What would make you walk after survey?

[ianonhercules]

Can you spell L_E_M_O_N?!! For a boat with only 550 hours on it there are a lot of things going wrong with it. Perhaps the reason it has so few hours on it is because it spent all its time in the "garage". Additionally, the broker is not your friend....they just want the sale. I believe you are right about the broker and the surveyor being in cohoots...certainly was in my case. I had over $20K of work to do after all was signed and sealed on my boat that should have been picked up by the surveyor. And he knew to the dollar how much I had offered, when I asked for a valuation! And it was a strange dollar amount that nobody could have guessed.
As has been said....there are plenty of boats out there...choose one with less obvious problems, because they all have problems, even the best of them.

Good luck,

Ian
Seattle

 

[Marin]

Extend the contract and tell them to make the boat right and have them pay for return flight expenses. If the balk, walk. My 2 cents

I think Craig's summary is right on the money. In addition to taking his advice, I would suggest that if the seller accepts these conditions, that you have the boat surveyed again by somebody thorough and competent. Not someone who tells you "Probably a simple fix."

And if it was me, I would use two surveyors, one for the hull and systems and one for the engine and generator. Most of the really good surveyors we've experienced specialize in "hull" or "engine" although that does not mean a hull surveyor is ignorant of engine issues or the other way round.

Given the vast number of boats that are always on the market at any given time, as sunchaser says, there are always lots and lots of choices. While logistics may preclude you from getting a boat from the other side of the country, Nordic Tugs are a dime a dozen out here (so to speak). Partly because they're made here, and largely because they are so suitable for our cruising grounds which stretch 1,000 miles from Puget Sound up through BC and SE Alaska.

Trucking a boat, particularly a smaller one without a flying bridge, is not a staggeringly expensive proposition. We had our GB36 trucked from California to Washington in 1998. The flying bridge did not have to be removed, and the cost then was $4,000 including the pilot car. I'm not implying that trucking a boat across the country would be cheap, but it might get you a better boat than you can obtain locally if you're after a very specific make and model.

Walking away from a boat that just doesn't feel right will most likely save you far, far more money than whatever you spent going to look at the boat and having it surveyed. And I would say never, ever judge a boat's condition by photos. Photos are great to show you the configuration and basic "look" of the interior, engine room, etc. But everything looks way better in a photo than in person, even people.

 

[pilothouse king]

I think Craig's summary is right on the money. In addition to taking his advice, I would suggest that if the seller accepts these conditions, that you have the boat surveyed again by somebody thorough and competent. Not someone who tells you "Probably a simple fix."
>>>>>

Given the vast number of boats that are always on the market at any given time>> But everything looks way better in a photo than in person, even people.

If you haven't checked the market lately, you might be surprised how slim the pickings now. Like the Real Estate market in South Florida, sales have SURGED. Many boats on Yachtworld are either sold, or deal pending. Why not post that fact you ask? Keeps their phone ringing is my guess.
Really not that much really good out there, and nobody is making any more used boats. What's built is built. The best boats on the East Coast have gone oversea's in the past 10 years. I look better in person! (so say's my wife who needs glasses I won't buy her!)

 

[Marin]

If you haven't checked the market lately, you might be surprised how slim the pickings now.

Perhaps it's a regional thing. Out here you trip over a "for sale" boat every time you turn around. As sunchaser said, there are a bunch of NTs for sale just in Anacortes alone.

 

[psneeld]

I'd be careful in overcomplicating your issues with the boat. Both the A/C and the Genset might be something simple that a filter change and sea strainer cleaning could fix those two.

Even the "grossly done thruhull" can be fixed for nothing and there might be a reason it wound up that way.

It is a used boat and if you can negotiate a price you can live with even making those repairs (and I would always want it that way than the PO doing it and maybe I'm not confident in the new repairs)..it may be a fair deal after all....

