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Old 09-12-2015, 12:12 PM   #81
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I can understand adapting a boat that I already own to fit a purpose, but if I we're buying one, why shouldn't I buy a more seaworthy, longer range vessel than my intended purpose? Can one have a too seaworthy of a vessel?

.
Actually they can if it no longer fits their primary purpose. A Nordhavn 60 wouldn't work for the Loop and a Nordhavn 76 wouldn't be good for the ICW.

However, I agree with your argument to a point and that is to have a boat that's more seaworthy and has greater range is always a plus if it doesn't give up any of your primary needs.

If you never use that extra capability some would then argue you wasted money.

As to range, there is also the annoyance factor. We love our sport boat but at cruise of 35 knots we have less than 8 hours range. So, even if full at the start of the day may have to stop along the way, and everywhere we dock will need to fuel. Meanwhile, another boat that will cruise for 70 hours at 20 knots or 300 hours at 12 knots.

Range was always a consideration in our purchasing of a boat to cruise. It eliminated almost all Italian and British boats. A 60' or 64' Princess with flybridge and a range of under 300 nm, about 8-10 hours at cruise. Obviously for those just wanting to move a short distance and anchor.
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Old 09-14-2015, 09:43 AM   #82
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As I am reading - I understand that I am catching a bit of flack for not knowing what I want to do with the boat, if I want to cross oceans or not. Here is what I can say. I do not have plans to cross oceans per say, however I would love to eventually be capable (whether I do or not, idk) of going around the entire North America continent. From my understanding, many will say this is just coastal hopping - maybe it is. If so, I guess that is what I want to be able to do. Either way I agree that I would like a boat more capable and more safe than I would use. If I invest everything, I wont have the luxury of upgrading or changing 4-5 yrs from now.

As I know - Nordhaven is a fairly popular boat for long range, however to be honest I am not impressed with the living spaces. Yes I know this is a sacrifice for the safety and configuration of crossing oceans. However I will be doing more living then crossing oceans.

So with that being said - what are the important features I should be looking for if I want to have the capability of circumnavigating the Continent - Also, I will show my ignorance here and ask why the long range "ocean crossers" have only a primary single engine vs dual?
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:14 AM   #83
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"So with that being said - what are the important features I should be looking for if I want to have the capability of circumnavigating the Continent"


After you decide the routes that you want to take with the vessel you will likely be restricted to some set of numbers for clearances (height above water) and draft (deepest depth of boat).
Those two numbers can limit your choices greatly once you have decided where you are likely to cruise. So if you plan to do the loop inland and around the east coast will determine a lot about your choice. If on the other hand your choices do not include these routes you next set of limits may very well likely be with fuel use and range.
It is impossible to solve for your questions without knowing the route(s) that you will be doing and maybe some that you 'might' do.


Hope this helps
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:36 AM   #84
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As I am reading - I understand that I am catching a bit of flack for not knowing what I want to do with the boat, if I want to cross oceans or not. Here is what I can say. I do not have plans to cross oceans per say, however I would love to eventually be capable (whether I do or not, idk) of going around the entire North America continent. From my understanding, many will say this is just coastal hopping - maybe it is. If so, I guess that is what I want to be able to do. Either way I agree that I would like a boat more capable and more safe than I would use. If I invest everything, I wont have the luxury of upgrading or changing 4-5 yrs from now.

As I know - Nordhaven is a fairly popular boat for long range, however to be honest I am not impressed with the living spaces. Yes I know this is a sacrifice for the safety and configuration of crossing oceans. However I will be doing more living then crossing oceans.
I was in your position not all that long ago. You can't possibly know everything about what you want to do in the future. Everyone here wants as much possible detail so they can give you their best advice. In general you have heard that the good coastal cruisers will enable you to fulfill your dream of circumnavigating NA - as long as you make good decisions about weather etc. In the end, as has been pointed out many times here, it's about you much more than it is about the boat. Your spirit and determination will be the biggest factor.

There is one exception though. Even though you will be doing more living than crossing oceans, if you pick a coastal cruiser you will never be crossing oceans in that boat. Truth be told, the majority of ocean crossing boats don't do it either. However, you will be making that decision once you buy the boat. You can, of course, have your coastal boat shipped across an ocean one day.

