Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-04-2014, 03:48 PM   #121
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
More pitch tries to move more water but may just increase slip if the speed through the water is too slow.
__________________
Advertisement

bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 04:02 PM   #122
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post

Rick is very busy these days with his own company and the exhaust emissions product he makes and sells to the mega-yacht folks.
Well I hope he hurries back. We could use a bit more skin thickening.
__________________

Northern Spy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 04:22 PM   #123
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Rick is very busy these days with his own company and the exhaust emissions product he makes and sells to the mega-yacht folks.
Tell him Hi from me and I'll try and see him this winter.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 06:01 PM   #124
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Rick is very busy these days with his own company and the exhaust emissions product he makes and sells to the mega-yacht folks.
Very impressive product too and while it might start in mega yachts it will find it's way down at some time.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 07:54 PM   #125
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
Greetings,
Well to answer the original question "What would make you walk after a survey". If the broker poured a bucket of ice cubes down my pants, THAT would certainly end the negotiations.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 09:06 PM   #126
Senior Member
 
magicbus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Well to answer the original question "What would make you walk after a survey". If the broker poured a bucket of ice cubes down my pants, THAT would certainly end the negotiation
wow ... Talk about a low threshold...

Dave
__________________
Barnegat Light NJ or Nantucket MA
magicbus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 09:38 PM   #127
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
I think people that shop the bargain basement boats need to adjust their expectations accordingly. There is no free lunch.
I believe you nailed it Kevin, especially when the OP is concerned about the $25 to join boatdiesel.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 09:41 PM   #128
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Well to answer the original question "What would make you walk after a survey". If the broker poured a bucket of ice cubes down my pants, THAT would certainly end the negotiations.
[/IMG]
Ice cubes I could handle. Hot coffee would end the negotiations and unless he can run very fast might end more than that.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 10:55 PM   #129
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,872
''''I've been to Boatdiesel.com but it appears that you have to pay money to join?''''

Yup, you do, $25.00. One of the best $25 you will spend even if you let it lapse the next year. If you spend a little time and read the Articles section and some of the threads you will learn a lot. Lots of worthwhile info.

You can also go Seaboard Marine and read a lot of info there. Posted courtesy of Tony Athens who has put up a huge amount of info for us ALL to make use of if you will avail yourself of it. Applicable , almost all of it, to ALL engines.
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2014, 11:35 PM   #130
Senior Member
 
Tunajoe's Avatar
 
City: Ventura
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tatanka
Vessel Model: 32' Nordic Tug
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 216
"Originally Posted by ksanders
I think people that shop the bargain basement boats need to adjust their expectations accordingly. There is no free lunch."


Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
I believe you nailed it Kevin, especially when the OP is concerned about the $25 to join boatdiesel.

Interesting.
Since when is almost $190,000 for a 32' 10 year old boat a "bargain basement boat"?
You guys must roll with a different crowd than I do.
The truth is the PNW guys are awfully proud of their boats. And they price them accordingly. What's wrong with looking for the best price possible in a boat?
I'm not accustomed to paying more than I have to.....for anything. Are you?

I've never paid to join a forum. That's why I was asking. I'm not sure why you think I'm "concerned" about the $25.

I perused Tony Athens website. His shop is very close to where I live.
Tunajoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 12:03 AM   #131
Guru
 
bligh's Avatar
 
City: Santa Cruz, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Frisky
Vessel Model: 99 Nordic Tug
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunajoe View Post
"Originally Posted by ksanders
I think people that shop the bargain basement boats need to adjust their expectations accordingly. There is no free lunch."





Interesting.
Since when is almost $190,000 for a 32' 10 year old boat a "bargain basement boat"?
You guys must roll with a different crowd than I do.
The truth is the PNW guys are awfully proud of their boats. And they price them accordingly. What's wrong with looking for the best price possible in a boat?
I'm not accustomed to paying more than I have to.....for anything. Are you?

I've never paid to join a forum. That's why I was asking. I'm not sure why you think I'm "concerned" about the $25.

