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Old 11-04-2011, 06:01 PM   #81
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What would you do?

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psneeld wrote:
but I'm also a Sea Tow guy with a single engine boat that rescues twin engine boats all the time.
*I'm curious about this.* Not debating singles vs twins but I'm*puzzled by*this specific comment.* Why are you finding yourself towing in twin engine boats with such frequency?

The only times I have ever heard about (on the radio or second hand) a twin-engine boat being hauled in by a tow service is in one instance the skipper had a medical emergency that prevented him from continuing to operate the boat and nobody else on board could, and running out of fuel (which happens a surprising amount up here on all sorts of boats).* Other than that, everyone I know or have heard about who had a precautionary engine shutdown (or*failure) in a twin has come home on the other engine.

So I'm curious why you tow so many twins home?* If they ran aground that can happen no matter how many engines one has.* If bad fuel in your area is often*the cause of both engines in a twin shutting down that's certainly a reason for a tow.*

But I'm curious why so many twin engine boat owers in your area are apparently unable to continue on their second engine if, in fact, they are losing only one engine.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 4th of November 2011 06:02:32 PM
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Old 11-04-2011, 06:12 PM   #82
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What would you do?

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psneeld wrote:
NEVER in the last ten years has a single put a boat in greater danger because it was a single...the skipper might have been at fault for being inexperienced...but in each and every case the single disablds was ONLY an inconvenience.*

I've had the same experience.* There's never been a situation where a second engine was anything more than a convenience and a second engine was never necessary to stay ungrounded or safe.
That's been YOUR experience, and as such it's valid for you.* However I could introduce you to several people up here I know personally, plus a few more I have*heard about,*who still have their boats because when one engine or set of running gear was disabled, they had the other engine or running gear to keep them off the rocks.* In one case the difference was between the boat sinking and getting to port and a Travelift.

And never say never--- it can be shaky ground.* There is a YouTube video taken here a few years ago of a sailboat that lost it's only engine and was blown onto the rocks on the south side of Lopez (I think) Island.* The footage was taken from the helicopter that pulled the crew off.* My guess is that they felt the loss of their one engine was a wee bit more than an inconvenience.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 4th of November 2011 06:15:23 PM
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Old 11-04-2011, 06:58 PM   #83
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RE: What would you do?

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Late to the party but, the two boats that you mention have a cost of operation WAY MORE than the 36.
You are absolutely correct and this has to be a major factor in our decision if we are put in the position to make one.* The money put into* refitting the GB36, while it would be well in excess of $100,000, perhaps closer to $200,000, particularly if the boat was re-engined, is a "one time" expenditure.* The operating cost of the boat would not change unless we put in new engines in which case the fuel cost might go down a wee bit but even then it would not be by enough to be any sort of consideration.

A lot of boaters overlook operating costs in their eagerness to get into boating or buy a different boat, and while we are well aware of this you are wise to point this out.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:55 AM   #84
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RE: What would you do?

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Marin wrote:
So here's an interesting dilema.* I'm not looking for suggestions for us, but using us as an example for the question.

*(and we are not considering any more so don't offer any suggestions :-) ). *

*

So here's the question to discuss.....* if the money became available*to completely rework your current boat, fix everything that needs fixing, replace everything that you'd like to replace-- be they big ticket items like engines or small ticket items like anchors---*would you do this?* Or would you put the same amount of money toward a different boat?

I guess this is a sort of "how much do you like your boat?" question.



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 11:08:42 PM
*My appologies but I was confused by the single verses twin debate. Returned to the original post and re-read it in light of the other information that was contributed. If I may be so bold as to edit out the parts that seem to confuse the issue.*

*

Marin wrote:

"Interestingly enough, we are both leaning toward the total rebuild of our existing boat.* The reasons are too numerous to list here, other than we feel the GB36 is the ideal size for what we do and ever will do*with a boat."

*

After reading the discourse of this thread and if the above statement was how*we*felt about our boat, re-fitting would be the only option on the table. Regardless of cost.
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:09 AM   #85
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What would you do?

