Water Tanks - Repair/Replace - Opinions
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Capt Jack
Senior Member
So I have not seen generator in any of your pics or descriptions. Mine is right between the water tanks on the centerline and would be very much in the way if removing the water tanks. Do you have a generator and if so where did they mount it?
Thanks
John
Thanks
John
CarlinLA
Senior Member
Hello John...
No generator in Satori...
But - there may have been one in the past as there are two open through hulls thru the stern that currently go nowhere. Waterline is about 4-inches below the lower through hull.
As part of this lazerette remodel the open thru-hulls will be remedied - by a means of which I have not figured out yet (wood plug hammered in then duct taped? bronze cap brazed over the exterior opening? replace mushroom through hull with deckfill and cap?)
The through hulls are to starboard implying whatever it was - was in the aft starboard corner.
Bet having the generator is a blessing in many situations.
Carl
No generator in Satori...
But - there may have been one in the past as there are two open through hulls thru the stern that currently go nowhere. Waterline is about 4-inches below the lower through hull.
As part of this lazerette remodel the open thru-hulls will be remedied - by a means of which I have not figured out yet (wood plug hammered in then duct taped? bronze cap brazed over the exterior opening? replace mushroom through hull with deckfill and cap?)
The through hulls are to starboard implying whatever it was - was in the aft starboard corner.
Bet having the generator is a blessing in many situations.
Carl
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. CLA. I wouldn't trust a wooden bung and duct tap (too bush league) nor would I braze over the opening (too permanent-may find a use down the road). How about a simple bronze cap over the inside of the fitting until you get around to removing the fitting and glassing over the hole or, in fact, using it for ?????
Mr. CLA. I wouldn't trust a wooden bung and duct tap (too bush league) nor would I braze over the opening (too permanent-may find a use down the road). How about a simple bronze cap over the inside of the fitting until you get around to removing the fitting and glassing over the hole or, in fact, using it for ?????
C lectric
Guru
Yes, cap them properly with a bronze pipe cap. The thread mismatch won;t matter in this application. Goop up the threads with a good sealer and as RTF suggested they will be well sealed and available in the future.
If it is above the water line even if you never find a use it will be around as long as the rest of the boat.
If it is above the water line even if you never find a use it will be around as long as the rest of the boat.
CarlinLA
Senior Member
May go with the cap... good suggestions...
Now... where to procure such?
The lower is 2-inch and the upper is 1-1/2 inch...
Have gotten close enough yet to see the barb situation
Is there such a thing as a "hose material end cap"?
PVC?
Now... where to procure such?
The lower is 2-inch and the upper is 1-1/2 inch...
Have gotten close enough yet to see the barb situation
Is there such a thing as a "hose material end cap"?
PVC?
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
Hello Trawler Types...
Progress on the switch to plastic water tanks on Satori.
Port tank is on board and operational.
Did destroy the first 1-1/2 inch drain plug trying to stop it from leaking. The technician at Ronco had told me to use a lot of teflon tape but I only used one lap... on the replacement plug I used five laps - no leak.
Just connected the waterline in a temporary manner pending install of the starboard tank.
Progress on the switch to plastic water tanks on Satori.
Port tank is on board and operational.
Did destroy the first 1-1/2 inch drain plug trying to stop it from leaking. The technician at Ronco had told me to use a lot of teflon tape but I only used one lap... on the replacement plug I used five laps - no leak.
Just connected the waterline in a temporary manner pending install of the starboard tank.
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
Ok, wanted to post these pics seperate as I am asking for observations about the method of install.
I used caulk.
Perhaps a more traditional install would have used epoxy.
I was concerned about the irregular surface on the botom of the pads, and I was unwilling to rebuild the pads to ensure a smooth mating surface, so I choose to go with a bonding caulk as it filled the irregular surface.
(No worries - will add a block to inboard pad after the glue cures)
Also, maybe not related to the caulk - but gluing the pad to a glossy painted surface... will the pad adhere with enough strength hold back the 300-lbs of a full tank in a seaway? We shall see...
I used caulk.
Perhaps a more traditional install would have used epoxy.
I was concerned about the irregular surface on the botom of the pads, and I was unwilling to rebuild the pads to ensure a smooth mating surface, so I choose to go with a bonding caulk as it filled the irregular surface.
(No worries - will add a block to inboard pad after the glue cures)
Also, maybe not related to the caulk - but gluing the pad to a glossy painted surface... will the pad adhere with enough strength hold back the 300-lbs of a full tank in a seaway? We shall see...
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
On to the starboard side...
Trying this side with only removing the inboard pad.