I perused Tony Athens website. His shop is very close to where I live.
I do a lot of my own maintenance. The 25 buck i have spent there has saved me bunches of time and money. There are literally hundreds of members there that have the same 6bta as i do and who all work on their engines to some extent. It has become a great resource for me personally. I can safeley say that spending 25 dollars there paid for itself within the first few days of membership.
For the RPM issue, I think that everyone here has you covered pretty well. Im not sure if you mentioned the state of the fresh water tank, but 5 men and full fuel tanks is a pretty heavy boat. I'm also not sure if the genny was counted against the weight of that sea trial either.
I would also add that buying parts from them (seaboard marine) has saved me major headaches and hundreds of dollars on parts (vs local shops, west marine, etc). For example, I sent an email to seaboard on monday asking for a part. I only gave them the brand and serial number of the generator and I received an email later the same day that they had shipped it out to me. How's that for service?
bligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 12:14 AM   #132
Senior Member
 
Tunajoe's Avatar
 
City: Ventura
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tatanka
Vessel Model: 32' Nordic Tug
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 216
Thank you Bligh.
I have no problems with the $25 bucks. When I get a boat, I'll definitely join.

I'm pretty lucky. I have a family in my practice where the father is an excellent marine diesel mechanic as is his 3 sons. One of the sons works for Tony.
In fact, I called the son and asked him about the generator problem. He gave me his insight, and I've adjusted my proposal accordingly.

I gave the father the engine serial numbers so he could run them and see if there was any warranty work done on the engine. It came back clean.
Tunajoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 12:38 AM   #133
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunajoe View Post
Thank you Bligh.
I have no problems with the $25 bucks. When I get a boat, I'll definitely join.

I'm pretty lucky. I have a family in my practice where the father is an excellent marine diesel mechanic as is his 3 sons. One of the sons works for Tony.
In fact, I called the son and asked him about the generator problem. He gave me his insight, and I've adjusted my proposal accordingly.

I gave the father the engine serial numbers so he could run them and see if there was any warranty work done on the engine. It came back clean.
I still don't understand why Fort Lauderdale then. There is a 2004 model in Anacortes for $199,000 and another for $229,000. A 2006 in San Francisco for $239,000. Have you looked at those, considered the shipping costs, discussed whether there was flexibility in the price?

As to bargain basement, you're the one who made it sound like this boat was well below the west coast market.

You're adjusting your proposal based on what someone on the west coast who has never seen it has said?

What does that tell you that there was no warranty work years ago? Is that good or bad?

I'll admit you're confusing me as not long ago you were walking away from it and now you're talking about a proposal. And to my knowledge you still have no idea what is wrong with it.

Boat Diesel was suggested to you for information to help with the buying decision and at first you objected to it charging $25. Now you say you will join if you get a boat.

Your instinct was uncomfortable with this boat. Has anything changed that. There was never anything concrete to say to turn away so I just figured it was instinct and, if so, that's fine.

I've posted confusing threads before so certainly understand but I really don't know your thoughts at this point nor what we've said that changed them.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 01:58 AM   #134
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunajoe View Post
Is failed WOT the same as not achieving specified full load RPM?
I ask because when I reviewed the engine survey the Cummings specified RPM of 2600 was not met. The boat was only able to reach 2500RPM at full throttle (measured at the flywheel with tachometer)
I'm curious what that means and if it's something to be concerned about.
I would not sweat 100 rpm short of max.
Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 10:27 AM   #135
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunajoe View Post
"Originally Posted by ksanders
I think people that shop the bargain basement boats need to adjust their expectations accordingly. There is no free lunch."





Interesting.
Since when is almost $190,000 for a 32' 10 year old boat a "bargain basement boat"?
You guys must roll with a different crowd than I do.
The truth is the PNW guys are awfully proud of their boats. And they price them accordingly. What's wrong with looking for the best price possible in a boat?
I'm not accustomed to paying more than I have to.....for anything. Are you?

I've never paid to join a forum. That's why I was asking. I'm not sure why you think I'm "concerned" about the $25.

I perused Tony Athens website. His shop is very close to where I live.
Joe

There are reasons why you had issues with this boat, and I'm trying to help you here because if you continue on this same track you'll have issues with any used boat you try to buy.

First issue... is that you are making offers based on photos and broker comments. You are buying sight unseen.That is a real problem. You need real unbiased eyes on the boat. You need to either go see the boat yourself, or you need to hire someone to go look at it for you, prior to making a offer. Hint, you can hire a surveyor to "look over" a prospective boat for a couple hundred.