Yes, coming back to the original question...upgrade or go newer/bigger..?* I was at the Gold Coast Marine Expo just this morning. I went on quite a few boats. The GB Aleutian 53 was a boat to die for in many ways, but I'd never get the use out of it to justify it. The Clipper 48 and 45 were also lovely boats, but really, still bigger than we need. The new Clipper 36, which is the new version of our 34 but stretched a wee bit, although has the island double, is still a bit too cramped, and no second stateroom, so not enough better than ours to change for. The Clipper 40 however is perfect. Sedan or Europa layout. Lovely covered aft cockpit. Large second stateroom. Comes with choice of single or twin. (Marin would like that) Not a pilothouse design, (Marin would not like that so much), but in every other way, just like baby bear's porridge for mine. Even if money was no object I doubt I would go bigger.

http://www.clippermotoryachts.com.au...s/heritage-40/


-- Edited by Peter B on Saturday 5th of November 2011 06:10:01 AM
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #86
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RE: What would you do?

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Marin wrote:charles wrote:
Late to the party but, the two boats that you mention have a cost of operation WAY MORE than the 36.
You are absolutely correct and this has to be a major factor in our decision if we are put in the position to make one.* The money put into* refitting the GB36, while it would be well in excess of $100,000, perhaps closer to $200,000, particularly if the boat was re-engined, is a "one time" expenditure.* The operating cost of the boat would not change unless we put in new engines in which case the fuel cost might go down a wee bit but even then it would not be by enough to be any sort of consideration.

A lot of boaters overlook operating costs in their eagerness to get into boating or buy a different boat, and while we are well aware of this you are wise to point this out.

*Although I don't know the specifics of your potential refit, I suspect that your maintenance costs would go down quite noticeably due to the improved reliability and efficiencies of modern systems. Even aside from new engines.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:12 PM   #87
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RE: What would you do?

The Clipper looks very nice. "Going bigger" can be quite a quandary unless you really need more room or decide to live aboard (which we have no interest in doing). In changing boats it's almost an automatic practice among boat buyers to go bigger. I assume this is because going the same size, or going smaller, seems "wrong." Why change boats if you're not going to get a bigger one?

The Fleming is one of our two alternatives to refitting our own boat not because it's 55' long but because we REALLY like Flemings. I don't know who drew Tony's lines--- it's basically a deFever design--- but to our way of thinking whoever did it got everything just right aesthetically. We think they even look better than the original deFevers that inspired it. But 55' is a lot of boat and a lot of operating cost-- moorage, insurance, etc. If Tony had made a 42' boat with the same lines and proportions as the 55, then the "refit or buy another boat question" would be simpler.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:17 PM   #88
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RE: What would you do?

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Conrad wrote:
*Although I don't know the specifics of your potential refit, I suspect that your maintenance costs would go down quite noticeably due to the improved reliability and efficiencies of modern systems. Even aside from new engines.

They would for awhile, you're right.* But as the owner of the 120' corporate yacht I was associated with for awhile told me in response to my question of was it more expensive to maintain his 1966 boat or the brand new 150-footer in the next slip, he said it was about the same.* His reason--- everything that's wearing out on an older boat is wearing out on a new one.* The only difference he said is that with a new boat you start out with everyhing new.* With an older boat, you start out somewhere in the middle of the "wearing out" process.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:00 PM   #89
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RE: What would you do?

If there was a GB person on the GB forum or elsewhere that has already done a "total refit" on a 36 GB it would be MUCH cheaper to just buy their boat if it was for sale. Ther'es lots of 36 GBs out there. The whole refit idea is going to be really very expensive because you'll sell the boat for less than half what you've got into it. You may loose $150000. or more. I think if you crunch the numbers enough you'll sell and buy. Too many people sink a ton of money in an old boat and leave the old engine and fuel tanks in place. We had a bad fuel tank so while we had the old engine out we just got a new one. But when we sell the boat it will hardly be worth any more than it was. A 70s 30' Willard is only worth so much. But I'm think'in a little like you and am about ready to totally stop looking at other boats and give Willy another 10 to $25K so who am I to advise you otherwise.*
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:28 PM   #90
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RE: What would you do?

