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Old 01-09-2011, 12:29 PM   #1
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Wannabee Windows

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:Vertical windows ? Nah, you don't need them until you start shipping water. Then they are great, gravity works.
I don't mind vertical windows.* A lot of boats look very good with them.* It's the forward-slanted windows that I think look stupid on boats like ours.* I understand the reasoning behind them but nobody's gonna be taking a SeaSport or an American Tug*or whatever from California to New Zealand except on the back of a freighter.* That's why we call them wannabe windows.


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I never thought of that, Marin. *Being the owner of one of the few boats that could be ordered with a "North Sea" style pilothouse (wannabee windows), I thought it was function related rather than style. *The Krogen Manatee 36 has got to be one of the most "style challenged" boats ever made, but I'm told that the wannabee windows were ordered principally by vets of the sea rather than the style conscious (I mean, who among the style conscious would ever order a Manatee to begin with).


Since I've been aboard and cruised on both styles, I asked myself what I liked about the wannabee windows over the standard style. *Here's a few of the things I noticed for our "tropical" applications, which may or may not apply to the PNY.


*Side opening windows and ventilation occur forward of the helm position and pilothouse doors instead of behind the helm and pilothouse doors. *Conventional style has no opening side windows forward of pilothouse doors.
* Overhead accessories or controls aren't poking you in the eye. *I'm tall, and the shelf molded into my friends boat with standard configuration hits me right in the forehead.
*With the standard configuration, I couldn't practice my habit of leaning over the wheel to spot pilings as they pass from bow to amidships (collision with windshield).
*Glare from sun and water feel reduced, and here in Miami, the lower exposure to sun and temperature of gauges, controls and the helm area is an obvious benefit.
*Longer roof line makes for a different perception of space in the Pilothouse, and your breath is not fogging the top of your windshield when damp.
*The extra length of the roof allows for easy installation of solar panels (I have four but could do eight) and a host of other accessories.
*Rain and spray blow down the windshield (instead of up).
*No windshield instrument reflection at night. *(Nice on evening cruises or ICW at night).
*Fan defroster can be blown from dash or overhead onto windshield without the windshield angle directing the air into your eyes, and can also be directed sideways to blow moisture out forward side windows.
*With casual use of Rain-ex, wipers are all but a waste, even in spray and headwind.
*Even with regular glass, eye strain in sunlight seems less through windshield than through tinted glass on sides.


AND, a few disadvantages.


*Mast on North-Sea style has to be made higher to run stays to bow pulpit, conventional style doesn't have to overcome the extra forward intrusion of roof.
*Can't eye constellations or stars well from behind wheel. *Much better in conventional style.
*Natural light is better for chart reading with conventional style.
*Perhaps the conventional style has an aerodynamic advantage, not sure about this.
*Style break with North-Sea style??


If you look at the style differences here, you'll see that the angles of the forward leaning vs. the backward leaning styles are pretty extreme, and so the advantages and disadvantage may be more extreme as well. *I know the style is called "North Sea", but we fell in love with the North-Sea version in Hong Kong for its tropical applications. *It never occurred to me that there could be wannabees out there, but such choices would likely never involve a Krogen Manatee anyway. *Interesting subject, by the way. *Thanks for bringing it up.








-- Edited by healhustler on Sunday 9th of January 2011 01:43:40 PM
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:11 PM   #2
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Wannabee Windows

Something is wrong here!* Don't forward-slanting pilothouse windows require a*shallow dash?

-- Edited by markpierce on Sunday 9th of January 2011 02:12:56 PM
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:47 PM   #3
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Mark* -* The short answer is no. The bigger the boat, the more space available to do things.
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:52 PM   #4
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Fwd slant takes space from the "dash" and back slant from above. Personally I have vertical windows w overhanging roof line. That seems best to me but I agree basically w Marin that the fwd slant looks stupid. There are many many exceptions like hustler's Manatee. That very long slab like cabin front dos'nt fly well but it makes the fwd slant windows look better. The Coot looks fine as the slant is subtle. The Sundowner looks silly mainly because the BACK windows are also slanted bas akwards. I just went through a 5 min survey of the forum and see there are VERY few fwd slant windows. I was surprised.
One thing I'm sure about is that when there's a big sea coming aboard over the bow the fwd slant windows are BAD. The glass is then at right angles to the onrushing water maximizing the impact and maximizing the potential for window failure. I don't see how anyone can dispute that. As I said * *FAD.
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Old 01-09-2011, 02:02 PM   #5
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RE: Wannabee Windows

My opinion is that forward slanting windows look great! Not to mention better visibility when glare or night cruising are happening. I would have forward slanting windows in a heartbeat!
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:03 PM   #6
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Wannabee Windows

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

*
One thing I'm sure about is that when there's a big sea coming aboard over the bow the fwd slant windows are BAD. The glass is then at right angles to the onrushing water maximizing the impact and maximizing the potential for window failure. I don't see how anyone can dispute that.
Eric, that's not obvious to me.* If the boat is bow-down when the wave breaks, the forward-leaning windows would be facing somewhat downward, somewhat more than*vertical windows.* Also, when a wave breaks, it begins to fall within a short distance.* The waves'*"angle of attack" on the pilothouse would depend on the amount of pitch of the boat, distance from pilothouse to bow, and nature of the wave.

