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Old 02-25-2013, 11:54 PM   #41
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I like the N-37. I think they are practical and work boat looking. They remind me of old Navy dive boats. In fact they would look good with a grey hull. The GHs don't do it for me though.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:07 AM   #42
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One dosn't need to be an engineer or have first hand experience to know a bus is not going to handle and otherwise perform like a sports car or even a sedan.
Well I just couldn't help myself. Back in the 60's there was a famous race car driver named Jim Clark. On a lark with some of the other drivers Clark drove a large Lorrie around Brands Hatch to with in 10 or 15 seconds of the track record. So even a bus with the right driver can go fast. Maybe that applies to boats as well.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:14 AM   #43
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I believe the GH fills a unique slot among cruising vessels that have more than enough to offer without the additional claims of any off-shore prowess.

That means the owner could never dare to stick his nose out , as weather changes , perhaps faster than the boat can flee to calm protected water.

"Stuff Happens" but on this floating house barge it had better NOT! NOT EVER!!!
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:40 AM   #44
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I bet these mirage boats have one hell of a righting arm. I don't get why the flat bottom scares people. Have any of you guys ever gone to a shipyard? Pretty much all ships have flat bottoms with rounded bilges. Cruise ships look particularly ridiculous out of the water and yet people still go on them. Sometimes you gotta do the math.

The NA for this boat went to Webb and got his master's at MIT. I bet he does just fine at math.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:34 AM   #45
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The NA for this boat went to Webb and got his master's at MIT. I bet he does just fine at math.
There you go using logic. No room for that with some folks.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:37 AM   #46
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I believe the GH fills a unique slot among cruising vessels that have more than enough to offer without the additional claims of any off-shore prowess.

That means the owner could never dare to stick his nose out , as weather changes , perhaps faster than the boat can flee to calm protected water.

"Stuff Happens" but on this floating house barge it had better NOT! NOT EVER!!!
.

How is it different in the Great Harbors than 90% of the Coastal Cruisers here on TF?

We watch the weather. We go out when its nice. We stay in port and happily enjoy the scenery when its not.

How many here actually go out in offshore conditions where there is a Small Craft Advisory? Lets be real, the prudent captain stays in port those days. I know our boats are not "small craft" and they can take SCA conditions, but its never much fun so why do it?

Someone earlier mentiond seeing a GH in 4-6' close chop and it did fine. Thats to be expected out of any coastal cruiser. Thats just an afternoon breeze, and it happens.

People need to quit underestimating the capabilities of Coastal Cruisers, just to tout that it takes a Nordhavn like vessel to go offshore. That is just not true.

It takes a FD passagemaker to reliably and safely make long passages where the voyage in between safe ports exceeds the ability to accurately forecast the weather.

Everything else is well within the capabilities of any of our boats, including the Great Harbors.

Here's an example...

People here seem to fear the Pacific Ocean. The coast lines of Washington, Oregon, and California seem to make people think they need a Nordhavn, or Krogen like boat to cruise there.

Here's two blogs, by people that have cruised the pacific coastlines for years, and had a great time. And they did it in boats just like many of ours!

Trawler Cruising (Part IV) - Home From Mexico 2009-10: March 2009

M/V DESERT VENTURE | Cruising Log for M/V DESERT VENTURE

So, please don't try to convince us that just because we don't have a Full Displacement any weather capable boat that we are harbor queens.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:08 AM   #47
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One only needs to take a look at my choice of boats here in my Avatar and know that I'd probably prefer the looks of a Great Harbor over lots of other styles.
I arrived at that conclusion immediately after reading your first post on this thread.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:29 AM   #48
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Can't comment on the seaworthiness of the Great Harbor. There was a 37' in the St. Lucie lock with me. The wind was bouncing off the lock wall. The poor guy never did get the boat over to the wall. the lock master had to rope him over one end at a time. That's a lot of top hamper.