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So with that being said - what are the important features I should be looking for if I want to have the capability of circumnavigating the Continent - Also, I will show my ignorance here and ask why the long range "ocean crossers" have only a primary single engine vs dual?
The single engine in an ocean crossing boat is usually for the reduced fuel consumption to give it greater range. It's not about the cost of the fuel but rather carrying enough on board to make the crossing with some reserve.

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Old 09-14-2015, 10:47 AM   #85
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Wonderful area. Many places to anchor, marinas are less expensive than the Atlantic Coast Intercoastal. Many more barges. At the western end can circle north of New Orleans and visit the city. Mobile and Fairhope on Mobile Bay are great places to visit.

The west coast of Florida from Tampa to Naples is filled with Midwesterners. Fairly friendly.

One jump although not required is approximately 120nm to cut across the big bend on the Florida Panhandle. You can hop the coast but it does get shallow.
Marty, he just came from that direction. I think Bill is talking about the Mexican gulf coast. You probably have some insight for him on that.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:24 AM   #86
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There is one exception though. Even though you will be doing more living than crossing oceans, if you pick a coastal cruiser you will never be crossing oceans in that boat. Truth be told, the majority of ocean crossing boats don't do it either. However, you will be making that decision once you buy the boat. You can, of course, have your coastal boat shipped across an ocean one day.
That is the biggest up front decision a prospective "cruising lifestyle" person needs to make.

You can either cross an ocean with your boat or you cannot. Crossing the pacific if memory serves correctly requires approx 2,000 miles of range. Less for the Atlantic if memory is correct.

Anything less than that and you are limited to Coastal Cruising where extra fuel while nice, is not a necessity.

While a Passagemaker has specific criteria required, a Coastal Cruiser allows for more variation in features. To me, the important feature of a "cruising lifestyle" Coastal Cruiser, meaning one where you expect to sleep on for months at a time is comfort. How comfortable is the boat to live on? The cruising part is a very small percentage of time spent on board for many people with a cruising lifestyle, but living on board is 100% of the time.

When I think of a cruising lifestyle I do not think so much of the time spent at sea, I think mostly of the time spent in port, exploring new places.

When I think of passagemaking I think of the classic photo of the Nordhavn 62 in rough weather. While that is appealing in a very masculine sort of way, it is not for everyone.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:25 AM   #87
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I can understand adapting a boat that I already own to fit a purpose, but if I we're buying one, why shouldn't I buy a more seaworthy, longer range vessel than my intended purpose? Can one have a too seaworthy of a vessel?

For the OP's budget, I second the N46 recommendation above.
My Krogen 42 qualifies as a good long range vessel. However, I have said many times it would make a poor boat for mooring in Chicago and cruising Lake Michigan. The Krogen 42 is not a good marina boat, and is not a good boat for the distances between interesting places on Lake Michigan.

We kept Bay Pelican on Lake Michigan for three years and did not cruise very much.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:39 AM   #88
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It was no joke.

Are you now indicating tht thre manufacturer of that yacht undersized their complete ground tackle system?.
There you go again - You're pulling our legs, right?

Again, the McKinna in question has 200' of chain, the bow is 7 feet out of the water, so anchoring with a 7:1 scope means you are limited to 28.57'. Minus the 7 feet of bow height gives 20'. With an average tidal range of 10' (in your area) that says you can safely anchor in...10' MLLW of water. Oh wait, unless there's surge.

The only anchoring "specifications" I can gleen from the McKinna site is that the anchor they furnish has to be stainless and shiny. They certainly don't show a boat anchored. Or operating in more than 1' of combined wave height.

Would you really trust a manufacturer - who's most prominent member of their design team does "Exterior Styling and Interior Ergonomic" and engineering consultant is "a leading designer of custom designs with projects having been constrcuted (sic) on four continents." - to furnish a ground tackle system sufficient for cruising the entire West coast of North and Central Americas?

