What our boats say about us

[Peter B]

As I've said in other threads, the boat is every bit as important to me as the experience. Even if we were to have the most amazing experience on the planet out boating, it would not be quite as amazing if we were having it in a boat that didn't meet our aesthetic requirements. I'm not a form-follows-function person when it comes to things like cars or boats (or planes for that matter)........
The picture below is pretty much my favorite boat right now. In fact we hope to charter it next year (with its crew). While I would not want the tremendous upkeep a vessel like this requires, and while it is considerably larger than what we want or need, to me the Gikumi embodies everything I like in a boat design. Anything less is a compromise, and I'm not much on compromises when it comes to designs.

View attachment 12079

Crikey Marin, are you ok, or did you eat a bad oyster. That dream boat of your has...well...there's only one way to say it..."almost...nearly...virtually...forward raked windscreens"...! Vat hass happened...? Have you had a 'road to Damascus' conversion experience..?

 

[Moonstruck]

There are boats other than Moonstruck in the harbor? I hadn't noticed!

 

[Ruthless]

Our sundeck/cockpit Taiwanese 42' meets all the criteria, she was sold to us as a Fu Hwa but I see them on the west coast as Pacific Trawler or Nova Sundeck. 1986 under $100,000.

 

[ksanders]

"Most of us here are members of the "older classic trawler tribe" a bleach jug like a rivera or a Bayliner might do really well what we use our boats for, but most of us wouldn't be caught dead in one."

So you are willing to pay 500% to 2500% more for a boat that will offer the same water pleasures , so you can strut the dock ?

WOW!

Its funny, but the "I wouldn't be caught dead in a Bayliner(or a Rinker, or a XXXX brand)" comments always come from folks online.

They Never come from folks that have actually been on one.

The comments I get from other people at the dock are quite a bit different.

A Trawler Forum member who owned a Sea dory at the time went aboard my old 2859 several years ago. His comment was "I better not show this to my wife, She'd love it."

People walking by on the dock invaribly say "great looking boat".

Here in the Pacific Northwest taking a walk down the dock is pretty much a Bayliner model tour. Far and away the most popular boats at the harbor are Bayliners in my neck of the woods. You see the range of boats.

Old ones that look like new boats. Newer ones that are neglected. Boats from the 80's, whose owners are still having fun on them (yes Bayliners can last just like other brands )

You know, I have NEVER knocked someone elses choice in boat. I think people that own boats, especially boats sitting in a permenant slip are a sort of community. We all are in the same boat so to speak.

At the same time I have spent many hours defending the larger Bayliner boats (I've owned 5 of them) to people online that for the most part either don't even own a boat, or have no direct knowledge of what they post about so passionately about.

 

[CPseudonym]

Its funny, but the "I wouldn't be caught dead in a Bayliner(or a Rinker, or a XXXX brand)" comments always come from folks online.

The comments I get from other people at the dock are quite a bit different.

That has been my experience walking docks too. This and other forums are the only place I hear people putting down Bayliners and Sea Rays. The "Forum" reputation of these boats actually kept me from looking at these brands in my initial search.

People walking by on the dock invaribly say "great looking boat".

And they are.

Old ones that look like new boats. Newer ones that are neglected. Boats from the 80's, whose owners are still having fun on them (yes Bayliners can last just like other brands )

The neglected ones stand out in any brand. I have seen some truly trashed Grand Banks and other so-called "quality brands".

I have spent many hours defending the larger Bayliner boats (I've owned 5 of them) to people online that for the most part either don't even own a boat, or have no direct knowledge of what they post about so passionately about.

I and many others(I assume) have noticed. Some of the thickest skinned members on this forum are Bayliner owners. It seems like every week you guys get kicked in the crotch for owning a nice boat.

I also assume(from your description in other posts) that you have more "Boat Bucks" tied up in your boat than at least 80% of other TF members. Yet you never mention that as you politely defend your brand from nearly non stop bashing.

You have a nice boat Kevin and I was guilty as a newbie of making a generalization about Bayliner boats that I have never made again after looking at and driving a few. BTW I formed my initial opinion by reading the archives here.

They where obviously mass produced, especially in the smaller sizes, and mass marketed. But the same thing kills them that kills any other boat. Neglect. Neglect any boats maintenance long enough and it'll be ready for the dumpster.

 

[BaltimoreLurker]

At least for me, looks count. They don't rule, but, all else being equal, looks make a big difference.

My Com-Pac 23 and my MT 34 both, in my eyes, look like boats are supposed to look.

 

[Phil Fill]

I'll tell you one are where I'm a snob - basic seamanship. You can have the nicest boat in the harbor but if your cleat hitch looks like a dog's breakfast, I'm going to find it hard to even look you in the face.

Gee, if you are going to judge a person by the why there lines are cleat, you would not ever talk to me as my grandchildren and or wife usually cleat the lines and as long as it secured its good with me. I would never ever re cleat a line my wife did. Actually the majority of the boaters cleat the line by under locking the line, which should not be done as it can not be undone when under a strain. Just figure 8 the line unit the cleat is full or run out of line. So how it looks is not as important as function and who cleated it to me.

