areas that could use tweaking.*

I would not do that with our present boat only because it is about 4-5 feet too short and needs a second stateroom to properly fit our cruising requirements.

A very good question Marin.

 

[Andy G]

It really depends on what you feel you are lacking in your present boat. For myself, I would like the boat to have a larger saloon,more room in the aft cabin, and enough power to handle a running sea with confidence.

In theory no matter how much money I throw at Sarawana, I can't change the dimensions of the interior, and I don't think the hull would be very happy with too much extra power.

To get what I want I would have to look for a different boat. However I would be very reluctant to do this because I am very happy with the 'old girl', and it has taken a while to really get to know her.

So it is better that I don't have the money in the first place to put the temptation there.It's like that that song 'Be careful what you wish for'.

 

[Tony B]

If I loved my boat that much and I had the money for Option 1, I would do exactly that.
I have done similarly in the past just not nowhere to that extent - mainly because of limited funds.

 

[CPseudonym]

I do not know you as well as your peers on this forum but the question to answer from my standpoint is would I wish to be without use of my boat for a year for the rebuilding process? You have stated repeatedly that you use your boat weekly. That would leave a lot of time for my new favorite hobby, boat shopping.

*

I completely agree with you on the point of "gone" money. That is the way I look at my upcoming purchase. Like a new pair of clubs, you kiss the money goodbye and don't look back.


Ultimately I would go with my heart, if I could do without my boat for a long term project, fine. Otherwise I'd sell it and move to another boat.

 

[Marin]

Woodsong wrote:
*Many may say get the bigger boat just to get the bigger boat but that does not guaranty happiness.

*A large part of my reason (my wife has different reasons) for currently leaning toward a complete rebuild of the GB36-- assuming this happens at all-- is that while we both lusted after the immaculate GB46s in the large local charter fleet that we have to walk past every time we go to our boat, after 13 years of owning out boat, I do not want to wash, polish, wax, or maintain the wood finish on one more inch of boat.* I don't want one more inch of deck or one more inch of handrail or caprail.* Because if we bought a different boat, we'd still do as much of the maintenance as we could.

On the other hand, all that room in the main cabin and galley of either the GB46 or the FL55 would sure be nice......

 

[Marin]

CPseudonym wrote:
I do not know you as well as your peers on this forum but the question to answer from my standpoint is would I wish to be without use of my boat for a year for the rebuilding process?**

Good question but we have so much stuff going on that not having the GB for a year would not be an issue.* Actually it could be a blessing if I don't*pick up the pace on my current writing project.* And it might not be a whole year anyway-- the very*rough estimates we've gotten from various yards have ranged widely in terms of*time.*

And we have another boat, an Arima fishing boat (on a trailer) that has kind of taken a back seat to the GB these past years.* We both love salmon and halibut*fishing on the Arima so not having the GB would give us a chance to use it more.

 

[CPseudonym]

"And we have another boat, an Arima fishing boat (on a trailer) that has kind of taken a back seat to the GB these past years.* We both love salmon and halibut*fishing on the Arima so not having the GB would give us a chance to use it more."

That softens the blow and adds to the equation.
"On the other hand, all that room in the main cabin and galley of either the GB46 or the FL55 would sure be nice......"
We have a saying with hot rods, there is no substitute for cubic inches... If money really has been removed from the equation several of the marinas I am considering have detailing services for reasonable rates.
"after 13 years of owning out boat, I do not want to wash, polish, wax, or maintain the wood finish on one more inch of boat.* I don't want one more inch of deck or one more inch of handrail or caprail."


The advice of a newbie, probably not worth .02*

 

[Peter B]

Marin wrote:"On the other hand, all that room in the main cabin and galley of either the GB46....but after 13 years of owning out boat, I do not want to wash, polish, wax, or maintain the wood finish on one more inch of boat.* I don't want one more inch of deck or one more inch of handrail or caprail."

*Marin, I think I know where you are coming from, as I have had those same thoughts, and my reply would be as follows....