Second issue... Once you've spent good money on a survey, you are using that survey as a pass/fail tool when in reality the survey is a snapshot of the boat good and bad. Nothing on a boat is unfixable but you choose to not even try. This means you are throwing your survey money away. I believe that part of this issue points right back to the first issue. You arrive on a boat you've never seen before and you are disappointed at first sight. You use the survey as a confirmation of your disappointment and you walk.

You will learn that seeing with your own eyes, or having someone you pay photograph what they dont like about a particular boat will allow you to buy a boat that you'll be initially happy with. Then you will tend to negotiate on survey issues.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 11:47 AM   #136
Guru
 
pilothouse king's Avatar


 
City: St. Lucie VILLAGE -NOT- Port St. Lucie!!!!!
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 15' Hobie Power Skiff w/90hp Yamaha-owned 28 years. Also a 2001 Bayliner 3788 that I took in trade
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 533
He went to the boat. It was a typical hot as hell, humid day and the air conditioning wasn't working. That alone is enough to walk away. It's just endemic of what else might not be properly prepared.
This whole thing is like airing dirty laundry in public-too many people making wild speculations of what they think they see. His money, his sweat, his prerogative.
__________________
.
Blake Davis Yacht Brokerage Inc

Yacht Broker/Owner since 1984, Florida License #32
pilothouse king is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 12:35 PM   #137
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilothouse king View Post
This whole thing is like airing dirty laundry in public-too many people making wild speculations of what they think they see. His money, his sweat, his prerogative.
Must keep in mind that he was the one who chose to air it in public and to ask for other's opinions. This wasn't a case of him mentioning something and others jumping on. The thread title is "What would make you walk after survey?"
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 12:37 PM   #138
Senior Member
 
Tunajoe's Avatar
 
City: Ventura
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tatanka
Vessel Model: 32' Nordic Tug
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I still don't understand why Fort Lauderdale then. There is a 2004 model in Anacortes for $199,000 and another for $229,000. A 2006 in San Francisco for $239,000. Have you looked at those, considered the shipping costs, discussed whether there was flexibility in the price?

As to bargain basement, you're the one who made it sound like this boat was well below the west coast market.

You're adjusting your proposal based on what someone on the west coast who has never seen it has said?

What does that tell you that there was no warranty work years ago? Is that good or bad?

I'll admit you're confusing me as not long ago you were walking away from it and now you're talking about a proposal. And to my knowledge you still have no idea what is wrong with it.

Boat Diesel was suggested to you for information to help with the buying decision and at first you objected to it charging $25. Now you say you will join if you get a boat.

Your instinct was uncomfortable with this boat. Has anything changed that. There was never anything concrete to say to turn away so I just figured it was instinct and, if so, that's fine.

I've posted confusing threads before so certainly understand but I really don't know your thoughts at this point nor what we've said that changed them.
I've looked at every NT on YW.....3 times. Most of the PNW boats don't have a generator. That was one of my main requirements. Maybe I'll re calibrate my requirements. I'd like a generator though.
The other thing driving what boat I'm looking at is what options came on the boat. You can call NT and get the build sheet on whatever boat you are looking at. It tells what options came on the boat.
I'd like SS portholes vs the black plastic ones, I'd like upgraded electronics. I want low hours. I don't want a pullman style berth. I want the ivory powder coated windows and doors. Not the black framed ones.
With kids, I have to have a transom hot water shower to hose them off.
I also don't want a "cut-up" boat. I want a boat that has minimal penetrations thru the sundeck or pilot house roof.

The 2004 model you mentioned is a clean, low hour boat. But no gennie, no transom shower, and no SS portholes. I didnt like the boom they installed on the sundeck roof.

The offer they accepted in Florida was/is below most prices on the West coast and nationwide.
I was able to gain access to soldboats.com and the average sold price of 2004 NT 32 for the last 2 years was approx. $190ish. I know some of you don't think the info is accurate on SB.com but it was good info to have when researching boats. These boats appeared to depreciate approximately 10K a year. If you know they are going to depreciate, why not shop around for the best price possible, as long as the boat meets your criteria?