And do you really believe you can increase anchoring capability by simply bolting on "a pretty nice anchor of any size" (your words)?
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:49 AM   #89
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Krogen Whaleback 48

This is a stretch for the OP's budget, but here's one that is a passagemaker without sacrificing living space.
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It will still be a downgrade from a luxury house, but I think a $400k vessel might be too much of a step-down.
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:03 PM   #90
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That is the biggest up front decision a prospective "cruising lifestyle" person needs to make.

You can either cross an ocean with your boat or you cannot. Crossing the pacific if memory serves correctly requires approx 2,000 miles of range. Less for the Atlantic if memory is correct.

Anything less than that and you are limited to Coastal Cruising where extra fuel while nice, is not a necessity.

While a Passagemaker has specific criteria required, a Coastal Cruiser allows for more variation in features. To me, the important feature of a "cruising lifestyle" Coastal Cruiser, meaning one where you expect to sleep on for months at a time is comfort. How comfortable is the boat to live on? The cruising part is a very small percentage of time spent on board for many people with a cruising lifestyle, but living on board is 100% of the time.

When I think of a cruising lifestyle I do not think so much of the time spent at sea, I think mostly of the time spent in port, exploring new places.

When I think of passagemaking I think of the classic photo of the Nordhavn 62 in rough weather. While that is appealing in a very masculine sort of way, it is not for everyone.
That is a helpful perspective - knowing I most likely won't be crossing and requiring 2000 NM at a stretch. I also agree that I will be living more than long range cruising
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:06 PM   #91
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Here you go:

1986 Defever Performance Offshore Cruiser Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Check with Tucker. But I'd bet you could pick it up for under $300,000.
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:13 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by wayne-c View Post
As I am reading - I understand that I am catching a bit of flack for not knowing what I want to do with the boat, if I want to cross oceans or not. Here is what I can say. I do not have plans to cross oceans per say, however I would love to eventually be capable (whether I do or not, idk) of going around the entire North America continent. From my understanding, many will say this is just coastal hopping - maybe it is. If so, I guess that is what I want to be able to do.

However I will be doing more living then crossing oceans.
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After you decide the routes that you want to take with the vessel you will likely be restricted to some set of numbers for clearances (height above water) and draft (deepest depth of boat).
Those two numbers can limit your choices greatly once you have decided where you are likely to cruise. So if you plan to do the loop inland and around the east coast will determine a lot about your choice. If on the other hand your choices do not include these routes you next set of limits may very well likely be with fuel use and range.
It is impossible to solve for your questions without knowing the route(s) that you will be doing and maybe some that you 'might' do.

Wayne, I think most here realize it's difficult to pin down all your eventual future criteria from the git-go...

Smitty's post seems like a useful example of ways to pare down the problem into smaller bits. You might not be able to answer those kinds of "routes" questions at first, and then as you research you might later be able to gravitate toward a more granular version of the concept...

And then when you actually get your boat -- with your best guess of the right features and the most logical compromises -- you probably adapt yourself and your plans to what it can do.

One avenue of thought you might pursue for a while is what it might cost to do an ocean passage. Not just the (likely additional) cost of the capable boat, but also the cost in terms of additional systems (stabilizers?), fuel, pre-maintenance, etc etc etc. Hypothetically, if you begin to work out the cost might be an extra $300K (just made that up, for example) over a really good ocean-capable coastal cruiser, maybe that'll give you some useful pocketbook-level insight into how your long-distance plans can evolve.

We decided an occasional airline flight is about as much ocean passage as we could stand.

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Old 09-14-2015, 12:19 PM   #93
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Wayne, I think most here realize it's difficult to pin down all your eventual future criteria from the git-go...

Smitty's post seems like a useful example of ways to pare down the problem into smaller bits. You might not be able to answer those kinds of "routes" questions at first, and then as you research you might later be able to gravitate toward a more granular version of the concept...

And then when you actually get your boat -- with your best guess of the right features and the most logical compromises -- you probably adapt yourself and your plans to what it can do.

One avenue of thought you might pursue for a while is what it might cost to do an ocean passage. Not just the (likely additional) cost of the capable boat, but also the cost in terms of additional systems (stabilizers?), fuel, pre-maintenance, etc etc etc. Hypothetically, if you begin to work out the cost might be an extra $300K (just made that up, for example) over a really good ocean-capable coastal cruiser, maybe that'll give you some useful pocketbook-level insight into how your long-distance plans can evolve.