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I think if you crunch the numbers enough you'll sell and buy. Too many people sink a ton of money in an old boat and leave the old engine and fuel tanks in place.
No, we wouldn't if we decide to stick with the GB36.* This is the whole point of this option.* Buying another boat means buying another set of problems to learn about and deal with.* But we know all the problems with our boat, so if we do a total refit we will know that everything that needs addressing will have been addressed.

The fuel tanks in our boat were brand new from the previous owner when we bought the boat.* So while we would most likely have the tanks removed along with everything else in the engine room, as long as they proved out to be sound there would be no reason to replace them.

If we do the refit, what to do about the engines is a question.* I don't like Lehmans, but ours have only 2500 hours or so on them.* So the decision would be do we have the engines pulled, totally cleaned up and repainted, and put back in with money set aside to replace them should it become necessary in the future, or do we pull the Lehmans and replace them with something new, the only really viable candidate being the 150 hp N/A Lugger if they still make that engine.

We're not interested in simply exchanging GB36s.* One big advantage of the boat we have now is it has a Howard Abbey hull, which by all accounts are the best fiberglass hulls ever used on a Grand Banks boat.* Abbey designed and made the original molds in 1973 and personally supervised and participated in the layup of every GB fiberglass hull from the outset to mid-1974 or thereabouts.

Fortunately none of this is anything we need to make decisions about now (or maybe ever).* But if the opportunity does in fact present itself to upgrade our boating one way or the other, we want to have thought about it as carefully and thoroughly as possible.
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:20 AM   #91
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RE: What would you do?

Marin, if I could afford to upgrade, to be honest, the main reasons I would get another boat would be....

1. To get a bit bigger, for better functionality, but not much bigger.

2. By far the main reason, to get newer. Ok, maybe newer still starts wearing out, but it takes longer, and frankly at times I get sick of there always being something that has to be done because it is old, and no longer working properly/looking good/as reliable as it should be. Like just today I have had to take my (thankfully able to be serviced and got working again) anchor winch, which never let us down - until now, down to re-install. One upside was while doing this I discovered why my hot water system was not heating. The circuit was plugged with crud, which I finally managed to clear by threading curtain wire through each side, then setting up a flushing system with hose and a few cunning temporary connections, and flushed it all over the side. Another problem solved, but in a newer boat it would have been unnecessary. To top that off, having not long ago re-painted the whole boat (the hull professionally re-sprayed with 2 pack), I have identified a possibly suspect patch in one cabin wall, which was not evident when I repainted, and may well mean a soft rotted patch which will require a section of the cabin wall to be cut out and replaced. Yes, with timber you can do it, but it costs, and one always fears it might become a 'can of worms' when you start a job like that. Oh, for a solid fibreglass superstructure, like the hull. Later models all are. Is the superstructure of your GB 36 fibreglass Marin, or just glass over ply? If the latter then that alone in my view, is a sound reason for not sinking a lot of money into a re-fit. Just sayin'....as they say....
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Old 11-06-2011, 06:50 AM   #92
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RE: What would you do?

Marin,* I think the bottom line is you guys have to decide if you want a bigger boat.

If you are serious about becoming an owner of one of Tony Flemings creations, than pouring more money into your GB beyond keeping her going is counterproductive.

Newer is better, as time passes improvements are made to any boat and good builders often incorporate owner suggestions in later models.

PassageMaker Oct 2006,* Has a good article to read--"Evolving a Dreamboat The Fleming 55"* It is all about the hull numbers and when certain improvements came into effect.

I think the retro fit would be full of expensive suprizes and the end result would be not much different than the begining.

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Old 11-06-2011, 07:46 AM   #93
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What would you do?

Write a couple of books, get the Fleming. Or some day you'll be sitting on your porch with your grand dogs telling them what you wished you had done....

-- Edited by Giggitoni on Sunday 6th of November 2011 01:51:36 PM
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:28 PM   #94
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RE: What would you do?