I received some great advice thru a PM from Pilothouse King regarding a counter proposal. After speaking to my patient who works at Tony Athens shop and a buddy of mine who has a NT32, I submitted a counter offer based on the survey findings. If they take it, great. If not, I'll not lose sleep over it.

I'd say if the Cummings has no warranty work done, to me, that's a good thing.

As far as what's wrong with the boat, the generator started, ran for a few minutes, then died. I'm taking a chance on it being something major, but my counter price reflects this.
I know what a new AC unit costs. My counter reflects a price allowance for a new one.

Where did you see me object to the $25 for boat diesel.com?
I simply asked if you have to pay.

Lastly, If you read some of my posts. I said I loved the boat, but what made me walk away was the credibility issue I had with the broker. plus some other things indirectly related to the boat.
I spoke to the broker yesterday and he apologized profusely for how the survey went down. Unsolicited, he explained some of the things I had questions about in my mind. He offered to pay for another surveyor of my choosing to confirm any work done if the deal goes thru. He offered to pay for a few other things, that really didn't bother me. Ha also said he was embarrassed that the AC and generator didn't work as he ran the boat 2 days earlier and everything worked fine.
As I said earlier, he's a good man, and I appreciated his candidness.
Tunajoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 12:58 PM   #139
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunajoe View Post
I've looked at every NT on YW.....3 times. Most of the PNW boats don't have a generator. That was one of my main requirements. Maybe I'll re calibrate my requirements. I'd like a generator though.
The other thing driving what boat I'm looking at is what options came on the boat. You can call NT and get the build sheet on whatever boat you are looking at. It tells what options came on the boat.
I'd like SS portholes vs the black plastic ones, I'd like upgraded electronics. I want low hours. I don't want a pullman style berth. I want the ivory powder coated windows and doors. Not the black framed ones.
With kids, I have to have a transom hot water shower to hose them off.
I also don't want a "cut-up" boat. I want a boat that has minimal penetrations thru the sundeck or pilot house roof.

The 2004 model you mentioned is a clean, low hour boat. But no gennie, no transom shower, and no SS portholes. I didnt like the boom they installed on the sundeck roof.

The offer they accepted in Florida was/is below most prices on the West coast and nationwide.
I was able to gain access to soldboats.com and the average sold price of 2004 NT 32 for the last 2 years was approx. $190ish. I know some of you don't think the info is accurate on SB.com but it was good info to have when researching boats. These boats appeared to depreciate approximately 10K a year. If you know they are going to depreciate, why not shop around for the best price possible, as long as the boat meets your criteria?

I received some great advice thru a PM from Pilothouse King regarding a counter proposal. After speaking to my patient who works at Tony Athens shop and a buddy of mine who has a NT32, I submitted a counter offer based on the survey findings. If they take it, great. If not, I'll not lose sleep over it.

I'd say if the Cummings has no warranty work done, to me, that's a good thing.

As far as what's wrong with the boat, the generator started, ran for a few minutes, then died. I'm taking a chance on it being something major, but my counter price reflects this.
I know what a new AC unit costs. My counter reflects a price allowance for a new one.

Where did you see me object to the $25 for boat diesel.com?
I simply asked if you have to pay.

Lastly, If you read some of my posts. I said I loved the boat, but what made me walk away was the credibility issue I had with the broker. plus some other things indirectly related to the boat.
I spoke to the broker yesterday and he apologized profusely for how the survey went down. Unsolicited, he explained some of the things I had questions about in my mind. He offered to pay for another surveyor of my choosing to confirm any work done if the deal goes thru. He offered to pay for a few other things, that really didn't bother me. Ha also said he was embarrassed that the AC and generator didn't work as he ran the boat 2 days earlier and everything worked fine.
As I said earlier, he's a good man, and I appreciated his candidness.
Maybe you're getting a bit more on target then. I think you expected in some ways too much of each of the boats you looked at. They're ten years old and have some flaws. Some will not have features others have. Generator not working or not having one is easily remedied for a price. Some of the other things might be as well. In one of the PNW boats if it was really clean and in good condition, you might have just said, it's going to cost me x for this and y for this so this amount is all I can offer.