I have never been good at docking the Eagle, and always request assistance. I have not caused hurt/damaged, but it just not PRETTY. We use to belong to a yacht club that graded the docking. My grade was usually between 3 and 6. The reason is when we come up against the dock we move it being 40+ tons which took a lot off the points. However most said they would not want to dock the Eagle.

However the Eagle is one of the most looked at/viewed and photo boats in the Everett marina. Well, that might be because we are at the front of the marina and the first boat on the dock, but people do admire the teak bright trim and decks, and the clean white classic look. I think Bayliner are a great boat and value, but most Bayliners get concerned when the Eagle comes close and/or along side. so there is the reverse side also.

 

[psneeld]

I for one, truly and honestly hope I am never found dead aboard a bayliner- that would NOT be a good day whatsoever in the earthly sense.

Wasn't the only Bayliner knock FROM a Bayliner owner with a wink at the end?
The only think worse than slamming someone's boat too vigorously is DEFENDING YOUR choice of boats too vigorously .

 

[Marin]

Crikey Marin, are you ok, or did you eat a bad oyster. That dream boat of your has...well...there's only one way to say it..."almost...nearly...virtually...forward raked windscreens"...! Vat hass happened...? Have you had a 'road to Damascus' conversion experience..?

I love vertical pilothouse windows on a boat that is designed for them, like the Gikumi and many others. It's the forward-raked pilothouse windows when applied to recreational boats that look so silly and pretentious to me.

 

[Woodsong]

I for one, truly and honestly hope I am never found dead aboard a bayliner- that would NOT be a good day whatsoever in the earthly sense.

Wasn't the only Bayliner knock FROM a Bayliner owner with a wink at the end?
The only think worse than slamming someone's boat too vigorously is DEFENDING YOUR choice of boats too vigorously .

If you go back to the original post that started this thread it is where the comment was made about not being found dead in a bayliner.

Boats all serve different functions and are largely designed for different functions and different stages in life and different budgets. To me, whatever stage you are in, what ever function you are seeking, and whatever budget is within your reach and all the above combine to make you happy is the right boat to buy. That could be a plethera of brands and a plethera of styles. I definitely have my own personal preferences on looks and lines and quality and desires in my boats, but each I have owned have served a function in my life and my family to get us on the water and met the need we had at the time and the style of boating we were seeking.

 

[refugio]

It's the forward-raked pilothouse windows when applied to recreational boats that look so silly and pretentious to me.

The forward / reverse raked windows are a common design element in the PNW where the so-called "crabber design" was introduced by Marco (who also created the power-block) to keep their boats' windscreens from getting stove-in when they maneuvered in rough seas.

The other advantages of this design include space in the cabin, being able to position electronics above, reducing glare, and keeping the windscreen dry. It should be clear that at least a couple of these advantages have safety implications!

As with most marine technology, Europe leads the way here. DNV (Det Norske Veritas) is "an independent foundation with the purpose of safeguarding life, property, and the environment (with)...history goes back to 1864, when the foundation was established in Norway to inspect and evaluate the technical condition of Norwegian merchant vessels", and their rules for patrol boats requires the front and side windows to be reversed angled. They long ago realized that function - and safety - trumps fashion.

In any kind of waves at all on a windy day, if we are quartering into them or even heading straight into them we have the wipers going all the time.

Everyone can decide for themselves what's "silly and pretentious".

 

[refugio]

Gee, if you are going to judge a person by the why there lines are cleat, you would not ever talk to me as my grandchildren and or wife usually cleat the lines and as long as it secured its good with me.

Actually the majority of the boaters cleat the line by under locking the line, which should not be done as it can not be undone when under a strain....

PF: You clearly understand the function of the cleat hitch - to allow someone to quickly unhitch the line - one-handed - while it is under strain. Don't you also think it's your responsibility - as captain and master - to instruct your crew?

 

[alormaria]

There are no bad boats, just bad skippers.

 

[Marin]

Refugio---I have been aware of the reason behind forward raked pilothouse windows for ages and I don't dispute their value on vessels that encounter the kind of conditions that warrant them.

But a little toy recreational boat like the ones most of us have that rarely sees waves more than four feet high isn't operating under conditions where forward raked windows are going to provide any benefit at all other than perhaps the glare thing.

So to me, me being the operative word, they look silly and ruin the lines of every boat I see them on. I think they're butt-ugly on all vessels, frankly, but on the ones where their advantages are actually needed, function trumps aesthetics.

PS-- Forward raked pilothouse windows on our boat would make absolutley no difference to the spray hitting the windshield and having to be cleaned off with the wipers. I've had the privilege of going out on a 47' RNLI motor lifeboat in Fleet, England, several years ago and we were taking all kinds of spray onto the boat as we went through the waves. The boat, which has forward-raked windshield panels, had the wipers going full bore the whole time. It was the only way to see ahead.