To Eric nothing drives like a '49 Buick.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:01 AM   #49
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I think we FORGOT that GG posted/ask the question and she is looking for an ocean crossing boat, not one that could coastal cruise in nice weather? My response was meant for GG. However, that still does not change my option of the boat its still a fair weather protect water boat, that would make a great ugly live aboard dock queen. a boat I might be interested in.

I agree the A/B, the air draft ABOVE the water line vs the draft of the hull BELOW the water line is not a good ratio to use, but it’s an indication. Where as the center of gravity is more important. It appears the engine and tanks are at the water line, but does not appear to have additional ballast as many others have It would be nice if they present a cross section so you can get an idea where things are.

I noticed the #70,000 displacement is full loaded? The water and waste tanks are twice the size I would have expected, so if they where full that would added 3 to 4,000 lbs extra weight and the tanks appear to be low in the hull. So if you read close it appears the weight/ballast is in the larger tanks and should be be full?

Anyway it does not meet GG requirement.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:38 PM   #50
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the car talk portion is now split into a separate thread in off topic, since it seemed to be taking on a life of it's own...
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:11 PM   #51
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Is everyone clear on the fact that there are two styles of the GH boats? I get the impression the concerns expressed are being equally described for each type. I can definitely see that the GH series (floating condo) would have issues with windage but the N-series (work boat with aft pilot-house) I would think not nearly as much...especially those N-series without the fly-bridge.

So let me provide a caveat: I am inexperienced. I don't even own a trawler (just a small 19 ft run-a-bout) so I'm an armchair trawler-owner wannabe. The GH N-series has many favorable design characteristics (as advertised by Mirage) that I find intriguing. 1.) Supposedly unsinkable due to the Nida-core sandwiched between the fiberglass for the deck and super-structure. 2.) The ability to careen. Each prop has it's own skeg. With the flat bottom, she can be beached if needed for repairs or cleaning. Don't actually know the practicality of doing this but seems desirable if the need arises. 3.) Integral fuel tanks molded into the bottom of the boat which also serves as a a structural part for rigidity. Claim is that the hull is over 1-inch thick solid fiberglass. 4.) Shallow draft for gunk-holing. 5.) Excellent fuel economy for a twin (again advertised) with large fuel tanks (500 gal for N-37) for about a 1500 mile range. 6.) The lazarette. Large space...enough to put a chest freezer down there. 7.) Stand-up engine room (as mentioned).

There are more but I think you get the idea. I have been in conversation with an owner and he reports that (as others here have said) the N-37 is very stable at anchor and while underway. He does say she is a "wet boat" if there is any chop, spray will come over the bow due to her hull design. Other owners also say the boat is fabulous in a following sea, easily handled by the auto pilot. I'm not as fond of the Yanmar engines (no reason...I'd just rather have a pair of Lugger's) but they seem to work well.

Would I take this boat across an ocean, nope. Would I sail her to the Bahama's? Absolutely. Would I go to the Caribbean? Yeah probably but would plan it well and make sure it's the right time of the year and the right weather window. The weather window is key, I believe.

I would buy this boat, or any boat, for 90% of my intended cruising area...which for us would be mostly coastal or inland. If I was going to cross oceans as a norm, I would want a Nordie no question.