I don't know the nature of the offer you're making now. Seems hard when you don't know the problems. How did everything else check out? How was the sea trial? Not just the rpm, how did you like the way it rode and handled? How was the oil analysis? Did the hull check out well, no water anywhere, no other problems? To me, engines and hull are the most likely deal breakers. Other things are broke and can be fixed and it's a matter of figuring out who fixes them and what it costs. On a boat like that I would anticipate 10%, $20,000, needing to be spent just as a general rule. Even those that are "pristine" are often found not to be quite so. First storm you find water your berth. Two weeks later you find a lot of sludge in a fuel tank.

I hope the boat works out for you and you enjoy it. It's tough when we build up long distance expectations and then we arrive and they're not met.

Wifey B: It's like finding your perfect match on harmony.com and flying across the country only to find out the photo is 40 pounds and 5 years ago. Your temptation is just to say "Bye" and get on the next plane back home.

But then you decide you're there so at least go through with the date. You find over dinner she is everything you thought she was and she's embarrassed over the picture thing, asks you to forgive her, even says maybe this is the kick she needs to lose. The more time you're with her the more you realize she's so beautiful and what hit you at first just doesn't matter to you anymore. Then you get married and live happily ever after.

Just don't get your boat pregnant.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2014, 01:12 PM   #140
Senior Member
 
Tunajoe's Avatar
 
City: Ventura
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tatanka
Vessel Model: 32' Nordic Tug
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Joe

There are reasons why you had issues with this boat, and I'm trying to help you here because if you continue on this same track you'll have issues with any used boat you try to buy.

First issue... is that you are making offers based on photos and broker comments. You are buying sight unseen.That is a real problem. You need real unbiased eyes on the boat. You need to either go see the boat yourself, or you need to hire someone to go look at it for you, prior to making a offer. Hint, you can hire a surveyor to "look over" a prospective boat for a couple hundred.

Second issue... Once you've spent good money on a survey, you are using that survey as a pass/fail tool when in reality the survey is a snapshot of the boat good and bad. Nothing on a boat is unfixable but you choose to not even try. This means you are throwing your survey money away. I believe that part of this issue points right back to the first issue. You arrive on a boat you've never seen before and you are disappointed at first sight. You use the survey as a confirmation of your disappointment and you walk.

You will learn that seeing with your own eyes, or having someone you pay photograph what they dont like about a particular boat will allow you to buy a boat that you'll be initially happy with. Then you will tend to negotiate on survey issues.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Point taken about making an offer based on pictures and what the broker is telling me. But in fairness, he did send me approx. 100 pictures of the whole boat.

This was my first use of a surveyor, and the important thing I learned is what I think is a deal breaker may differ with what the surveyor thinks is a deal breaker. I'd much rather look at it myself, in person.

That's a good way of looking at things in regards to the survey; a snapshot good and bad.
I don't really feel like the survey was wasted money though. I learned alot about the boats, I learned that all surveyors are not created equal, and now, If I go look at any other boats, I'll have an idea on how to go about evaluating the boat.
I'll also be sure and personally speak to the surveyor and ask him what the survey involves and what he looks for, and if he's familiar with the NTs.

Your wrong about arriving at the boat and being disappointed. I was actually suprised at the great condition of the boat. I expected the gel coat to be cooked from the south florida sun. The boat looked new. The boat exceeded my expectations condition/wear wise and cosmetically.

I did start to get cold feet and probably threw in the towel too soon. Chalk it up to inexperience.
It was weird though, when things didn't work, nobody wanted to talk about it. I expected the broker to say "hey Joe, I know your dissapointed that things didn't work proper. What can we do to make you comfortable and make this deal happen?"
The broker gave me a tour of FT Lauderdale after the survey and I must have brought up the boat 3 times with no reply from him.
I must have asked the diesel surveyor 3 times " hey, what's up with the generator?"
I also was concerned about my deposit and being rushed to make a decision on the boat. The contract clearly stated I had to reject/accept the boat by a certain date in writing. And the broker was crystal clear about meeting deadlines on the contract.

I want to thank everyone who offered advice and suggestions.
This is a great forum, and I'll be sure and let everyone know what happens.


Thanks!
__________________

Tunajoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012