Just as on the port side, time and corrosion had conspired to damsge the aluminum tank. Not as bad as the port tank, but any leak is intollerable.
Trying this side with only removing the inboard pad.
Just as on the port side, time and corrosion had conspired to damsge the aluminum tank. Not as bad as the port tank, but any leak is intollerable.
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
Ok, with access... I noticed the underside of the aft deck has delaminated.
And water has been passing through the area including the little 2-inch beams. when I removed a screw from the beam it came out wet.
This is the area where the base of the flybridge ladder mounts - perhaps the ladder mounting screws did it in.
Not much I can do about it now. perhaps finding this simply reinforces that next year in retirement I'll have to make a much more serious effort to seal the teak decks or remove, seal, and resurface with an impervious layer.
Perhaps some emergency triage to the ladder mounting screws and adjoining teak deck can slow the ingress of water...
The optimest notes that in spite the damage, the wet screw was still tight in the beam wood. Perhaps its only the core that is melting.
Another shining moment for Taiwan trawler construction... for whatever reason there is a couple square feet of bi-axiel fabric laid into the hull back there - while everthing around it is chopped strand - ???
Also - I get that adding the beams contributes to making a diaphram that has integral strength - but dont you think that adding a girder that tied into that bulkhead would have been a dollars worth of teak that woukd have added significant strength to the deck system? Adding something to span those beams to the bulkhead maybe part of the triage repair.
And water has been passing through the area including the little 2-inch beams. when I removed a screw from the beam it came out wet.
This is the area where the base of the flybridge ladder mounts - perhaps the ladder mounting screws did it in.
Not much I can do about it now. perhaps finding this simply reinforces that next year in retirement I'll have to make a much more serious effort to seal the teak decks or remove, seal, and resurface with an impervious layer.
Perhaps some emergency triage to the ladder mounting screws and adjoining teak deck can slow the ingress of water...
The optimest notes that in spite the damage, the wet screw was still tight in the beam wood. Perhaps its only the core that is melting.
Another shining moment for Taiwan trawler construction... for whatever reason there is a couple square feet of bi-axiel fabric laid into the hull back there - while everthing around it is chopped strand - ???
Also - I get that adding the beams contributes to making a diaphram that has integral strength - but dont you think that adding a girder that tied into that bulkhead would have been a dollars worth of teak that woukd have added significant strength to the deck system? Adding something to span those beams to the bulkhead maybe part of the triage repair.
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jungpeter
Guru
Hi CarlinLA,
In your latest posts, you've been soliciting comments on your water tank installation. YIKES! Not too sure you're going to want to hear my comments, but since you asked:
a. Plastic tanks are subject to creep, particularly after sitting full on a not perfectly flat surface, such as your hull bottom. And creep can lead to failure, particularly if there are point loads on the tank. So, in my opinion, as you have space remaining above the tanks, I would council removal of the plastic tanks, and starting over. Yup, not what you want to hear, but way cheaper in the long run, and way better all around. I suggest building a wooden box, constructed from 3/4" MARINE plywood, with a 2" sill around the base. Like an inverted shoebox top. Carefully seal the box with WEST epoxy or equivalent. Next, grind out all the paint you've so laboriously applied in way of the water tanks, to bare fiberglass. Then, bed the tank bases in a thickened epoxy slurry to the hull bottom. Now, when the tanks are in place inside the bases, they are constrained from motion by the box sides. And remember, 50 gal tanks weigh about 350 lbs when full. You DON'T want them sliding around in a seaway. Strapping them down to the tank bases is suggested as well, using something non-metallic for straps, carefully padded at the corners.
b. Your current method of securing the tanks is way-scary. Use of what appears to be household bathroom caulk as an adhesive, apparently against enamel paint to hold the tank in place, is a prelude to failure. At best, there appears to be ~2" of space athwartships between the tank and the cockpit support being used to secure the tank. As installed, the tank will be free to move athwartships every time the boat rolls. A full plastic tank sliding against a rough chopper-gunned fiberglass boat bottom won't last long. And at worst, should violent rolling cause the tank to impact the deck support and fail the "adhesive", you'll find yourself trying to corral a 350 lb. beast at the worst possible time, with a failed cockpit floor to boot.
c. I suspect your boat needs those vertical posts to secure the cockpit floors. Again, bedding them with bathroom caulk is inadvisable. Remove the posts, clean off the caulk, grind the paint to bare fiberglass, and re-bed using thickened epoxy. Better yet, re-design the posts to enable the bases to be firmly attached to the hull bottom, but still allow the posts to be easily removable when you next need to access this part of the hull.