So what it's worth from a dreamer, that's my two-cents.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:48 PM   #52
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Well said, Wade. On a visit to Green Cove Springs, I was lucky enough to pick a time when all the models were present. I thought the GH would be my choice, but I really preferred the N-Series, especially after walking into the engine room, the lazarette, and the Boson's locker. I may get back to Green Cove later this year, and possibly charter one just for the St. Johns river experience.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:58 PM   #53
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Galaxy Girl,
The boat looks like it would be a great livaboard with a lot of room. I cannot comment on its seaworthiness but I can comment on crossing oceans. Like many guys on this forum I'm an ex navy guy and crossed the Atlantic many times on a 450' ship that had a 65' beam and that is about the only thing i would want to cross an ocean in. You really need to give up the dream of cruising to Europe on your own hull. You may leave in nice weather, but one thing I can guarantee is that sometime after you leave port and head east you will hit 30' plus seas. I have many photos that I took of Aircraft carriers with the flight deck awash on otherwise beautiful days. those flight decks are between 50' to 70' up. I took these photo's because I was 150' away unreping with them. Buy a nice coastal cruiser, take it to the islands and when you want to go to Europe, do what any sane person would do: buy a plane ticket!!!
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:07 PM   #54
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Greetings,
Ms. GG. Further to Mr. johnma's comments, which I agree with...How about getting a coastal cruiser (CC) and if you have the inclination to boat in Europe, ship the boat over. The price difference between a CC and a blue water boat boat may leave you with enough spare cash to do so comfortably. Just another option...
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:21 AM   #55
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"We watch the weather. We go out when its nice. We stay in port and happily enjoy the scenery when its not."

An ocean voyaging boat does not have this luxury.

A gaggle of Nordhavens were able to put across the Atlantic , with experts aviliable at all times to solve problems and swim to rescue as required.

Anyone ever take one of these box barges anywhere, where the water is Blue , not Brown??
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:34 AM   #56
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It might be useful to talk about what differentiates a coastal trawler from an "ocean crossing capable" boat. We recently decided we want to expand our cruising ground from the coast to the world, and went through the process of examining the differences. Here's a quick sketch of what we came up with.

Good Pilot House: Obviously to make a long passage you need to run 24x7, and this introduces the importance of a pilot house. It's great to have a place that's focused on operating the boat without distractions from people watch TV or whatever. But it also needs to have room for a few people to hang out if desired. And very importantly it needs to be light-isolated from the rest of the boat. You don't want to lose your night vision every time someone needs to move about the boat, and you don't want to constrain what other people do on the boat. A lot of pilot houses don't meet this last criteria. It's also really nice to have a bunk of some sort up there so the off-watch are right at hand if needed.

Seaworthy: This takes a lot of forms and is a very subjective thing. But in general, I think there are two considerations. First is that the average sea state that you run through is likely to be more severe, and you want to be comfortable. Stabilizers are a must. Once you have had them, you will never go back. Weight also matters. The second, and more important thing is that you will be making passages that are longer than the weather forecasting window, so you need to be prepared for rough seas, and the boat needs to be able to handle it. Some boats are built more solidly than others. Some have hatches and glass that can take more or less of a pounding than others. Some locate dinghies where they are safe and some where they will surely be lost.

Redundancy: This takes many forms. Propulsion is probably the most important since towing services aren't available in the middle of the ocean. Some people prefer twin engines, and some prefer a main and wing engine. But more than one engine of some kind reduces your risk of being dead in the water. Then the list goes on. Fuel systems need to be clean, well maintained, and with LOTS of filters. Nearly every account I've read of a power boat getting into trouble traces back to fuel - typically settled crap in the tanks getting stirred up in rough weather, taking out the engines. When you start plugging filters, you are likely to plug a lot of them, so have a case or two on boat, not a filter or two. Water too. if you want to maintain the comfort of a power boat on a long voyage, you need a lot of water which means a water maker. These can be finicky too, and you need to know what you'll do if it totally breaks. Redundant electronics, auto pilots, pumps, etc. Pretty much every Nordhavn gets equipped with fully redundant auto pilots. Manual steering in the wrong kind of seas is exhausting. There are lots and lots of other systems on a boat, and you need to go through a what-if-it-fails exercise on each one. I'm going through it now on the boat we are building and it's a 5 page document just listing each system and a one liner about how to handle it.

Range: If you just want to play in the Atlantic, about 2000nm is needed. For the Pacific it's more like 2700nm. And that needs to account for slower progress in bad weather, currents, mishaps, etc. plus another good margin of error. 10% reserve is often talked about, but I like to see more. Range means carrying lots of fuel and going slow for the best MPG.