If I only had enough money to really complete/re-do/replace/install what I don't have on Lotus now, but would like, then that's what I would do.* But if I came into enough money I could do much more than that, like virtually renew, which is what you are envisaging, then I'd definitely sell her and go new or near new and get the boat we would really like, but not go over the top.* Just a bit bigger, and all fibreglass - and yes - minimal exposed timber.* So I'm with you there, and many new boats are going that way anyway, including Fleming.* What I would not do is move away from the sedan/Europa style boat like we do have, because I just love that rear cockpit and larger saloon, and the indoor/outdoor lifestyle it allows.* But we would like the extra stateroom a larger, say 40 to 50 foot length would allow, and the increased cruise speed also.* But that's all.* Now I know you would like the Europa style too, because you have said so several times, and sadly, no matter how much you spend on the GB 36 aft cabin you have, that is one thing you can't change, and one thing I fear you would eternally regret not having got.

 

[timjet]

Well, here's my 2 cents worth. When I got divorced 15 years ago, I reluctantly lost my beloved 34' Irwin sailboat. I never thought I could replace her. It was just perfect, right size, fast, etc, etc. Well of course I did and found to my surprise it wasnt as perfect as I thought. That may be the mind set you're in right now, especially after 15 years of ownership. You fell in love with the boat, warts and all.*
Boats are never a good investment, heck theyre no investment at all, but some are better than others. Putting the money your talking about into an older boat will return very very little even though you say you don't care. But some day you'll want to get something out of this dismal investment and perhaps a wiser move would be to consider your other options. I didn't catch the age of the other boats you're considering, but I think you've advised several times on TF, buy the newest boat you can afford.
A larger boat especially for two people is really a matter of perception and perhaps to a lesser degree a matter of design. My somewhat newer '98 model boat was designed with the aid of CAD software and the results can be easily seen in space and working environment when compared to older boats. Though only 35 ft (40 ft hull) the living space for 2 is ample. But again that's my perception and others may not agree. Also, not one bit of exposed teak, yea.
Marin, you are probably one of the wises persons on TF. You'll make the right decision for you, and your wisdom shows by initiating this discussion.*


-- Edited by timjet on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 06:53:13 AM

 

[RickB]

I would not go for Option 1 unless I had the time and desire to be part of the refit or had the money to pay a very trusted "owner's representative" to live with the project until completion. Even then I would not let any part of it out of my sight for long and the level of involvement demanded will be far beyond what you may be willing to commit.

Never, never, turn that kind of project over to a yard or any contractor. Nothing good will come of it and while that is a fact it is not because yards or contractors are bad or crooked, it is because it is not their boat or their money (though a lot of yours will be theirs by the time it's all over) and they cannot possibly see your vision with any degree of clarity.

 

[timjet]

When you mentioned you want to just turn it over to the yard and come back a year later.......

I was kind of thinking what Rick just said. I think you would be badly disappointed.*

 

[sunchaser]

RE: What wouldou do?

RickBX2. I have a relative who is having a major refit done at possibly the best yard on the West Coast. His Captain is there 24/5 following and correcting. No way*you should*let the*GB 36*out of your sight. For that reason alone the GB46, if well found, is* my choice. Plus, bigger is better I've heard.

 

[Nomad Willy]

You're WAY too narrow minded Marin. Soo many boats and soo little time. Sell the 36 that you have said you do'nt like many times with the engines you almost hate and spend a year shopping. You'll have many wonderful adventures looking at many boats (my user name on another forum is "many boats"). But you'll need to open up some and get rid of some of that tunnel vision. In many ways you're really open minded but when it comes to boat brands and anchors you're not. If you really look (as in more than GBs) you will find lots of boats you have'nt even dreamed of. I have another suggestion but you said do;nt make it so I wo'nt. It's obvious though.