 

[Ski in NC]

I too would not freak out over these things. Give them a chance to fix issues, then hire a surveyor from maybe 20 miles away to do a quick check and make sure the issues are truly fixed. A surveyor from the next town is likely not in bed with the broker. Saves airfare.

Overpropped trawler?? Most of them are, anyway. No harm in it unless engine is run near the pins.

 

[Northern Spy]

If the OP hasn't done so already. SENTOA.org is where one can find Nordic Tugs for sale by owner (and broker).

 

[BandB]

Let's not be too quick to jump on the surveyor. The finished report hasn't yet been seen. I've known situations where surveyors were fairly gentle while doing the job but the report was a strongly negative one. Walking through no single thing was enough for them to say there's no need to even go further. But when compiling all the notes, they pointed to some very extensive problems.

 

[Mule]

Again...I find myself agreeing with PS.....sigh.... Get another survey, not a surveyor chosen by the broker/owner/possibly compromised "chooser". This guy did me solid, though there r many. Ed Rowe and Associates, Vero Beach 772-589-7346. He ain't my brother in law, kissin cousin or any connection but professionally I was impressed. The AC almost certainly is a March Pump, clogged strainer or in need of barnacle buster or an acid cooling water loop cleaning. Ed will tell you if you need an engine/mechanical survey. Then you can match up the surveys. I comment about the smell test, well it does have an aroma, b4 you pull the trigger find out. Or buy my Mainship. or what BandB said.

 

[Marlinmike]

Sandy Boat? New interior, electrical issues, just a thought.

 

[Edelweiss]

I agree with nearly all the posters here. . . Sounds like lot's of red flags and I can understand your concerns!! Keep in mind this brokerage is the "Seller" in this case and is "NOT" an independent broker who is trying to hook up a seller and a buyer to earn a commission.

A local surveyor is like everybody else in that boating community and they won't "bite the hand that feeds them", especially on a brokerage owned boat! Those that do, won't be on the brokerage surveyor referral list very long. Review the survey results, maybe have someone else look at it and do a walk through of the boat to see how thorough and objective the survey report was. If you're still not happy with the deal, walk away.

Lot's of used NT's for sale on my dock in Cap Santa Marina in Anacortes. Just saying!!

PS: The way the receipts were written, it sounds like the brokerage bought parts and had their knuckledragger install them. That may be a concern, without knowing his skill level??

 

[magicbus]

Looking online I did see a number in the PNW. Seems like shipping would be a bit less than from FL to CA but it got me wondering about standard equipment. I guess the OP might need AC if in SoCal, but do the PNW boats typically come with AC or diesel heat. I guess a heat pump would be ideal as ours are great. I was mostly wondering if an east coast boat might be different.

Dave

 

[Capt.Bill11]

I too would not freak out over these things. Give them a chance to fix issues, then hire a surveyor from maybe 20 miles away to do a quick check and make sure the issues are truly fixed. A surveyor from the next town is likely not in bed with the broker. Saves airfare.

.

By the way, where is this picture of the siliconed thru hull?

 

[Marin]

,...but do the PNW boats typically come with AC or diesel heat.

PNW boats don't come with either one unless the oriignal buyer specified it with the manufacturer. But most PNW cruisers have heat of some sort. But unless the boat was ordered new with it, it's almost always an add-on.

I've heard of a few boats here that had air conditioning, but it's very rare. Particularly in a boat that's going to stay in this area. Boaters with open-ocean boats that go or are going to go to SoCal or Mexico may have AC installed, however.

 

[Edelweiss]

Looking online I did see a number in the PNW. Seems like shipping would be a bit less than from FL to CA but it got me wondering about standard equipment. Dave

The NT's are built here in Burlington, Wa, so they are more likely to have a heat source than AC. I've never seen one with AC here, but I'm sure they are out there. Most likely an option or maybe dealer installed accessory.

 

[magicbus]

By the way, where is this picture of the siliconed thru hull?

The OP posted a series of shots back on page one. I think the last one was the thru hull.

