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Old 12-23-2007, 11:27 AM   #1
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What we want/got

OK, what boat have you got, why did you get it, was it a mistake or a good move, what will be the next boat and why and for the wannabee's, what's on your mind regarding choices?
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Old 12-23-2007, 02:34 PM   #2
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RE: What we want/got

What have we got? 64' 1990 Vantare MY. Twin 8V-92s, 1050 gal. of fuel.

Why? The Admiral toured it, looked at me, and said "I can't find anything wrong with it."* Not to blame her... it was also what I wanted... before I knew what I wanted.

Mistake? Yes and no.

Yes, in that after more than 2 years of ownership, it's still an uphill climb in maintenance. I can't seem to catch up, let alone get ahead of the curve. Also, it's a fuel pig at >1300 RPM, topping out at a whopping 76 gph at WOT (2,000 RPM = approx. 19 kts.). At our normal cruise of 1,200 RPM (11 kts.), we consume about 17 gph. Yes, in that the range purported by the PO indicated a trip to Cabo is possible from LA @ 1200 RPM (the sweet spot) without refueling. No way, no how... not w/o bladders.

No, in that all the above aside, it's a great coastal cruiser. Trips to San Diego, Ensenada and the Channel Islands are a breeze, as was the cruise south from the Delta when we brought her home to LA. We've learned a ton, have cruised through some pretty nasty stuff and she held up fine. It has a tremendous amount of living space, but we've had to trade off for an engine room more suitable for a munchkin than me.

Next boat? Probably a steel trawler/passagemaker... though FG hasn't been discounted. We've been having in depth discussions with Naval Architects and builders for the greater part of a year, and need to get our financial ducks in a row. I envision our next boat looking something like these shown below.

Why? Huge fuel capacity and good fuel economy, steel/aluminum construction, lots of space (The Admiral likes it) and bullet proof design and one thing I'll bet many of you even think about: A day head in the PH. A good boat to take my grandkids cruising on in the Caribbean during Xmas vacation. Even if I never cross an ocean, I know I can in this.


-- Edited by KMA at 15:37, 2007-12-23

-- Edited by KMA at 15:41, 2007-12-23
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Old 12-23-2007, 02:44 PM   #3
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What we want/got

We have a Grand Banks 36 from the first year of fiberglass., 1973 We had chartered a 1991 GB36 to see if we even liked the lifestyle and decided we did. Our boating budget could not accommodate a newer GB so we decided to find an old one. The interesting thing was that until we chartered the GB36, Grand Banks was not even on our list of boats we liked, although we hadn't really thought much about getting into this kind of boating. Our favorite was--- and to a large degree still is--- the Lord Nelson Victory Tug. We did not--- and still don't--- find a Grand Banks particularly appealing in terms of the aesthetics of the design. It's okay, and better than many, but it's not our favorite boat design.

We have no interest whatsoever in open-ocean boating (been there, done that, used to have the T-shirt). So we wanted a boat ideally suited for the cruising we're interested in, which is exclusively the inside waters of the Inside Passage between the San Juan Islands and Glacier Bay (yes, we know there are couple of brief "ocean runs" on that route).

Requirements of ours that the GB meets---

1- Fairly low freeboard with a high bow and positive sheerline.
2-Full walk-around decks with high bulwarks and good rails.
3-Good visibility from the helm station.
4-Built like a tank (GBs from 1973 to about mid-1974 were built under the direct supervision of Howard Abbey and have terrific hulls. Abbey also helped Hatteras get into fiberglass)
5. Good stability and decent ride in the kinds of water conditions we encounter in this area.
6-Separate owner's cabin, separate forecabin for guests (we hate making up berths in main cabins).
7- Two engines. We have no qualm about single engine boats--- the GB we chartered was a single--- but I like engines and operating them, so the more the merrier.
8- Reasonable access to stuff in the engine room. (Our boat is okay in the engine room even with two engines and a generator, but its not great.)
9- Reasonable fuel efficiency (the two Lehman 120s burn a total of about 6gph at a bit over 8 knots.
10- Good builder's reputation, very familiar boat and engines to yards, parts suppliers, etc.
11-- (but didn't discover this until later) Excellent owner's forum(s) with a high number of VERY experienced and knowledgeable GB folks on it.

I will be surprised if we ever own another boat, but if we do its requirements will be the same as I've listed above except---

1- Pilothouse design.
2- Single engine (we won't have a choice given the boats we like that meet requirement #1)

If we were to buy a different boat today the only production boats we would probably consider are a Victory Tug (37' or 49'), and a Krogen (44'). And maybe--- just maybe--- a larger Willard.** A boat design I really like from an aesthetic and seakeeping perspective is the lobsterboat, like Carey's "Happy Destiny."* However this design does not have some of the things we like such as a full walk-around deck, and the lobsterboat really seems to prefer being run at higher speeds, which with today's fuel prices is a consideration.