 

[Marin]

RickB wrote:


Never, never, turn that kind of project over to a yard or any contractor. Nothing good will come of it and while that is a fact it is not because yards or contractors are bad or crooked, it is because it is not their boat or their money (though a lot of yours will be theirs by the time it's all over) and they cannot possibly see your vision with any degree of clarity.

That's sound thinking, and when I said a turnkey project I did not mean that we would give them the boat and go away until it was done.* Regardless of which yards or companies did the work, we would be monitoring it on a very frequent basis.* My use of the word "turnkey" simply means we would not be doing any of the work ourselves.

The complete rebuild--- well, it's not a total rebuild, so maybe refit is the better word--- of the GB36 would be considerably less expensive than buying a different boat.* A contributor, albeit not a major one--- particularly in today's market--- to the price of the larger boat would be the sale of the GB36.*

Another factor would be whether or not to repower the GB.* As I have stated before, I am not a fan of the Ford Lehman 120 for a lot of reasons.* We would both prefer newer, quieter, cleaner, more efficient engines.* But..... the FL120s have only about 2500 hours on them at this point.* They run fine (today, who knows about tomorrow).* One option would be to keep them but sequester (invest) the funds to replace them should the need arise.

Contrary to what some have assumed, we are not in love with the GB36 (or any of the GB line, for that matter).* There are other boat configurations that we prefer, the Fleming being at the top of that list.* So we have no "special attachment" to our boat.* It's basically well made and is very well suited for the waters we cruise in or will be cruising in.* It's overall configuration has proven to work very wel for us over the last 13 years.* The devil's in the details--- the settee cushions are very un-ergonomic, for example. The forward head, as tiny as it is, could be reconfigured to make it more user-friendly. And so on.

So why put a ton of money into completely restoring it?* Because we also don't want to buy another owner's (or multiple owners') problems (again).* We know this boat inside and out now.* We know all the problems, potential problems, and deficiencies in the original fitting out at American Marine.* If we go and get a different boat we won't know any of this, but we won't have the funds to fix them outside of what we can do ourselves. So we'll be doing what we do now, which is fix or maintain stuff that comes up as best we can.

Not that things won't start to wear out the moment we start using the re-fitted GB36.* But, like a new car, we will at least be starting with a clean piece of paper.* And all those niggling problems that we have now and know how to fix but don't have the time or the tools or the skill to fix wil be gone.

Another factor was mentioned by an earlier poster.* A 36' boat is less expensive to moor and insure than a 55' boat.

PeterB mentioned the Europa as being a preferred configuration, with which both I and my wife agree.* You get that configuration automatically with the Fleming, which is by far and away our preference over the GB46 based on what we know right now about both boats.* However we have found in the last three years that there can be real advantages to having a tri-cabin, which is the main reason the GB46 is one of the two boats on our "different boat" list.* If the GB42 had been made with the same step-down aft cockpit as the original GB46s, it woud be on the list, too.* But if we chose Option 2, the Europa vs Tri-cabin is a decision we'll have to confront.* But we don't want to get ahead of ourselves.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 01:23:28 PM

 

[dvd]

At this point, the only reason I would trade out my 37 ft. trawler would be to get a boat with stabilizers. We do only coastal cruising, but that sometimes means 10-20 miles offshore for some lengthy (24 hrs.+) passages where having a stabilized boat would really add to the comfort. I don't have room for an active stabilizer system and I don't want to invest the $25K or so to engineer, build and install a paravane system. When I was in the Pacific Northwet I had paravanes on my 30 ft. Willard and it made a huge difference in comfort.

dvd

 

[Marin]

nomadwilly wrote:
You're WAY too narrow minded Marin. Soo many boats and soo little time. Sell the 36 that you have said you do'nt like many times with the engines you almost hate and spend a year shopping.

*Eric--- That is very sound advice but in our case it doesn't apply.* We have zero, zip, nada, no interest in boat shopping at this point.* You're absolutely correct, there are a bazillion boats out there that could suit as as well or better than what we have now or are contemplating buying if we chose to not refit the GB36.