Cheaper in the long run? Yup. You can pay now to do a sound installation, or pay way more in the future to either repair yet another failed water tank (at best), or fix severe damage caused by the tank sliding around in a seaway, or discounting the sales price of the boat by the $$ needed to fix your current installation to the next owner's satisfaction before he buys the boat from you. Obviously your choice, but having gone through your exact same situation (on a different brand of boat however), I come down on the "fix it right in the first place" side of THIS issue.
Regards,
Pete
In your latest posts, you've been soliciting comments on your water tank installation. YIKES! Not too sure you're going to want to hear my comments, but since you asked:
a. Plastic tanks are subject to creep, particularly after sitting full on a not perfectly flat surface, such as your hull bottom. And creep can lead to failure, particularly if there are point loads on the tank. So, in my opinion, as you have space remaining above the tanks, I would council removal of the plastic tanks, and starting over. Yup, not what you want to hear, but way cheaper in the long run, and way better all around. I suggest building a wooden box, constructed from 3/4" MARINE plywood, with a 2" sill around the base. Like an inverted shoebox top. Carefully seal the box with WEST epoxy or equivalent. Next, grind out all the paint you've so laboriously applied in way of the water tanks, to bare fiberglass. Then, bed the tank bases in a thickened epoxy slurry to the hull bottom. Now, when the tanks are in place inside the bases, they are constrained from motion by the box sides. And remember, 50 gal tanks weigh about 350 lbs when full. You DON'T want them sliding around in a seaway. Strapping them down to the tank bases is suggested as well, using something non-metallic for straps, carefully padded at the corners.
b. Your current method of securing the tanks is way-scary. Use of what appears to be household bathroom caulk as an adhesive, apparently against enamel paint to hold the tank in place, is a prelude to failure. At best, there appears to be ~2" of space athwartships between the tank and the cockpit support being used to secure the tank. As installed, the tank will be free to move athwartships every time the boat rolls. A full plastic tank sliding against a rough chopper-gunned fiberglass boat bottom won't last long. And at worst, should violent rolling cause the tank to impact the deck support and fail the "adhesive", you'll find yourself trying to corral a 350 lb. beast at the worst possible time, with a failed cockpit floor to boot.
c. I suspect your boat needs those vertical posts to secure the cockpit floors. Again, bedding them with bathroom caulk is inadvisable. Remove the posts, clean off the caulk, grind the paint to bare fiberglass, and re-bed using thickened epoxy. Better yet, re-design the posts to enable the bases to be firmly attached to the hull bottom, but still allow the posts to be easily removable when you next need to access this part of the hull.
Cheaper in the long run? Yup. You can pay now to do a sound installation, or pay way more in the future to either repair yet another failed water tank (at best), or fix severe damage caused by the tank sliding around in a seaway, or discounting the sales price of the boat by the $$ needed to fix your current installation to the next owner's satisfaction before he buys the boat from you. Obviously your choice, but having gone through your exact same situation (on a different brand of boat however), I come down on the "fix it right in the first place" side of THIS issue.
Regards,
Pete
CarlinLA
Senior Member
Great feedback... will need to re-boot the install...
a. That the hull is not flat bothered me too... plywood deck forthcoming... not by the standard you describe though. Will take advantage of the adjacent bulkhead for a portion of securing the platform
b. Regarding the strength of the glue... true - went to the web and discovered that latex caulk is good for about 200-psi shear strength where as epoxy starts at 500 and can go to 3000. One could debate whether you need 3000 psi against a 300-lb tank... It was the surface irregularities that drove me to the caulk solution.
c. Good approach but too much for me... won't be grinding the chopped mat flat for a perfect shear-worthy fit... back to the don't-need-3000-psi logic.
Cost is not really an issue as I am doing this myself as a hobby - just want to avoid the failure mode you described.
Carl
a. That the hull is not flat bothered me too... plywood deck forthcoming... not by the standard you describe though. Will take advantage of the adjacent bulkhead for a portion of securing the platform
b. Regarding the strength of the glue... true - went to the web and discovered that latex caulk is good for about 200-psi shear strength where as epoxy starts at 500 and can go to 3000. One could debate whether you need 3000 psi against a 300-lb tank... It was the surface irregularities that drove me to the caulk solution.
c. Good approach but too much for me... won't be grinding the chopped mat flat for a perfect shear-worthy fit... back to the don't-need-3000-psi logic.
Cost is not really an issue as I am doing this myself as a hobby - just want to avoid the failure mode you described.
Carl
Capt Jack
Senior Member
Ok, with access... I noticed the underside of the aft deck has delaminated.
And water has been passing through the area including the little 2-inch beams. when I removed a screw from the beam it came out wet.