Dave

 

[dhmeissner]

Sounds silly to buy a NT in FL and truck it to CA. Given the issues uncovered so far walk away. I once saved around 30K (estimated) by walking and it only cost me 800.

 

[Tunajoe]

Wow! what a great forum this is. A tremendous amount of helpful advice.
Thank you!

The code displayed by the AC should give a clue as to the extent of that issue.

It did have a code that I looked up. Low freon pressure. One month ago, the repair center "troubleshot it" for almost $1200 bucks. I'm not sure it's even wired correctly. A friend said an AC unit is fairly easy to replace. Can anyone with experience confirm this?

I think you are wise to exercise caution. There are often complex and longstanding relationships between brokers and surveyors, many financial in nature. Read your offer contract carefully. If it is standard Florida language, it says that immediately following vessel acceptance, the contract converts to an "as is" contract under Florida law. What does that mean? It means the seller, the broker, and the surveyor are absolved of any liability, even if they did not disclose the truth to you about the vessel. A good friend of mine was just burned when he purchased a vessel with leaking fuel tanks that the seller hid, and the surveyor did not find. As the admiral of our ship likes to say, "doubt means don't".

Captain Bob

Thanks Capt Bob
That's exactly what my contract reads.

Joe, I agree with the above poster, this is a great opportunity to reduce the price of the boat substantially. This is part of the game when you purchase any boat through a brokerage. Just remember, this is a business decision for you, don't fall in love with a boat before you own it. It's always easier to buy than it is to sell. I am curious about one thing, why are you looking to Florida for a boat? Nordic Tugs are built on the West Coast (walking distance from my marina) Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

What would you consider a decent reduction in price? I called today for a price on a new Onan gen and it retails for about $8400. Installation not included.
I've looked at every NT on YWorld. Most late models are out of my range financially. Most NW NT's don't have a generator and I find the NT's in the NW are more expensive.
The one in Florida is nice because it's low hours, has a generator, has great electronics (14" MFD), isn't cut-up by the PO, and has most of the options I wanted from the factory. Also the price was very good.

What Dave said.

 

[Tunajoe]

By the way, where is this picture of the siliconed thru hull?

I had the Moderator take the pictures down till I get my deposit back.

PNW boats don't come with either one unless the oriignal buyer specified it with the manufacturer. But most PNW cruisers have heat of some sort. But unless the boat was ordered new with it, it's almost always an add-on.

I've heard of a few boats here that had air conditioning, but it's very rare. Particularly in a boat that's going to stay in this area. Boaters with open-ocean boats that go or are going to go to SoCal or Mexico may have AC installed, however.

The boat came with everything set up by the factory for aftermarket AC units. Ductwork, plenum, vents, and wiring. It was an option NT offers.
The boat also has the factory HeaterCraft heater which worked great.

Sounds silly to buy a NT in FL and truck it to CA. Given the issues uncovered so far walk away. I once saved around 30K (estimated) by walking and it only cost me 800.

Why is it silly? I've owned 5 boats and all but one of them were shipped from the East coast. We just don't have the same volume of quality boats out here in California plus you can save some serious money.

 

[Tunajoe]

I sent the rejection of vessel letter today.
I'll be curious to see if they come back to me with some sort of offer.
I also received all the survey reports from the Diesel surveyor and the general surveyor.
The Diesel Survey report said the generator ran for 10 minutes and then when attempting to load test it died.

 

[Marin]

Most NW NT's don't have a generator and I find the NT's in the NW are more expensive.

Don't know about the generator bit, but one reason Nordic Tugs tend to be more expensive in the PNW is because the good cruising grounds here make them more in demand.

It's one reason when we were shopping for our own boat our broker looked in California, too. Given the same make, model, and condition, boats were many thousands less in California because the cruising opportunities are not as varied and plentiful so there was a lower demand for the type of boat we wanted.