But at this point we are only interested in using a boat, not looking for one.* I find no attraction or appeal whatseover in the thought of checking out boat after boat in search of something that will work for us.* I met a fellow at a party the other year who in casual conversation said he and his wife had a Harley-Davidson and they liked to take long road trips around the northwest with it.* Having some co-workers who are really into Harleys I started to ask him some questions about the different models figuring this would be something he enjoyed talking about.* He very politely stopped me and said that while he really enjoyed HIS Harley and what he and his wife did with it, he had no real interest in Harleys or in motorcycles in general.

I'm that guy with boats.

 

[skipperdude]

I love working on my boat but I wouldn't pay someone else to do it.

Unless*I absolutely could not do it myself.

To me labor is where the love is.

From Galaxy Quest. *By Saris, O'l lobster head

"A commander knows every bolt, every weld in his ship"

SD

 

[Conrad]

Selfishly speaking Marin, I hope that you do go the refit route for the following reasons:

1) It would be very interesting to follow along with the project, hearing your thoughts as you make each decision, perhaps seeing some photos of the improvements, and in general learning more about how things can be done properly.

2) When you are ready to sell, I want your boat!!!

 

[Marin]

skipperdude wrote:
I love working on my boat but I wouldn't pay someone else to do it.

I used to feel that way about a lot of things.* For example, with one exception when the engine burned a valve, I have done all the work on the Land Rover I bought new in 1973 from then to the present.* Up until about fifteen years ago I really enjoyed it.* But my priorities--- and the demands on my time--- have changed a lot in the last couple of decades and today, while I think fondly of all the work I've done on the LR and how much I enjoyed doing it, I dont' want to do it any more even though I have the tools, experience, and shop manual to do it.* There are a lot of things to do on the vehicle today, but instead of being eager to do them I run through all the steps it will take (since I know them all) and think, I've got more interesting things to do. But I still want the LR to run right (as well as all our other vehicles), so now I take it to a shop and say "do it."

The boat is the same way.* I actually enjoy working on the exterior wood--- I find it a very relaxing pasttime.* But the thought of rebuilding a toilet or adjusting the valves on the Lehmans--- I know how to do all that stuff.* I just don't want to devote the time to doing it anymore.* There are a zillion things that have become far more interesting to me than rebuilding a toilet or adjusting valves.* I still do these things because I'm cheap and don't want to spend $100 an hour for something I can do for "free" (unless I calculate the value of my time, which these days is getting a lot more valuable-- to me).

This is why turning over the boat to a bunch of competent people and having them do all the things I want to do but have no interest in doing anymore is so appealing.* I enjoy working on stuff when it's a new and interesting challenge.* Or if I just enjoy doing it, like maintaining the exterior wood.* But when the "new" or the "interesting challenge" isn't there anymore, I don't want to do it.* I want it done, but not by me.

 

[skipperdude]

I see your point. If I had the money.

Never did. Never will.

If you have the cash nothing wrong with a refit on a boat you love.

SD

 

[Bendit]

I understand completely where you are coming from. There is a lot to be said for "the devil you know" vs the little, and sometimes not so little, "discoveries" you will undoubtedly make with another vessel.

While we are very satisfied with Pioneer, especially all the commercial-grade*systems, it's this very quality that sometimes makes me hanker after something else. Pioneer will never be a "yacht". She was built to work, not look pretty and although* the*conversion added a bit of class,*her fishing vessel roots still show through.

At 53 ft, Pioneer is remarkably easy to handle even single-handed,*and for us*it's about the*ideal size.**However, I think the Fleming 55 is the closest thing to perfection afloat and, if I had the money....Pioneer would be gone!

 

[dwhatty]

Bendit wrote:*However, I think the Fleming 55 is the closest thing to perfection afloat and, if I had the money....Pioneer would be gone!

*:thumbsup: Me and mine too!


