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Old 09-04-2014, 07:18 AM   #101
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Maybe more people shouldn't be so quick with opinions if you don't want to be made to look bad. You didn't really get insulted...he just pointed out what many were probably thinking and what I am saying just in different words. As many say...if you want to play in public forums...a thick skin comes in handy. This forum usually gets raves for being milk toast.

Like the thru hull...I can't tell for sure with one pic...but to say it was done like a house is a pretty bold statement from that pic. It looks to me like squeeze out that never got trimmed (who ever got busy/distracted and didn't finish something that is discovered later?) A quick job from the outside just as likely would have been followed by a quick finger wipe. I also can't be sure it's silicone or any particular sealant. So if you make a "it is" statement...too often here I have seen the OP come back later or someone else and cleat things up to reality.

The A/C uniits like others have posted look pristine compared to mine...and as has been posted will shut down for a variety of reasons...most of which are external factors...although I would have to refresh the possibles for a "low Freon" error code. But chasing a leak for low Freon based on that amount of rust is comical compared to the looks of many well running A/C units.

While there always is a possibility that this could have been a sunk boat...guessing it over the internet based on a few posts is gonna collect flack..especially if one of the cited reasons is the cutless needs to be repaired when it's always in the water anyhow. The right assortment of things to look for on a sunk boat may have been useful...like a BoatFax report or BoatHistoryReport or looking on the backside of things or water markings, etc...

As PHK mentioned in a post #33, the good deals have been snapped up recently and while there's always a good deal out there...connecting with it isn't always easy. Sure repeating it's a buyers market because that's what everyone is saying is easy...and I'll agree if you are looking for a 23 foot CC or a 25 foot bowrider. But if you look for certain style, make or model boats...the pickings aren't always there when you want them to be and the travel and looking costs can quickly exceed the cost of a genny and A/C unit replacement...and in this case we don't even know what the more simple repairs might be.
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:12 AM   #102
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Smart, dumb and stupid statements indeed are made on TF. A gentle nudge is OK, you are wrong is OK, and I totally agree is OK. But never ever suggest a wild a$$ guess has no basis in fact Hollywood.

Where is Don Rickles when we need him? Better yet where is Rick B who could easily shed some light on the subject of turbos, full throttle RPM, diesel engine efficiency, Tier 3 and 4 compliance, old beater diesels we dearly love but are not as good as we think etc.

In other words, buck up guys. It is a tough world out there and a little egg on one's face is a lot better than being a journalist in the Middle East.

Now back to the NT 32 saga. Tunajoe why not continue the conversation with CaptBill (he seems to have and oar or two in the water) and have him go look at this sinker and see if it is for real - at say a 10% reduction from your last offer?
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:40 AM   #103
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I miss the professional articles and links RickB provided...much better than the typical "ABYC suggests" or "the manufacturer knows better"...
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Old 09-04-2014, 10:21 AM   #104
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Looks like a fair amount of torch work has been done on one of those ac units. Strange for being that new...
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Old 09-04-2014, 10:22 AM   #105
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The manufacturer backs up their opinions with warranty $$. That goes a long way with me toward giving their opinion more credibility than most other opinions.
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Old 09-04-2014, 10:28 AM   #106
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Looks like a fair amount of torch work has been done on one of those ac units. Strange for being that new...
interesting...wonder why

somewhere I thought I read the newer Wabasto's did NOT have service ports on them....I thought that was strange but because they are less expensive...not telling how they save money.
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Old 09-04-2014, 11:01 AM   #107
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It appears service valves were added based on those pictures. That may have been done at the last service that was mentioned by the OP.
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Old 09-04-2014, 11:32 AM   #108
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While it is hard to judge the condition of any boat via low resolution pictures looking at a couple things would lead ME to not be concerned about a sunk boat.
Just a few things came to mind.
The carpet in one shot is clearly not new due to discoloration around a floor access hatch.
There is dust/grime accumulation on one of the pics behind some of the machinery that would of disappeared while cleaning a sunk boat.
the woodwork looks original and in good shape
there would likely be more surface rust on equipmemt or it would of been repainted

The statement that is was a sinker could of just as easily been that it had been dropped while shipping or that it was struck by lightening.. nothing suggests either.

By comparison to the PNW, Florida is very harsh on boats and electrical bits suffer greatly from all the corrosion issues related to the humidity.

Everybody has limits on what they find acceptable regarding issues found during a boat purchase.. clearly the OP was above his limits and backed away.
Some here tend to feel that a 12 year old used boat should be the same as a new boat. the boat was priced lower than most like boats.. the Owner likely reduced his price as he knew it had some issues.