One simple test of a boat/brand is to see how common it is for people with a particular boat to do crossings. If it happens all the time you can be pretty sure the boat is capable. If not, it doesn't mean it's not capable - it just means you need to do your homework more carefully.

Under the circumstances where the original poster has little to no boating experience and wants to jump in and cross oceans with her 5 little kids, I would suggest she only consider well-proven ocean going boats. Boats that do this all the time. That way most of the boat issues will have been worked out for you by others, and you will only be left with your own learning curve to become a competent mariner.

They have probably already been recommended to you, but I can suggest two things to read. First is Voyaging Under Power by Robert Beebe. The forth edition was just released, so be sure to get that one. You should also read the blogs, and I think there is a book, of the voyage of Eric and Christi Gribb. With little to no boating experience, they bought a 43' boat and went around the world and lived to tell about it.

One last point. To me there is a big difference between two consenting adults like the Gribbs deciding to go around the world with no significant prior boating experience, and someone with similar lack of experience taking 5 children along. In your case, I would liken it to a captain taking paying passengers where the passengers have an assumption of competence in the captain. This assumption of competence comes in the form of their USCG license which permits them to operate a passenger vessel. If I were you, I would hold myself to no less of a standard than that captain, and would only venture off shore with young children if I had all the same qualifications as a licensed captain, or better yet, held a captains license.

If you held yourself to that standard, and if you were out in your boat every single day for all of July and August (the prime boating season in New England and the time when your kids are not in school), it would take you six years to meet the minimum qualifications for the lowest level of license the USCG issues. To be licensed to carry those passengers across the ocean requires the first license, plus 12 more years, 9 of which have to be off-shore. Just something to think about as you take others on this adventure of yours.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:00 AM   #57
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I think rational thought does not apply in this situation.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:43 AM   #58
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I think rational thought does not apply in this situation.
I have mixed feelings on it. People pushing the envelope and being determined is what moves society forward, creates invention, and all that good stuff. For that I really admire GalaxyGirl and want to help in any way I can.

But it's a fine line between pushing the envelop and being reckless. To many, any form of pushing the envelope will be viewed as reckless, yet to others it's the way life should be lived. To each his own.

Where I start to have a problem is when people's individual choices start to impact others. This comes up every time someone solos around the world and needs an expensive rescue at sea. The public bears the cost of an individual's high-risk adventure.

I think Eric and Christi Gribb are a great example of people pushing the envelope, stretching themselves personally, while balancing and containing risk. And other than the possibility of a rescue at sea that surely would have received criticism, the risk was theirs and nobody else's.

There also is a big difference between understanding risks and challenges, mitigating them, and then choosing to move forward, versus going into something completely blind to the risks.

But when you are blind to the risks and challenges, yet dragging others along who are unable to assess the risk and are depending on you to keep them save, I start to have a problem.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:49 AM   #59
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Uh, guys, GG has already said she's planning to hire a competent captain.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:53 AM   #60
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Good Pilot House: Obviously to make a long passage you need to run 24x7, and this introduces the importance of a pilot house. It's great to have a place that's focused on operating the boat without distractions from people watch TV or whatever. But it also needs to have room for a few people to hang out if desired. And very importantly it needs to be light-isolated from the rest of the boat. You don't want to lose your night vision every time someone needs to move about the boat, and you don't want to constrain what other people do on the boat. A lot of pilot houses don't meet this last criteria. It's also really nice to have a bunk of some sort up there so the off-watch are right at hand if needed..
Dashew's designs and sail boaters would argue this. Many builders have perched a PH up top for sales while ignoring stability concerns along with other inordinate weight up top thus neutering the seaworthiness label. Many of the perched vessels get undeserved kudos and heavy breathing for the wrong reasons - witness the top heavy thin windowed boats on this thread being considered for real ocean travel - something the designer never intended.
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