This is the area where the base of the flybridge ladder mounts - perhaps the ladder mounting screws did it in.
I found a soft spot on Salty between the where ladder mounts and the deck drain hole was piped at the aft corner of the main cabin. I needed to redo the drain system anyway so my solution was to cut out the top layer of fiberglass deck (thankfully, Salty does not have teak decks), remove the wet inner layer of plywood, and fill with West system epoxy. I then topped with thickened epoxy so I could get the right slope for drainage, then sand to finish. I am still in the sanding phase of the job and will finish by painting to match the surrounding areas. Fortunately I caught it early and it was a reasonably small area - about 12 inches square.
On the flybridge I have a larger area to deal with around where the access hatch for the ladder is. I am finding most of that is soft and I will have to tackle it in a similar fashion. Such is the nature of 30+ year old boats. What am I saying - I am well beyond that and have some repair work done and more needed too
John
CarlinLA
Senior Member
A bit of a related topic for this post.
Shining up the diamond plate from the deck in the lazzerette.
I had considered the opportunity to replace the water tanks as an opportunity to refinish the laz too. The painting is going nicely and pending a bit of plywood work, the tanks will soon be going back in.
While waiting for the enamel to dry I took a stab at cleaning the diamond plate decking.
Results are ok... but not like new...
The plate was fully oxidized - 30-years oxidized.
I used a 60 grit sanding disc from Norton... sorta worked. knocked off the oxidation in the flat areas of the plate but not the crevices next to the diamond. then hit it with a polishing compound. the Norton pad wore down on the first deck plate.
For the second deck plate I broke out a wire disc I had on hand. The wire cut the oxidization pretty quick and got into the crevices. I am concerned that I am introducing steel into the aluminum surface that will show up as rust.
Anyway. Replacement perfect mirror finish diamond plate is about $50 for each plate in this size... better to replace than renew? I dont know... too wore out from renewing.
Shining up the diamond plate from the deck in the lazzerette.
I had considered the opportunity to replace the water tanks as an opportunity to refinish the laz too. The painting is going nicely and pending a bit of plywood work, the tanks will soon be going back in.
While waiting for the enamel to dry I took a stab at cleaning the diamond plate decking.
Results are ok... but not like new...
The plate was fully oxidized - 30-years oxidized.
I used a 60 grit sanding disc from Norton... sorta worked. knocked off the oxidation in the flat areas of the plate but not the crevices next to the diamond. then hit it with a polishing compound. the Norton pad wore down on the first deck plate.
For the second deck plate I broke out a wire disc I had on hand. The wire cut the oxidization pretty quick and got into the crevices. I am concerned that I am introducing steel into the aluminum surface that will show up as rust.
Anyway. Replacement perfect mirror finish diamond plate is about $50 for each plate in this size... better to replace than renew? I dont know... too wore out from renewing.
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
Thankfully Pete made me rethink just placing the plastic tanks into the hole that previously housed the aluminum water tanks. Pete's recommendation for building a support system was welcomed and I have taken some of the suggestions...
Using 3/4 marine plywood with supports under that tie to the engine room bulkhead forward and then to the aft cockpit support posts on the aft. Then, bolted in plywood "stoppers" inboard and outboard to keep the tanks stationary.
The 3/4 ply is just going to be enamel painted - not going as far as sheathing the ply in fiberglass.
You can get an idea of the arrangement from the pic...
Using 3/4 marine plywood with supports under that tie to the engine room bulkhead forward and then to the aft cockpit support posts on the aft. Then, bolted in plywood "stoppers" inboard and outboard to keep the tanks stationary.
The 3/4 ply is just going to be enamel painted - not going as far as sheathing the ply in fiberglass.
You can get an idea of the arrangement from the pic...
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
CarlinLA
Senior Member
The problem is there is a seeping leak that pools behind the rudder block.
After sopping up the small pool of water and using degreaser to kill the bit of oil (no obvious oil leaks - micro amount visible in picture - wonder where its from?)... I went ahead and applied the primer... That was yesterday - Saturday.
Today - Sunday - in advance of painting the enamel I crawled back there and discovered just a few drops of water had pooled back in there... dried it up off the primer - which did not cure due to the moisture - and painted it anyway. The enamel probably won't cure either.
Where did the water come from? It seemed that there was moisture along the back edge of the shaft log... There was no stream of water to follow. If water is getting past the base edge of the shaft log - that service will have to wait till a haul-out next year to disassemble the rudder and associated gear for a rebuild.
After sopping up the small pool of water and using degreaser to kill the bit of oil (no obvious oil leaks - micro amount visible in picture - wonder where its from?)... I went ahead and applied the primer... That was yesterday - Saturday.