A design element I absolutely detest is a forward-raked windshield--- it is the single most anti-aesthetic element in modern boat design in my opinion. I understand the reason behind this design and in boats that actually encounter the conditions that gave rise to this design it makes a whole bunch of sense. But to put a forward-raked windshield on an otherwise good looking boat that will never see a storm in the open ocean to me is just poor design. It's an easy way of making the buyer think he's getting a "real" boat. Anyway, I hate it and would never buy a boat with it.

But overall we're very happy with what we have and it meets almost all our requirements, however bland we may feel the GB design is. It's a good length for owner-maintenance--- given our current work and other commitments a larger boat could easily get away from us. I guess the most telling point is that we rarely find ourselves saying, Gee, I wish we had more this, or bigger that, or some other feature the GB doesn't have.

-- Edited by Marin at 16:23, 2007-12-23
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Old 12-23-2007, 05:43 PM   #4
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What we want / got

Capnwill, Walt, John and Marin,

I'm glad you brought the Car @ Driver thing up John as I intended to start a post on that at least a month ago. Common and average people don't get as involved in making statements about who they are or who they want us to belive they are as special people do. Many of us have laid praise or said " my kind of boat " reguarding boats that are very different or even totally different that thier own. I've heard people say " I would'nt be caught dead in that " " I would'n be seen with her ". What other people think of us is very important to most of us. Krogenguy says it directly. " I want to be thought of as a Krogen owner and all that is implied by being a Krogen owner". I'm not making fun of you Tom. The Krogen boat is nearly at the top of my wish list and if I had the money I would likely have one. I may even call myself a Willard guy but it would be a bit in error. If I was'nt in Alaska I would probably have a different boat ( like a faster one ) but the fuel economy and seaworthyness I must not pass up. I should call myself the Sumnercraft guy but nobody would know what I was talking about. I think the Trawler Is thought of as heavy, stout and capable not unlike a man who is considered manly. People and advertisers are calling just about any kind of boat a trawler nowdays to give it a positive and or masculine immage to make it more apealling. I remember most everyone was all for guns on one of our threads. I'll bet a large percentage of us have large masculine PU trucks and Harleys too. I was a biker for years and know there is a connection between motorcycling and boating.
Walt points out that many of us go astray buying boats that are what we want or think we want rather that what we need could make the most use of. The man who makes my dinghys says that the amount of fun we have with our boats is inversly porportional to the size of our boats. I sincerely hope I hav'nt insulted anyone as I have the greatest respect for almost everyone on this site.

Eric Henning
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Thorne Bay AK
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:14 PM   #5
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I think it's human nature for most people to try to project whatever image they want other people to have of them. In the same way that most people buy a car (or motorcycle) that helps reinforce whatever their self-image is, I think people do the same thing with boats.

The trick is to figure out which boat will accomplish both things at once--- meet the boater's actual boating requirements AND reinforce his/her self image. Most of the time, there are a number of makes and models of boats that will meet our actual boating requirements. Once we've figured out what that short-list is, it then starts coming down to personal preference, and self-image is a significant component of our personal preference.

I'm sure everyone on this forum could name a boat that would meet their boating requirements from a purely functional and design point of view, but that they wouldn't be "caught dead" owning
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:51 PM   #6
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RE: What we want / got

I remember most everyone was all for guns on one of our threads. I'll bet a large percentage of us have large masculine PU trucks and Harleys too. I was a biker for years and know there is a connection between motorcycling and boating.


Geeze, I think you got me pegged, right down to the Alaska part. it's a little scary.* .....................Arctic Traveller

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Old 12-24-2007, 12:44 AM   #7
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RE: What we want / got

Quote:
Marin wrote:



I'm sure everyone on this forum could name a boat that would meet their boating requirements from a purely functional and design point of view, but that they wouldn't be "caught dead" owning
The Carver Mariner series....you know, the one that looks like a Nike High top shoe.* As ugly as that boat is, look how functional that layout is.* You can access all on deck areas by climbing only a coupla steps....no ladders....just wander about on deck.* Anyway, it is the ugliest boat I have ever seen....but you see hundreds of them and I know why.
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:39 AM   #8
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RE: What we want / got

This is a simple extension of the old CA disease "You are your car".

taken to the extreme you get the Hog folks , who care not a whit about mororcycling , but see their Hog as a personal jewlery statement, all about themselves.

Remember a real enthusiast'sbike will go zero to 100mpg and stop before the Hog has wallowed to 55 , but thats fine with Hogsters.

Guess Im not a jewlery guy I have the same 1964 BMW R-60 US since new.


With boats the problem is few folkls are willing to make a list , of the requirements and desirements for their realistic use.