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Old 09-04-2014, 12:05 PM   #109
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Well in all fairness the survey and the first visit by the OP did bring to light a number of issues he didn't expect after flying 3000 miles. Genset failure. AC failure. Some breaker tripping. Failed WOT test. Questionable repairs one using silicone in the completely wrong application. Easy to say this is trivial stuff but he was told all was fixed and shown receipts and still the same things were broken when he got there.

Sure it's a boat and something will always be broken, but seems like something isn't ringing true here.

Dave
Is failed WOT the same as not achieving specified full load RPM?
I ask because when I reviewed the engine survey the Cummings specified RPM of 2600 was not met. The boat was only able to reach 2500RPM at full throttle (measured at the flywheel with tachometer)
I'm curious what that means and if it's something to be concerned about.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:13 PM   #110
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Is failed WOT the same as not achieving specified full load RPM?
I ask because when I reviewed the engine survey the Cummings specified RPM of 2600 was not met. The boat was only able to reach 2500RPM at full throttle (measured at the flywheel with tachometer)
I'm curious what that means and if it's something to be concerned about.


Could mean fouled bottom and/or underwater hardware. Could mean boatloads of owner's stuff on board. Or maybe prop size or pitch isn't optimum for that particular load. Or props could simply need conditioning (although any serious dings could show up in felt vibration). Or some combination of all that.

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Old 09-04-2014, 12:15 PM   #111
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Could mean fouled bottom and/or underwater hardware. Could mean boatloads of owner's stuff on board. Or maybe prop size or pitch isn't optimum for that particular load. Or props could simply need conditioning (although any serious dings could show up in felt vibration). Or some combination of all that.

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There were 5 grown men on board with a 3/4 full tank of diesel fuel with a full full tank of fresh water.
The bottom paint was just redone and the prop cleaned and balanced.
Everything looked great on the bottom when hauled out.

All other specs fell within Cummings specifications.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:17 PM   #112
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Is it overpropped? Was the bottom clean? Was the fuel old? Had the filters been changed or vacuum readings taken?

Just like other issues with the boat...till the REASON is known...failure can be from simple to serious....depends on how many options you have to buy....and whether your time is valuable to this purchase.

Again not a walkaway reason...but a question to why? reason.

My friend is selling a 55 Viking...the boat was overpropped by the guy he bought it from and a $3000 engine survey certified the engines in top condition....but the new owner, surveyor, new owner and broker were all clueless to the actual performance of the boat and engines. They kept insisting on full power and I kept telling them the boat may not reach top speed, won't reach WOT for sure as the last survey certified, the EGT will be high and the engine temps will start rising in a few minutes. Well...all those things came true in the sea trial...fortunately my friend still has the old props on board...so here we go again....

I told him that if the engines passed within all parameters...all those involved should split the costs of haul, reprop and sea trial...but I know that's a pipe dream.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:32 PM   #113
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tunajoe

What is the exact engine, year, model and HP rating. Also. with this info go to boatdiesel.com and look up engine specs including full load RPM rating and archive information. Is there any indication or dates for:
  • The aftercooler, if so equipped, has had a by the book servicing
  • Engine and transmission heat exchangers have been cleaned
  • RW impeller replaced
  • Air filter replaced/serviced
  • Oil changes
  • Zincs changed
  • Valves adjusted
Knowing this stuff will tell you of concern areas, if owner was diligent and point to another few $K to be spent - or not.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:47 PM   #114
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As a broker who goes through this on a regular basis representing a buyer or a seller it is an interesting thread to read.
I will like to mention that many surveyors and engine surveyors do not carry tools to do repairs. Some of them say that they get paid to report on the condition, not to fix things and need to spend time on the survey.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:15 PM   #115
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tunajoe

What is the exact engine, year, model and HP rating. Also. with this info go to boatdiesel.com and look up engine specs including full load RPM rating and archive information. Is there any indication or dates for:
  • The aftercooler, if so equipped, has had a by the book servicing
  • Engine and transmission heat exchangers have been cleaned
  • RW impeller replaced
  • Air filter replaced/serviced
  • Oil changes
  • Zincs changed
  • Valves adjusted
Knowing this stuff will tell you of concern areas, if owner was diligent and point to another few $K to be spent - or not.
I have the invoices for all of the above with the exception of the valve adjustment. All the above was done in the last 5 months...assuming the invoices were accurate.

I've been to Boatdiesel.com but it appears that you have to pay money to join?



Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
As a broker who goes through this on a regular basis representing a buyer or a seller it is an interesting thread to read.
I will like to mention that many surveyors and engine surveyors do not carry tools to do repairs. Some of them say that they get paid to report on the condition, not to fix things and need to spend time on the survey.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:31 PM   #116
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The reality is that none of us knows the condition of the boat and neither does the OP. Seeing that boat at that price I would have fully expected some things to fail during the survey. What or how many, I have no idea. Forget the "this was just done" or "serviced regularly" or anything else, price and boat equal some issues. I would have also then been prepared to address those issues post survey. Either you get them fixed or you get a price reduction. But then we have no idea the cost of fixing. 2500 rpm vs. 2600 isn't going to panic me but I am going to want to see the other aspects of the engine survey. Was the oil analyzed? What was found otherwise? Those are the things that would have influenced me.

Fact is the buyer walked away so we'll never know unless someone else from TF buys it and tells us.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:34 PM   #117
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I miss the professional articles and links RickB provided...much better than the typical "ABYC suggests" or "the manufacturer knows better"...
Rick is very busy these days with his own company and the exhaust emissions product he makes and sells to the mega-yacht folks.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:36 PM   #118
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I have the invoices for all of the above with the exception of the valve adjustment. All the above was done in the last 5 months...assuming the invoices were accurate.
To me "Done by who" is the big question. Now if done by someone reputable some of that work might be warranteed.
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:26 PM   #119
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.....when I reviewed the engine survey the Cummings specified RPM of 2600 was not met. The boat was only able to reach 2500RPM at full throttle (measured at the flywheel with tachometer)
I'm curious what that means and if it's something to be concerned about.


Assuming during the engine tests that the engine achieved its maximum governed rpm with no load on it, what you're seeing is the load effect of the propeller on the boat. Just as a car cannot reach specified WOT rpm going up a hill in high gear, so a boat's engine may not be able to reach WOT rpm in gear because of the prop pitch.

The fact a boat can't achieve the manufacturer's listed WOT rpm under load is not necessarily a cause for concern. Some boats, like Grand Banks during the 60s, 70s, and 80s at least, came from the manufacturer "overpropped." It was like getting a car with higher gear ratios.

The advantage is that for a given rpm the prop moves more water and thus you get more speed. For cruising at lower speeds with low to medium power engines, this makes for a more efficient operations because you go farther on less fuel.

BUT.... there is a limit to how much you can get away with. Too much pitch on the prop and the engine may be working too hard all the time.

And there are other types of boats, or other types of operations, where you don't want this overpropped or "cruise prop" setup. This is partriculalry true of boats that by design are intended to be run faster than the typical cruiser's 6-8 knots. In these applications, horsepower is more important, so the props are pitched down.

It's a pretty complex relationship, engine power + rpm + prop diameter + pitch, and there's really no one-size-fits-all combination or explanation.

The very rough and general rule of thumb is that the prop should be pitched to allow the engine to reach is specified WOT rpm. The fact that the boat you were testing did not, and the WOT rpm was 100 or whatever less than the book figure, would indicate the boat is slightly overpropped.

That is not a bad thing at all for some boats and engine/prop combinations. I suspect--- but I don't know-- that a Nordic Tug could benefit from overpropping unless the owner wanted to run it at the higher but less fuel efficient speeds the NT is capable of.

If you want more information on how this prop pitch-WOT rpm thing works, I suggest you talk to a reputable prop shop in your area. We did when we were told our old GB needed new props, and we learned a hell of a lot in the process of getting our prop situation squared away.
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:37 PM   #120
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The reality is that none of us knows the condition of the boat and neither does the OP. Seeing that boat at that price I would have fully expected some things to fail during the survey. What or how many, I have no idea. Forget the "this was just done" or "serviced regularly" or anything else, price and boat equal some issues. I would have also then been prepared to address those issues post survey. Either you get them fixed or you get a price reduction. But then we have no idea the cost of fixing. 2500 rpm vs. 2600 isn't going to panic me but I am going to want to see the other aspects of the engine survey. Was the oil analyzed? What was found otherwise? Those are the things that would have influenced me.

Fact is the buyer walked away so we'll never know unless someone else from TF buys it and tells us.
Agreed

I look at a boat with my own eyes, then the professionals I pay for that service.

I believe nothing the previous owner tells the broker is true, and very recent work is always subject to verification.

I think that people tend to have too high of expectations out of a used boat. I think people that shop the bargain basement boats need to adjust their expectations accordingly.

There is no free lunch.
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