 

[psneeld]

If you go back to the original post that started this thread it is where the comment was made about not being found dead in a bayliner.

Boats all serve different functions and are largely designed for different functions and different stages in life and different budgets. To me, whatever stage you are in, what ever function you are seeking, and whatever budget is within your reach and all the above combine to make you happy is the right boat to buy. That could be a plethera of brands and a plethera of styles. I definitely have my own personal preferences on looks and lines and quality and desires in my boats, but each I have owned have served a function in my life and my family to get us on the water and met the need we had at the time and the style of boating we were seeking.

My bad...I normally don't spend much time in threads like this so it was easy for me to skip over the comment in the first post as I usually couldn't care less about comments like that because I consider the source..

I like to poke back more at the owners as the boats are all good in some way!

 

[GarryP]

It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Moonstruck]

It's all a matter of perspective.

Loved it, Garry.

 

[refugio]

But a little toy recreational boat like the ones most of us have...isn't operating under conditions where forward raked windows are going to provide any benefit at all other than perhaps the glare thing.

Well, there's the "rain thing" which I seem to encounter quite a bit (YMMV) and for which I rarely need to use my wiper.

And then there's the "sun thing" which we don't get as much of (again, YMMV) but I'm sure glad to take the heat load off the pilothouse when it does happen (I have fabric screens over the rear windows - even though there's an overhang I can get some significant sun coming in when heading North).

And then there's the "room in the pilothouse" - my wheel is less than 24" from the front bulkhead of the PH and - with electronics overhead - I have comfortable passing distance between my full-size reclining helm chair and the settee behind.

And then there's the absence of leaking windows. I can't can't tell you how many boats I've seen with water intrusion in unprotected windows. And with wood frames? One of the all-time "nautical bad ideas" (tm). I'm in the process of refitting the Diamond SeaGlaze saloon windows - after 30 years being mostly outside they have delaminated in a several spots. The forward PH windows are, of course, virginal.

There is a downside though...dust can collect on the inside surface and I've found it necessary to Windex them every 6 months or so. But I can live with that.

 

[Marin]

I hear what you're saying and appreciate the points.

Our GB has a sufficient overhang on the front of the flying bridge to take care of a lot of the rain thing plus it has exellent wipers. As to the issue of space between the helm and the windshield there's enough there to mount anything one wants with room left over. Glare is not an issue, again due to the flying bridge overhang. And the pilothouse windows don't leak (yet) despite a near-gone seal on the middle opening window.

So on our boat, forward raked windows would accomplish nothing of any value. And even if they did, we would still think they looked horrible. I don't think we'd ever buy a boat with forward-raked windows even if everything else about the boat met our requirements to a T. There are a ton of great boats out there without them so there is no need for us to put up with a design element we both hate.

So for us it's not a function issue, it's purely an aesthetic one. And we aren't interested in entertaining any compromises in that respect--- it's either up to our standards or it's not, the operative word being "our."

 

[skipperdude]

:lol::lol:So Marin are you saying you don't like forward raked windows?:lol::lol:

SD

 

[refugio]

:lol::lol:So Marin are you saying you don't like forward raked windows?:lol::lol:

On a whim I Googled ["Grand Banks" forward raked windows], selected Images, and clicked on the 14th image...which took me to this thread:
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/wannabee-windows-2717-5.html

So not only does he <del>not like</del> hate forward raked windows, he <del>didn't like</del> hated them last year either. And that's when I noticed that the Manatee in post 82 of that thread (great Photoshop work by healhustler!) had forward raked windows, which brings us full circle.

Now, what was Emmerson's quote about consistency? I forget

 

[Marin]

:lol::lol:So Marin are you saying you don't like forward raked windows?:lol::lol:

SD

Not at all. I'm saying I hate forward raked windows.

 

[markpierce]

Marin's nightmare: having to choose between a Bruce anchor, forward-raked pilothouse windows, or going boatless.

 

[refugio]

Or a Selene versus a Bayliner.

 

[Marin]

No, a Selene vs a Fleming. Which of course the Fleming would win hands down even if the Selene had normal pilothouse windows.

 

[Marin]

Marin's nightmare: having to choose between a Bruce anchor, forward-raked pilothouse windows, or going boatless.

I'd choose the Bruce, no question, because all I'd have to do is drop that POS over the side and go buy a decent anchor. Can't change wannabe windows that easily and going boatless would be a drag.

 

[refugio]

No, a Selene vs a Fleming.

No, a Selene versus a custom-order widebody Fleming with no side decks!

 

[markpierce]

Sorry, Marin. Nightmares are irrational so you wouldn't have the option within the nightmare. The Bruce would remain your primary anchor. You'd have to wake up and then say something like "thank goodness it was only a dream."

 

[Ruthless]

haha does anyone remember the original question?

 

[Blue Heron]

My boat speaks Chinese... I have no *&@*& clue what it says about me