I have no idea what it costs to truck a boat across the US compared to down from the PNW. Be interesting to know if the cross-country trucking cost would equal the increase in purchase cost and considerably lower trucking cost for a boat from the PNW.

I may be totally off base with my observation, but it seems like more and more boats are going up for sale as the baby boomers start to get up in years where dealing with a boat becomes too much of a hassle or effort. The point being that while there may not be the kind of boat you want on the market right now today, the chances seem to be getting better that there will be one in the not-too-distant future.

There are a couple of ways to deal with the no-generator issue on a boat. One is to buy a diesel unit and have it installed. The other is to do what Al suggested in another thread and buy a portable Honda generator. Yes, you have to find a safe place to keep it and its fuel. But it can get you the generating capacigty you need for a fraction of the price of an installed diesel unit. And the newer generations of Hondas are very quiet.

Another advantage of the portable unit is that you don't crowd up your engine room, which in a 32 foot boat is going to be pretty crowded as it is, even with just one engine.

 

[Lollygag]

Make a take it or leave it counteroffer for $5K or so less and head to Anacortes. If they accept you'll need a place to launch. If they refuse you'll be at the NordicTug mother ship. Like Nordstroms for boats.

 

[CPseudonym]

Pulling out is wise if it doesn't feel right. After all, it's just a boat. Not like there's a shortage of them out there. I respect that your previous boats where east coast purchased but as boats get larger shipping prices increase along with out of pocket costs associated with shipping. I fought the urge tooth and nail to buy a wrong coast boat, temptation is a strong thing though.

Good luck in your quest.

 

[BruceK]

Tunajoe, they messed you around, they know that, you should assume they may know the survey reports(they should not), now see if they come back. Was the mech surveyor any more help than "genset died after 10 minutes"? No diagnosis at all?
If they come back and make sense on a deal, depending what you think of the Reports you now have (not a lot, you are walking), start with a fresh survey. Ask for help here with surveyor recommendations, you are sure to get them.

 

[Tunajoe]

Don't know about the generator bit, but one reason Nordic Tugs tend to be more expensive in the PNW is because the good cruising grounds here make them more in demand.

It's one reason when we were shopping for our own boat our broker looked in California, too. Given the same make, model, and condition, boats were many thousands less in California because the cruising opportunities are not as varied and plentiful so there was a lower demand for the type of boat we wanted.

I have no idea what it costs to truck a boat across the US compared to down from the PNW. Be interesting to know if the cross-country trucking cost would equal the increase in purchase cost and considerably lower trucking cost for a boat from the PNW.

I may be totally off base with my observation, but it seems like more and more boats are going up for sale as the baby boomers start to get up in years where dealing with a boat becomes too much of a hassle or effort. The point being that while there may not be the kind of boat you want on the market right now today, the chances seem to be getting better that there will be one in the not-too-distant future.

There are a couple of ways to deal with the no-generator issue on a boat. One is to buy a diesel unit and have it installed. The other is to do what Al suggested in another thread and buy a portable Honda generator. Yes, you have to find a safe place to keep it and its fuel. But it can get you the generating capacigty you need for a fraction of the price of an installed diesel unit. And the newer generations of Hondas are very quiet.

Another advantage of the portable unit is that you don't crowd up your engine room, which in a 32 foot boat is going to be pretty crowded as it is, even with just one engine.

The bids to ship from South Florida to Ventura, CA ranged from $10,000 to $11,000.

Wise words Marin regarding whats available now vs the future. The wife and I really fell in love with this particular boat, but realize there are more of them out there. And if you wait around long enough, another good one will pop up.

I've owned a boat without a generator and did the Honda 2KW portable thing. It worked great.
I just feel if I'm going to pay this much money for a boat, it should come with a generator. Maybe it's not really necessary?

 

[CPseudonym]

A lot of boats in this class function just fine with no generator. However if AC is considered "mandatory" so is a generator.

 

[pilothouse king]

Sent you a pm.