We decided an occasional airline flight is about as much ocean passage as we could stand.

-Chris
Chris - thank you. I notice you are in a sport fisher. I was looking at a long range sport fisher once as well (later ruled out) but wanted feedback to see if you can travel along the coasts as far as you want without problems with yours?
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:19 PM   #94
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Here you go:



1986 Defever Performance Offshore Cruiser Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



Check with Tucker. But I'd bet you could pick it up for under $300,000.
Dual thrusters and stabilizers would help with single-handing. But I'm not clear why a single-hander would want 3 staterooms - and 3 heads. The maintenance requirements of this vessel would be daunting - and painting the teak rails was no favor.
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:26 PM   #95
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There you go again - You're pulling our legs, right?

Again, the McKinna in question has 200' of chain, the bow is 7 feet out of the water, so anchoring with a 7:1 scope means you are limited to 28.57'. Minus the 7 feet of bow height gives 20'. With an average tidal range of 10' (in your area) that says you can safely anchor in...10' MLLW of water. Oh wait, unless there's surge.

The only anchoring "specifications" I can gleen from the McKinna site is that the anchor they furnish has to be stainless and shiny. They certainly don't show a boat anchored. Or operating in more than 1' of combined wave height.

Would you really trust a manufacturer - who's most prominent member of their design team does "Exterior Styling and Interior Ergonomic" and engineering consultant is "a leading designer of custom designs with projects having been constrcuted (sic) on four continents." - to furnish a ground tackle system sufficient for cruising the entire West coast of North and Central Americas?

And do you really believe you can increase anchoring capability by simply bolting on "a pretty nice anchor of any size" (your words)?
You sure seem fixated on that boats anchor for some reason.

And Yes, within reason you can just bolt on a larger anchor and if you want replace the rode and or chain. We're not talking about quantum leaps here. Going from say a 60 something pound anchor to say a hundred pound anchor should not require thousands of dollars of upgrades.

No, I have not studied in depth the exact anything that particular boat has for ground tackle, nore do i really care...Geez the guy doesen't even have the boat.
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:30 PM   #96
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Chris - thank you. I notice you are in a sport fisher. I was looking at a long range sport fisher once as well (later ruled out) but wanted feedback to see if you can travel along the coasts as far as you want without problems with yours?

Yep, easily enough, at least here on the eastern side. We travel in two modes: slow and cheap, or faster and expedient. ("Fast" being a relative term.) We can carry 520 gallons of diesel and 200 gallons of water, so range at slow speeds isn't an issue.

OTOH, there are times when sea states aren't "slow-friendly" for our hull form, so then we go faster. Or else when we're just town-hopping, and the destination is temporarily more important than the journey, we just get on with it.

In any case, you can't hardly move more than about 20 miles out here without being in easy reach of fuel/water stops. Even when we've been in the Caribbean or on the Pacific coast of Central America (not on our own boat), distances haven't seemed impossible to manage. I'm not familiar with distances on the West Coast, PNW, Alaska, though... so I assume that's likely different... but still manageable.

-Chris
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:43 PM   #97
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Dual thrusters and stabilizers would help with single-handing. But I'm not clear why a single-hander would want 3 staterooms - and 3 heads. The maintenance requirements of this vessel would be daunting - and painting the teak rails was no favor.
Well the OP was looking at boats up to 50 feet and ideally under $300,000 as I recall. One of those staterooms could be turned into an office or work room.

Painting the teal rails was a huge favor maintence wise if done right.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:56 PM   #98
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I always have liked the look and layout of the Defever 53. Does anyone know the real numbers on clearance and draft on these boats?
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:59 PM   #99
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Circumnavigate North America.
What are the fuel stops along the Northwest Passage?
Do you need to make prior arrangements for fuel drops etc.?

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Old 09-14-2015, 03:14 PM   #100
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Idelwild has been there / done that, plus a whole bunch more. Don't know if it's still for sale, but you'd think there would be wiggle room on the price...eventually. A tendency towards frugality is a prerequisite!

The Boat For Sale
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