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Old 07-25-2014, 11:05 PM   #21
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I would love to see a designer come up with a steel boat where the interior/deck/house could be unfastened from the hull and lifted out for easy access to the hull and maintenance when required.
Already happens in The Netherlands.

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Old 07-26-2014, 12:16 AM   #22
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What can Yanks learn from the Dutch?

(Posted tool info here by mistake)

Not sure I'd want to pull that deck and house after wiring gets connected!
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:27 AM   #23
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I suspect that's a new build.
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:11 AM   #24
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Regardless of the forever claims made by the epoxt paint folks , a steel boat needs to be blasted to ,water white, every 15 to 20 years and properly painted Inside and Out .

The wiring should be able to lift with the deck , and the plumbing hoses simply cut to be replaced.

It would only be a matter of thinking it thru Before building , although lazy owners might screw up the works adding their goodies over the years.
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:47 AM   #25
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Regardless of the forever claims made by the epoxt paint folks , a steel boat needs to be blasted to ,water white, every 15 to 20 years and properly painted Inside and Out .

The wiring should be able to lift with the deck , and the plumbing hoses simply cut to be replaced.

It would only be a matter of thinking it thru Before building , although lazy owners might screw up the works adding their goodies over the years.
good points...still would be an engineering trick to make it fit together...both assemblies (hull and inner) rigid enough to hold their shape.

Yet light enough for a smaller steel vessel and yet still easy enough to take apart and put back together so as the cost of doing it doesn't exceed just another well built steel boat that is designed to be disassembled enough to do what you say on a 15-20 year sched.
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Old 07-26-2014, 09:46 AM   #26
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Here's something I saved from a well regarded. experienced marine author on foaming the interior of steel boats...


"Prospective owners might want to do some research on urethane foam. It is not impermeable to moisture, it may be full of fire retardant chemicals that will outgas forever and create a host of health issues (look up Chinese drywall) and if not treated is as bad as a fiberglass hull when a fire occurs with regard to flame spread and toxic gas production.

The areas where moisture from condensation reaches the hull will be invisible until the rust breaks through outside the hull. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, especially when it is formulated and applied in China."
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:04 PM   #27
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Seahorse Marine has steel Diesel Ducks that are made in China and can be shipped to the US but the cost of shipping and commissioning work is about $100,000! Some owners are buying in China and living in Asia for a few years on the $100K before sailing the boat back to the US. $100k to ship the boat to the US is expensive, especially compared to the $500-600K boat purchase price.
I do love those SHM Ducks - there are several Blogs that chronicle SHM Duck owners' return trip in their new Duck:
Shearwater
DavidEllis

...but I think that $100k has more to do with Uncle Sam gettin his share when a new unused boat lands on the dock rather than the pure shipping costs. No?

Not sure how this would be different for a used boat.

Anyone buy a used boat somewhere else and bring it back in? Same tax issues as importing a new boat?

Anyone ever have their boat shipped over an ocean on one of those services? Any idea on rough cost?
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:23 PM   #28
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Last time I got a quote for a Krogen 42 it was $25,000 US from the US to the Med. Past experience in getting quotes is that you can save a good amount if you go at a time of year when the freighters are delivering boats in the opposite direction than that which you are traveling. For example going to the Med from North America in the fall when the bulk of the traffic is from the Med to North America or the Caribbean.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:10 PM   #29
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Fuel is cheap in the USA.

Don't need no FD.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:25 PM   #30
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Here's something I saved from a well regarded. experienced marine author on foaming the interior of steel boats...


"Prospective owners might want to do some research on urethane foam. It is not impermeable to moisture, it may be full of fire retardant chemicals that will outgas forever and create a host of health issues (look up Chinese drywall) and if not treated is as bad as a fiberglass hull when a fire occurs with regard to flame spread and toxic gas production.

The areas where moisture from condensation reaches the hull will be invisible until the rust breaks through outside the hull. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, especially when it is formulated and applied in China."
Burning of the foam is problematic since the foam is buried between the hull and finished walls. If the finished walls have burned enough to expose the foam, I would think flame spread and toxic gas production would be the least of the crew's worries. The fire burning the material in the cabin would kill anyone on board before the walls burned through to expose the foam.

One can have the foam painted to further protect the foam from flame, water and water vapor. Some closed cell foams will not burn in any case, just char, but I guess that gets back to his worry about out gassing. Closed foam should not absorb water unless left in water but if one was really concerned one could have the foam painted.

Did he say if the hull rusts after being painted with epoxy?

Certainly covering up a bare steel hull, without rust protection, is asking for trouble. People have been successfully using epoxy paints and expanded foam for decades now. Closed cell foam is the key. I have read of people using all sorts of material to insulate but they seem problematic to me since the material did not prevent air from getting to the hull. The people who have done this swear it works which tells me the epoxy paints are protecting the hull interior.