Marin

From personal experience of "trying" to perfect older items, boats, cars, buildings*and such... I also recomend you get a newer boat that is already*in GREAT condition at date of purchase.* Of course, there will be some items you may like to improve even above its Great condition.* That said; for many reasons, when we search to locate our Pacific cruiser in future years I believe it will be kept to 50' or just under.*

Good luck!*
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:02 AM   #95
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RE: What would you do?

Hi Marin

option 1 is what i have now, 42 gb europa but someone else did the real big ones, (motors, gearboxes, throughulls, strainers, aircons, switchboards,electronics,) and just about every piece of metal in or on the hull, all they left for me to do was the cosmetics which we completed last january . Lovely boat to cruise in ,Oh: didn't mention it's an 83 model, if your boat suits what you want it for then spend the money,they don't put pockets in schrouds?

Bob Moxham
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:35 AM   #96
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RE: What would you do?

option 1 is what i have now, 42 gb europa but someone else did the real big ones, (motors, gearboxes, throughulls, strainers, aircons, switchboards,electronics,) and just about every piece of metal in or on the hull

Interesting that a boat with a fairly good reputation like GB would require this amount of work to stay floating!
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:07 AM   #97
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RE: What would you do?

Fred, *I think "reputation" is in the minds of people much more than in the hulls of boats. Marin never says "In our boat we have da da da."*He always says "In our GB we .......". He never misses a chance to drop the name GB. He is proud of his boat and he's FAR from alone on this thread. Art thinks if God had a boat it would be a Tollycraft. Mark never misses a chance to post a picture of his boat and I'm basically the same. I think there's a much bigger difference in hull design than quality of build. And in their defense that's one of the wonderful things about owning a boat. They are such a thing of beauty and grace and as we get close to them we have a hard time (unconsciously of course) imagining one better so we tend to get a little proud but I suspect that most boats are created much more equal than we think. BMW's, Saabs, Cadillacs and Hondas are also viewed as quality vehicles too but hardly different from Kias, Fords, Volkswagens, Nissans and Chevrolets. I'm not saying an old 22' Fiberform is comparable to a late Ocean Alexander but I'll bet the're closer than you think and that's about the most extreme example I can think of. But the fact that the manufacturers drilled many hundreds of holes in the decks of their "quality" boats just because most everybody else did shows quality is'nt very deep and the're mostly all made of tickey tacky and they all look just the same. I just went too far but I could'nt resist.
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:25 AM   #98
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RE: What would you do?

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nomadwilly wrote:
Art thinks if God had a boat it would be a Tollycraft.
*****

You are quite correct Eric... We're all a bit screwy about our beloved boats.* That's why we call them all HER or SHE!* And, as so often is*said... Get Married to Them!
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:56 AM   #99
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RE: What would you do?

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nomadwilly wrote:
*Marin never says "In our boat we have da da da."*He always says "In our GB we .......". He never misses a chance to drop the name GB. He is proud of his boat and he's FAR from alone on this thread.
Eric--- GB is faster to type than b-o-a-t.* Also, if all you say is "boat" there will always be someone who asks "what kind of boat do you have?"* The real snobs are the ones who say "Grand Banks" every time :-)

Peter-- GBs have solid fiberglass hulls and superstructures.* The decks and cabin tops are fiberglass-marine ply-fiberglass sandwiches.* The cabin structure of a GB--- at least the older ones-- have wood framing attached to the inside of the fiberglass shell to hold the bulkheads, interior walls, to provide stiffening where needed, and so forth.* But they are not glassed-over plywood.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:33 PM   #100
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RE: What would you do?

Then you are lucky, and it probably is worth the re-fit. When I look at what Lotus has suffered over the yrs, the only issues not experienced on all boats just due to normal wear and tear are those related to the stupid screwing down of teak decks and making the core vulnerable, (fixed by the PO), and those pertaining to dry (damp) rot getting into the superstructure because the early cabins were just glass over (sometimes dodgy) ply. (Mostly fixed by the PO, but it looks like I'm going to inherit a re-do in one place at least).
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