Some need 60 ft "trawlers " to never leave the dock* that would be far better served with a houseboat instead.

Probably gets back to weather its the boat or the voyage.

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Old 12-24-2007, 03:57 AM   #9
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For me , If I'm lucky the next boat will be a box boat,

to fit in a std shipping container and allow worldwide cruising with out the long ocean passages.

Surely a challenge to get OK living in a 38 ft boat with a 7ft 6 inch beam.

Since the boat is only for vacations (3-4 months) and only for 2 people (although 4 bunks are needed for resale) it seems doable.Simplicity is the key as little will be servaceible in many places.

We were aboard the Perry M/S,, INBOX (where I got the idea) and the space and volume seem liveable enough.

Sure renting might be better in the Frog canals etc , but with a few decades in motel rooms while working , being aboard my own home afloat is far more pleasureable.

AS the boat will have a unique hull bottom a model is being created to test.

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Old 12-24-2007, 10:36 AM   #10
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My boat is not an extension of me. It is what I can afford. After seven years of bluewater traveling at 8.5 knots I should be used to it but it is still a pain. I would much rather have a 16 knot planing hull with lots of power but I could not afford the fuel burn. I guess I will have to be content with plugging along and spending hours at sea to get anywhere. In my case, getting there is not half the fun.
P.S. Hate the brightwork!
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Old 12-24-2007, 12:28 PM   #11
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RE: What we want / got

Good grief, this is beginning to sound a little like a certain motorcycle BB I frequent. A question......... How many of us have motorcycles here? So, far it' sounds like BMW's are the most popular. I have a R100GS, (and several others) with about 180,000 miles. After getting sick and tired of riding through third world countries, but still wanting the thrill of discovering new and out of the way places, I moved back into boats, and ended up in Alaska. The BMW GS is a rugged machine designed for exploration to hard to reach places, just like the trawler...........Arctic Traveller

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Old 12-24-2007, 01:10 PM   #12
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RE: What we want / got

My boat is larger than I was looking for. But there are not too many choices in my price range. I wanted something classic with style and personality. Most of the boats that fit the bill are made of wood and I decided I wanted steel. This limited my choices even more.

My boat has turned out to be even more special to me after purchasing it and researching the history. Also getting to know the boat better. I don't regret anything but I wouldn't have minded if the boat was in the 50 to 60 foot range.

I too have motorcycles. Dirt, street, and track. My classic 1970 Yamaha R5 350 is my favorite, set up for track only.

Attached is a photo of me on my 2000 Yamaha R1 on the track.
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Old 12-24-2007, 01:38 PM   #13
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RE: What we want / got

Hey Bikers,

I knew I was on track with this motorcycle connection. I quit riding 10 yrs ago as I thought the traffic density was too great and people started following too close. I was planing to resume riding when we got to Alaska but summer before last when we were looking at houses a large black bear came running out of the ditch and slamed into the 73 Buick at about the same speed that we were going ( about 45 ). He hit hard enough that most of the water on his fur went flying over the hood of the car. Nobody has any explation as to why the bear did that but can you imagine what that would have been like on a motorcycle!

Eric Henning
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Thorne Bay AK
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:02 PM   #14
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First I must apologise to RTF for starting the second want / got thread. A misunderstanding on my part. Marin, I agree completly about the fwd slanting windshield. It appears some think they can turn an outboard into a trawler by slanting the windsheild fwd. A fad, however some very small boats can gain some almost nessessary headroom that way. Reguarding boat choice I'm fairly certian I've got the right boat as every time I think of what I could replace it with I come up empty handed. Can't think of a single boat that could replace it. Moorage is cheap up here so I could even look at longer boats that would allow greater speed and still stay in the gallon an hour catergory but most longer boats would not be as seaworthy. Looks like I should be free to sink more money into her so you guys shop for boats, I'll just shop for an autopilot.

Eric Henning
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Thorne Bay AK
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:09 PM   #15
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Not a problem nomadwilly, better in the general discussion than off the deep end...I should apologise, I panicked.....
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:03 PM   #16
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Only had one motorcycle, a 1941 or '42 BMW sidecar motorcycle without the sidecar. It had a gearshift next to the fuel tank and a reverse gear. I owned it for a couple of months, decided I didn't like riding motorcycles, and traded it for an Austin-Healey 3000 MkII in which the previous owner had installed a Jaguar XK engine. The engine swap was a big mistake as it turned out, but I should have kept the car and put the original engine back in it. But I sold it when I left Colorado State University to return to Hawaii. Looking back on it, it was one of those major mistakes we all made during our college years. My other major mistake I made at the same time was selling the M1 National Match Garand that I had at the same time. That rifle today would be worth as much as our boat. Well, not quite, but it'd be worth a lot, to say nothing of the fact it was neat rifle.