The Dashew FPB boats are using a sheet foam product that is interesting but expensive. It is some sort of closed cell foam that come in sheets/rolls. The issue with a sheet product is making sure there is complete contact and coverage of the hull to prevent air migration to the metal. Seems like the only way one could do that would be to have layers of the stuff. With a spray closed foam it is much easier to cover up everything. Keeping air away from the hull to prevent condensation is the goal.

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Old 07-26-2014, 01:32 PM   #31
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Fuel is cheap in the USA.

Don't need no FD.
Eric

Michigan City Indiana's municipal marina has empty slips, for decades there was a waiting list. Again and again I have friends who got rid of their planing power boats in part because the boat cost too much to operate. No visible reduction in sail boats.

Its a 34 nm trip to Chicago, thus 68 nm roundtrip. Friend with a 34 ft SeaRay spent over $400 in gasoline. Bay Pelican making the same trip would spend $85 if I bought the diesel from the marina. The SeaRay owner no longer has his boat in the water.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:43 PM   #32
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Eric

Michigan City Indiana's municipal marina has empty slips, for decades there was a waiting list. Again and again I have friends who got rid of their planing power boats in part because the boat cost too much to operate. No visible reduction in sail boats.

Its a 34 nm trip to Chicago, thus 68 nm roundtrip. Friend with a 34 ft SeaRay spent over $400 in gasoline. Bay Pelican making the same trip would spend $85 if I bought the diesel from the marina. The SeaRay owner no longer has his boat in the water.


I would think there would be enough folks who would rather not burn their money - even if they had enough of it they could if we wanted to!
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:45 PM   #33
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I do love those SHM Ducks - there are several Blogs that chronicle SHM Duck owners' return trip in their new Duck:
Shearwater
DavidEllis

...but I think that $100k has more to do with Uncle Sam gettin his share when a new unused boat lands on the dock rather than the pure shipping costs. No?

Not sure how this would be different for a used boat.

Anyone buy a used boat somewhere else and bring it back in? Same tax issues as importing a new boat?

Anyone ever have their boat shipped over an ocean on one of those services? Any idea on rough cost?
I looked up the cost to import a boat into the US and the cost was so low I didn't believe what I read. The duty rate is 1.5% of the boat value, https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...-into-the-u.s.. That is the US import fee and a state may hit you up for more money. You will have to pay that import fee irregardless of when you import the boat but if one was in Asia for a few years you would have a used boat vs new which should lower the tax value. Course, then one gets to argue with the Tax Man over the value of the boat.

I think the shipping companies know they have you by the short hair when shipping a boat so they charge accordingly. The last cost I saw to ship a 40 foot container from China to the US west cost was about $2,000. So if I wanted to ship a 50+ foot boat the boat cradle would take up the space of 6 containers which would cost $12,000. The cradle will cost something and I am sure there are other paperwork costs but it should not cost that much to ship a boat, yet it does.

The companies that only transport yachts really have the market cornered. I saw some report recently that two of the shipping companies have merged which further reduces price competition.

I have read those two blogs and they are quite good.

We went to TrawlerFest in WA in May and had an awesome trip. Well beyond our expectations. The Shearwater was at the show so we met the owner, designer, builder, and people buying/building Ducks. We were invited to help sail the Shearwater from the show to its home marina which was very nice to say the least.

Later,
Dan
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:45 PM   #34
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Just a few observations.
The reason the Dutch favour steel boats is that their canals freeze over in the winter and that can crush a fibreglass boat.
Many are lifted out and kept in heated boat sheds ashore over winter.
Linssen is a fine boat but one of the more expensive models.
The Dutch boat builders are very helpful and will certainly wire the boat to US standards if required.
Good add! Thanks! Hadn't thought about freezing water as a reason to go steel.

Are there any North American dealers of Dutch boats? Just curious.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:52 PM   #35
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I looked up the cost to import a boat into the US and the cost was so low I didn't believe what I read. The duty rate is 1.5% of the boat value, https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...-into-the-u.s.. That is the US import fee and a state may hit you up for more money. You will have to pay that import fee irregardless of when you import the boat but if one was in Asia for a few years you would have a used boat vs new which should lower the tax value. Course, then one gets to argue with the Tax Man over the value of the boat.

I think the shipping companies know they have you by the short hair when shipping a boat so they charge accordingly. The last cost I saw to ship a 40 foot container from China to the US west cost was about $2,000. So if I wanted to ship a 50+ foot boat the boat cradle would take up the space of 6 containers which would cost $12,000. The cradle will cost something and I am sure there are other paperwork costs but it should not cost that much to ship a boat, yet it does.

The companies that only transport yachts really have the market cornered. I saw some report recently that two of the shipping companies have merged which further reduces price competition.

I have read those two blogs and they are quite good.