 

[Tunajoe]

Make a take it or leave it counteroffer for $5K or so less and head to Anacortes. If they accept you'll need a place to launch. If they refuse you'll be at the NordicTug mother ship. Like Nordstroms for boats.

Ha! I was going to tell them to knock 10 Grand off the price and I'll take it "as is". That was before I got the price for a new generator!

Pulling out is wise if it doesn't feel right. After all, it's just a boat. Not like there's a shortage of them out there. I respect that your previous boats where east coast purchased but as boats get larger shipping prices increase along with out of pocket costs associated with shipping. I fought the urge tooth and nail to buy a wrong coast boat, temptation is a strong thing though.

Good luck in your quest.

Temptation is strong, isn't it!
It's funny, On the flight over to Florida, I told myself if the boat checks out I'm buying it. I also told myself, if one problem arises with any of the major systems, I walk.
I was actually relieved when the AC and the gennie didn't work.
It was my "out" while saving face.
I sure was dazzled by how great the boat looked though. Like it had never been used.
Weird, but I'm relieved, yet bummed

Tunajoe, they messed you around, they know that, you should assume they may know the survey reports(they should not), now see if they come back. Was the mech surveyor any more help than "genset died after 10 minutes"? No diagnosis at all?
If they come back and make sense on a deal, depending what you think of the Reports you now have (not a lot, you are walking), start with a fresh survey. Ask for help here with surveyor recommendations, you are sure to get them.

Bruce, the diesel guy was going to send it to the broker and I told him absolutely not.
The other general surveyor was a good guy, and you could tell he had surveyed many boats. But maybe I'm just a detailed oriented guy and he's not.
Maybe the heat/humidity was getting to him.
I spent the afternoon pointing quite a few things out, including the leaky toilet, lack of sealant around the wire intrusions, the badly sealed thru hull ( on both sides of the boat), I had to insist on him bringing a moisture meter.
He did discover a few things, none that were deal breakers though.
I noticed when I lifted the outside rear storage locker that the spring lift was broken. I didn't say anything so I could see if it would come up on the report. It didn't.

 

[Marin]

I just feel if I'm going to pay this much money for a boat, it should come with a generator. Maybe it's not really necessary?

Well, you'll pay however much less if it doesn't have a generator and however much more if it does. It's been my observation that the price of a boat (or a car or....) varies with the equipment it comes with.

As to whether you need one or not...

The Grand Banks we chartered before buying our own had an inverter but no generator. We rarely used the inverter and didn't miss the generator. The much older Grand Banks we bought has a generator of the same vintage as the boat-- an Onan 7.5kw MDJE- which is way over-kill for our boat but it's what they used back then.

Having had this boat for 16 years now, I have to say that we are very happy that it has a generator even though it's cost us a few thousand in repairs over the years. We use it to heat water and throw a charge back into the batteries during a cruise on the days we don't go anywhere on the main engines. Our galley is propane, so we only have need to run the generator for an hour or so on the days we use it.

It makes for a more crowded engine room, what with two propulsion diesels down there, too, but so far the lack of space has not been an issue. The previous owner replaced all the fuel tanks and the new arrangement gave more space in the engine room than had been there previously, so that's helpful.

So I would say that a generator is on the "must have" list if we were to go shopping for a used boat to replace this one. We certainly wouldn't need one as powerful as we have now. A nice little 5kw Northern Lights unit would be ideal. But we would still want a propane galley and we have no need of air conditioning up here.

If you do want air conditioning then I would think a generator of some sort would be pretty essential unless you anticipate always being on a dock with ground power wherever you go.

 

[bligh]

Not sure if it helps, but the scuttlebutt from some of the NT sellers the SFbay area is they are pretty frustrated that they cant sell their boats. Any offers, no matter how low, on boats up here in the bay area would be carefully considered , I'm sure.

I read on the NT message board that one seller hasnt even had anyone look at his 32 since he put it up for sale!