I find motorcycles very intriguing as machines, but I need another thing to maintain like I need a hole in the head. The only motorcycle that appeals to me today is a Vincent Black Shadow, probably because we got to know someone in England who has an immaculate one. Fortunately, Vincent Black Shadows command staggering prices today so they are not even on my "maybe someday" list. Besides, I already have one vintage British vehicle to keep running, and that's the 1973 Land Rover I bought new and still drive today. I've got enough parts in the garage to damn near build a second one.

To build on what Eric said, there is a piece of advice I first saw stated in a story in Boy's Life magazine back in the 1960s. The story was about a local boy in a New England harbor town who was a first class sailor and had a small sailboat, and a newcomer rich kid who wanted a boat, didn't know anything about boats or sailing, and asked the local kid what he should buy. The advice from the local kid was "Buy the smallest boat you can afford."

By which he meant that if you have x-amount of dollars, the smaller the boat you buy that will meet your requirements, the better condition it will be in, or the newer it will be, which usually translates into the same thing.

In the story, the newbie rich kid bought as big a sailboat as he could get with the money he had, and of course it was riddled with problems and rot and was basically a catastrophe in every meaning of the word.

But I think that basic advice--- buy the smallest boat you can afford--- is very good advice indeed.

-- Edited by Marin at 18:07, 2007-12-24
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Old 12-24-2007, 10:55 PM   #17
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RE: What we want/got

Marin,

Good grief Marin. In about 1969 I had a Jaguar engine too but it was in a 1957 Jaguar 140 MC roadster...black w red leather and wheels. Had a wonderful adventure with that car. It was the mother of all cars for picking up girls. Twice a girl jumped into the car at a light without me even so mutch as winking at them. Now I'm an old man in an old Willard boat and I think I'm OK with that.

Eric Henning
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Old 12-25-2007, 03:37 AM   #18
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"I would much rather have a 16 knot planing hull with lots of power but I could not afford the fuel burn. I guess I will have to be content with plugging along and spending hours at sea to get anywhere. In my case, getting there is not half the fun.
P.S. Hate the brightwork!

Well IF you can give up mere volume for volumes sake we are testing for 5nmpg at 18K , as THE design goal.

The interior will be both painted ply , and some hi tech very lightweight structure.Nothing varnished .

You will also need to accept the sailboat concept of space/volume being used for more than one purpose.

EG the shower area may do double duty as an oilskin locker at times.

Slow to the trawler krawl of 10K , and 10nmpg seems possible.(on a computer anyway).

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Old 12-26-2007, 06:00 PM   #19
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RE: What we want/got

Quote:
Arctic Traveller wrote:

Good grief, this is beginning to sound a little like a certain motorcycle BB I frequent. A question......... How many of us have motorcycles here? So, far it' sounds like BMW's are the most popular. I have a R100GS, (and several others) with about 180,000 miles. After getting sick and tired of riding through third world countries, but still wanting the thrill of discovering new and out of the way places, I moved back into boats, and ended up in Alaska. The BMW GS is a rugged machine designed for exploration to hard to reach places, just like the trawler...........Arctic Traveller

Trawler training and yacht charters at www.arctictraveller.com
New photos up on the site


I've had 4 motorcyles in my time:* A 1947 Knucklehead was my first, followed by a 1970 Triumph Bonnie, then a 1979 Yamaha XS1100 and today's 2001 H-D Road King Classic.
It's funny... some days I find myself flipping a coin:* Do I ride the scooter, or go up to Das Boot?* More and more I find myself heading to the boat, in no small part due to this aggravating thing they call "trigger finger" on the middle finger of my left (clutch) hand.* Makes it a PITA to pull in the clutch on the bike.

Funny you should mention riding thru 3rd world countries.* Some of the best rides I've ever had have been through Mexico.
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:45 PM   #20
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RE: What we want/got

Below is a photo of what I "want/got", my wife and girlfriend.* I refer to my Suzuki Intruder as my "girlfriend".* We both have bikes.* Terri has a Honda Shadow.

Our "Got" boat is Troika, our Albin 25 Delux and our (mostly "my") "want" is a Diesel Duck.* Even the smaller 38 would be great.* My favorite feature is the aft owners stateroom.* I like the portholes that look out over the built in swim platform.

I've been looking at TT trawlers.* I think many are more than substantial and seaworthy enough for the intended purpose.* I especially like the older CHB's and Willards.* A 30' Willard or a 36' Willard would be great.* I like the round bottom boats the best, even for coastal cruising.* I'm looking for the economy.* I'm in no hurry and*I prefer to be ready for the unexpected (storm, high wind, etc).*

For now, Troika is a lot of fun and has terrific capabilities.* I just need to get out there and stretch her sea legs a little more often.*

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