We went to TrawlerFest in WA in May and had an awesome trip. Well beyond our expectations. The Shearwater was at the show so we met the owner, designer, builder, and people buying/building Ducks. We were invited to help sail the Shearwater from the show to its home marina which was very nice to say the least.

Later,
Dan
when ii sold my trawler it went to AUS.from fort laudadale and the cost was 28000 $ plus insurance another 3000$
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:03 PM   #36
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Good add! Thanks! Hadn't thought about freezing water as a reason to go steel.

Are there any North American dealers of Dutch boats? Just curious.
In fact its NOT, many many GRP boats stay in the water during the winter and don't freeze apart. We just like steel as a traditional building material for motor yachts. I estimates that over 80 percent of the sailing yachts in The Netherlands are build from GRP.
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:05 PM   #37
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Burning of the foam is problematic since the foam is buried between the hull and finished walls. If the finished walls have burned enough to expose the foam,...............

edited for brevity........

d be to have layers of the stuff. With a spray closed foam it is much easier to cover up everything. Keeping air away from the hull to prevent condensation is the goal.

Later,
Dan
He did say urethane foam....

Not all the foam would probably be covers by walls and there are probably many channels for gasses to travel through. The same exposed foam probably in bilge areas may subjected to a fuel fed fire.

Eventually a small spot where even properly applied rust preventative would fail and covered with a less than easy removable foam begs maintenance a little too late sometimes.

Again...not my writings just my interpretation of them.

My cut is I have been on MANY steel vessels with poorly applied foam even over a good paint job and it's not a pretty sight down the road.

I also ripped out pretty good steel fuel tanks because they were covered in foam and where moisture got underneath...the rust looked scary enough to me to cut them out and replace them.

The thought of a boat being maybe days away from a large number of pinhole leaks is why I posted my thoughts on a completely removable interior. Till that happens I'm good with glass.
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Old 07-26-2014, 05:15 PM   #38
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He did say urethane foam....

Not all the foam would probably be covers by walls and there are probably many channels for gasses to travel through. The same exposed foam probably in bilge areas may subjected to a fuel fed fire.
Yes he did, but I think many see foam, and think all foam is the same.

I find it very unlikely that a fuel fire will not kill me before the foam catches fire, if the foam can catch fire. The author has set up the problem such that foam is going to kill/hurt you if you use foam that will not burn or it will kill/hurt you if the foam catches fire. His either or situation is wrong.

Given all of the other flammable stuff that would be exposed to the flames from burning fuel in the bilge, a bit of foam is not that big of a deal. Assuming the foam actually is flammable in the first place.

How well would the FRP boat handle a fuel fire in the bilge? Would the burning FRP be better for me than the burning foam?

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Eventually a small spot where even properly applied rust preventative would fail and covered with a less than easy removable foam begs maintenance a little too late sometimes.
Why would several layers of epoxy paint allow a small spot of rust to develop? The foam protects the paint from physical damage so if the paint is applied correctly why would there ever be rust?

The flip side of the question, what does one do to prevent a steel hull from rusting? What other product will work? The best I have seen is to epoxy paint the hull and apply foam insulation. If there is a better technique I would love to know about it.

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My cut is I have been on MANY steel vessels with poorly applied foam even over a good paint job and it's not a pretty sight down the road.

I also ripped out pretty good steel fuel tanks because they were covered in foam and where moisture got underneath...the rust looked scary enough to me to cut them out and replace them.

The thought of a boat being maybe days away from a large number of pinhole leaks is why I posted my thoughts on a completely removable interior. Till that happens I'm good with glass.
Where the hulls and tanks using closed cell foam over epoxy paint? Just putting foam over the steel is likely to be problematic.

How many metal boats, using epoxy paints and closed cell foam, have developed pin hole leaks from rust? Are Dutch steel boats sinking and clogging up their ports and water ways as we speak?

How many FRP boats have problems with blisters, soaked cores, failing structure/keels, leaky decks, delamination, etc.?

Using aluminum would be danged interesting since one would not have to worry about rust or paint, but the material has its issues as well.

Later,
Dan
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Old 07-26-2014, 05:39 PM   #39
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OK....you missed some of the points and now have created your own...

just deleted a longer post because I posted what a highly respected author wrote as a caution to metal boat purchasers/owners....not to debate what material is better....beat it up at will...
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:57 AM   #40
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Just to add more grist to the mill.
My brother has built 2 steel boats and uses this method.
A new steel hull is allowed to scale, shot blasted and after thorough rapid cleaning is painted with 2 pack epoxy paint. Expanded polyurethane foam is then sprayed over all the interior down to the internal waterline. The expanded polyurethane foam used in boat building is certified fireproof.
The vessel is covered in a well ventilated place and the foam is allowed to gas for 3 weeks before trimming back the foam and commencing fit out.
We share skills in the fit out with other people, I do engineering, another friend does cabinet making, etc. etc.
No problems with rust on either boat and excellent insulation for noise/heat/condensation.
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