-- Edited by dwhatty on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 04:17:29 PM

 

[psneeld]

Maybe I missed it in a post but the basic question is...if the choice is rebuilding a 36 or going bigger (not 36 and newer) than what do you think you need the extra boat for???

If it's not seaworthyness or range or storage...then my vote is gut the 36 and make it the way you want because even the bigger GB and Flemming is far from perfect to most dcruisers who know A LOT MORE THAN THE MARKETING DEPTS OF BOAT MANUFACTURERS....with that out of my system....

If I had the money that it would take to make the quantum leap up...I woiuld have to ask why???? I know sometimes the answer is because I can...but that's the rich guy answer...not the smart guy answer. Every boat on the market...including new off the shelf 2Mil Nordhavens ect...need a lot of readjustment before I would call them home and the way I want them.

So if 36 feet can make you happy...esopecially if someone else does the work, makes it EXACTLY the way you have learned the boat you love should be...then I say do the makeover. I even contemplated (before I found a 40 footer that I wanted) was to make the fore cabin on a 36 the galley (get it out of the main cabin) complete with dishwasher and weasher/dryer. I always figured the price difference over a bigger boat would allow me to get motel/bed and breckfast rooms for cruising guests if I wanted them along that badly and still come out ahead than buying a bigger boat that didn't meet my high standards.

No boat ever returns your happiness...barely the money sometimes...so all the talk about resale is for people that are not seriously cruising or living aboar...their boats are about the same as riding lawnmowers in the big scheme of things.


-- Edited by psneeld on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 04:29:09 PM

 

[Forkliftt]

Marin
I would lean towards option 1. If an increased boating budget were to show up I would LOVE to take our boat to the right yard and have the mains, generator, fuel tanks, water tanks, portals, prop shafts and rudders removed. Go back in with new bilge paint, polish the diamondplate floorboards and new tanks. Build the Velvet Drives, clean, paint and detail the Lehmans and put all back in with new oil coolers.
New SS portals, new paint top and bottom, new electronics, new twin 16,000 btu AC units and splash, I'm done!!

 

[Marin]

psneeld wrote:
Maybe I missed it in a post but the basic question is...if the choice is rebuilding a 36 or going bigger (not 36 and newer) than what do you think you need the extra boat for???

*Very valid question.* Going bigger isn't a major criteria in our situation.*

The main reason the FL55 tops our list is we REALLY like FL55s.* We like the looks of them, we like their repuation (based on the FL55 owners we've talked to), and we like the configuration.* I have stated before that the pilothouse configuration is, in our opinions, the single best recreational boat configuration out there.* We also really like the Europa configuration. The FL55 gives us both.

The GB46 is on the list because of all the GB models ever made, from 32' to 66', the GB46 is the best of the bunch in our opinions in terms of cofiguration and appearance.* It can be had in a really intelligent galley-down configuration which my wife greatly prefers to a galley-up boat.* And since we've had a GB for all these years and have a high degree of*familiarity with them*we wanted to include a boat from that line as a potential candidate.

The GB36 meets our needs in terms of size and configuration.* That's not to say having more space, particularly in the main cabin, would not be a really nice thing.* Are we inconvenienced by not having the space?* Not really unless we have guests on board, but the few guests we will*take are people who have no problem with the "fiming Ben Hur in a phone booth" aspect of meal times and such.* So we do not suffer from the lack of space.* That's not to say that more space would not be nice.

Do we need a 55' or 46'*boat?* Nope.* Do we want with just the two of us amost all the time*to deal with manhandling a larger boat in a wind or current?* Not particularly.* And let's be honest-- as we get older*it will probably become less*easy to jump smartly to the dock and get a line around a bullrail and haul a boat in if necessary.* The bigger the boat the more effort can be required.* Of course there are thrusters to pin a boat against the dock if you have them.***And we see lots of older, slower people who manage larger boats like this just fine.* But it's something to consider.

So for us, it's not about a bigger vs smaller boat.* It's about what we have now made "perfect" vs a boat in a different configuration.