Today - Sunday - in advance of painting the enamel I crawled back there and discovered just a few drops of water had pooled back in there... dried it up off the primer - which did not cure due to the moisture - and painted it anyway. The enamel probably won't cure either.
Where did the water come from? It seemed that there was moisture along the back edge of the shaft log... There was no stream of water to follow. If water is getting past the base edge of the shaft log - that service will have to wait till a haul-out next year to disassemble the rudder and associated gear for a rebuild.
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2008
- Messages
- 13,731
- Location
- California Delta
- Vessel Name
- FlyWright
- Vessel Make
- 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
What is your boating background? Have you worked in the field of maintenance?
michael1801
Newbie
wall thinning where the tank sits
you will find more than one leak or area of wall thinning where the tank sits on those supports. So unless you do your own welding, go for a new plastic tank. Remove the tank, inspect, take it to a tank shop, and decide.
you will find more than one leak or area of wall thinning where the tank sits on those supports. So unless you do your own welding, go for a new plastic tank. Remove the tank, inspect, take it to a tank shop, and decide.
Delta_JimS
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2012
- Messages
- 278
Carl,
New paint looks great. Ditto the water tanks.
Thru hulls in Transon were from a long-ago diesel heater mounted in the ER.
Oil leak is likely from a worn hydraulic rudder cylinder.(as best I could tell)
New paint looks great. Ditto the water tanks.
Thru hulls in Transon were from a long-ago diesel heater mounted in the ER.
Oil leak is likely from a worn hydraulic rudder cylinder.(as best I could tell)
CarlinLA
Senior Member
Thanks for asking.
Satori is my sixth boat. The first was a 15-foot tri hull with a beautiful hundred horse Evenrude Starfire. Glastron 19-foot came next, then the little lifeboat conversion, then the Cal 25, the Newport 30, and now the 34-foot Fu Hwa.
Loved all of them.
No work in maintenance. Cursed as a jack of all trades but master of none... that, and no financial skills that would have made me wealthier over the years such that I could have purchased higher quality vessels that were in better shape.
I enjoy working with my hands and the more demanding the job the more rewarding a successful outcome.
I am quite fortunate to find myself in these dire straits.
CarlinLA
Senior Member
You got that right. Aluminum tsnks have been retired and plastic tanks are 70% in.
CarlinLA
Senior Member
Appreciate the note...
Diesel heater... guessed it was for a generator.
Still undecided about closing off the thru hulls.. Perhaps having the inside capped and brazed or glued tight.
FF
Guru
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 22,552
"Still undecided about closing off the thru hulls.."
Capping does not solve the thinning of a thru hull.
On inspected vessels the thru hull is sometimes pulled for inspection .
What keeps the water out of the boat is the sea cock, .
Capping does not solve the thinning of a thru hull.
On inspected vessels the thru hull is sometimes pulled for inspection .
What keeps the water out of the boat is the sea cock, .
CarlinLA
Senior Member
pretty close to the end-game for the water tank replacement...
Ronco plastic tanks are in...
Supported on 3/4 marine ply...
Secured with aluminum straps inboard and resting against the stock backing-blocks outboard.
Will be changing a bolt or two to get the right length and a bit of touch-up painting but not much more to do in the lazzerete... happy about that.
Super clean back there with the fresh paint - love that.
Best to all and thanks for hanging with me through the laz refresh.
Ronco plastic tanks are in...
Supported on 3/4 marine ply...
Secured with aluminum straps inboard and resting against the stock backing-blocks outboard.
Will be changing a bolt or two to get the right length and a bit of touch-up painting but not much more to do in the lazzerete... happy about that.
Super clean back there with the fresh paint - love that.
Best to all and thanks for hanging with me through the laz refresh.
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CarlinLA
Senior Member
Spray foam was strongly considered... chose the plywood base - I wont likely own the boat ten years from now to verify whether ply is better than foam.
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2008
- Messages
- 13,731
- Location
- California Delta
- Vessel Name
- FlyWright
- Vessel Make
- 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
To my untrained eye, it appears these tanks will shift in rough seas, but I'm probably wrong.
Did you find a new solution for attaching the posts besides the aforementioned household adhesive/sealant? If the strap is attached to a weakened upright, then the strap is only as strong as the post attachment.
I see the one post is lagged into the base. Is the base attached to the floor and wall?
Did you find a new solution for attaching the posts besides the aforementioned household adhesive/sealant? If the strap is attached to a weakened upright, then the strap is only as strong as the post attachment.
I see the one post is lagged into the base. Is the base attached to the floor and wall?