I was in a hurricane in the North Atlantic on a cruise ship.* The seas were head-on, and from the 14th-deck observation lounge,*wave water appeared to be falling like heavy rain*on the slightly*backward-facing windows.

Coots have 10mm tempered forward windows.

PS -- I don't consider the Coot's dash to be shallow despite the windows' angle.

*


-- Edited by markpierce on Sunday 9th of January 2011 04:06:07 PM
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:21 PM   #7
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:One thing I'm sure about is that when there's a big sea coming aboard over the bow the fwd slant windows are BAD. The glass is then at right angles to the onrushing water maximizing the impact and maximizing the potential for window failure. I don't see how anyone can dispute that. As I said FAD.
Eric, have to disagree with you on this. At the speeds we are traveling when green water is coming over the bow, the water is coming down by the time the boat drives into it hitting the windshield. If you think about it, the water is mostly going up and down. The boat drives into it. Now if the boat is going 15+ knots into a wave it might be different.

Ted

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Old 01-09-2011, 03:22 PM   #8
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Hmmm.* The angle of the forward superstructure on the "La Pérouse" 1973 GB36-403 would seem to channel waves upward*toward the pilothouse windows.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:52 PM   #9
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RE: Wannabee Windows

To a certain extent the water comes down on the boat/windows but it must pass over the fore-cabin/deck. The fore-cabin/deck are rather horizontal so the bulk of water movement is aft. It's hard to conceive of a wave so monstrous that it's crest comes mostly down on the boat. No I think the water will be mostly moving aft and the further a window is slanter aft the less force the wave can impart to the window. Think of the bow scooping up water as it moves fwd into a big (10 or 15') sea. Waves don't jump up and down*** ...they mostly just rush fwd. Nawwww ..sorry Ted I just can't relate. I know there are those that think slanted fwd in this regard is better but I'm not one of them.
Mark,
You say "channel waves upward". What part of the "fwd superstructure" could channel waves upward??? All the superstructure surfaces are horizontal except the sides of the fore-cabin. I don't see any way water could be channeled upward except the small surface on the front of the for-cabin. And even if the water could come from above the fwd slant window would trap water causing lots of pressure on the glass** ..exactly what you don't want.
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:52 PM   #10
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Wannabee Windows

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Mark,
You say "channel waves upward". What part of the "fwd superstructure" could channel waves upward??? All the superstructure surfaces are horizontal except the sides of the fore-cabin. I don't see any way water could be channeled upward except the small surface on the front of the for-cabin. And even if the water could come from above the fwd slant window would trap water causing lots of pressure on the glass** ..exactly what you don't want.
I was referring to the boat pictured in healhustler's avatar.*(Edit -- I note that healhustler has since changed the*boat's identity in his signature, from a*GB to a Manatee.* Obviously, I don't know*the various boats well.)* *The*superstructure's roof in front of the pilothouse is at an angle to the horizon (approximately perpendicular to the forward-leaning windows), not horizontal to the normal waterline*of most boats.

Why wouldn't one want to channel water down, working with rather than against gravity?* Why is a forward-leaning bow a good idea*but not a forward-leaning window?

*


-- Edited by markpierce on Sunday 9th of January 2011 11:04:03 PM
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:03 PM   #11
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RE: Wannabee Windows

A commercial passenger boat I use to run (The Yukon Queen) has forward slanting windows, and I loved them.* The main reason was the lack of glare when running at night.* As for being more or less resistant to having a wave blowing them out, I don't know which is better.* I do know that while crossing the Gulf of Alaska, a huge wave did take out the forward slanting pilot house windows (on the second deck no less)* I'm not sure that forward slanting, vertical, backwards slanting or any other type of window would have made a difference.* When your number is up, it's up......................Arctic Traveller
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:21 PM   #12
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

To a certain extent the water comes down on the boat/windows but it must pass over the fore-cabin/deck. The fore-cabin/deck are rather horizontal so the bulk of water movement is aft. It's hard to conceive of a wave so monstrous that it's crest comes mostly down on the boat. No I think the water will be mostly moving aft and the further a window is slanter aft the less force the wave can impart to the window. Think of the bow scooping up water as it moves fwd into a big (10 or 15') sea. Waves don't jump up and down ...they mostly just rush fwd. Nawwww ..sorry Ted I just can't relate. I know there are those that think slanted fwd in this regard is better but I'm not one of them.
Mark,
You say "channel waves upward". What part of the "fwd superstructure" could channel waves upward??? All the superstructure surfaces are horizontal except the sides of the fore-cabin. I don't see any way water could be channeled upward except the small surface on the front of the for-cabin. And even if the water could come from above the fwd slant window would trap water causing lots of pressure on the glass ..exactly what you don't want.
Eric, I can see the wave coming over the bow and hitting the pilot house windows on your boat, but not making it all the way up to an upper level wheelhouse such as the* Manatee.

*

Ted
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:28 PM   #13
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Wannabee windows I like that.* Sound like another technical boat term to added to the list.*
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:14 PM   #14
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Well there's a nice ramp for the "wave" to race up. I've looked at a number of fwd slant windshields since my last post and I've decided they look ok to fine to good depending on the design. I've even decided the Sundowner looks good. Must have been something I ate. Can't say I'll be wanting wannabee windows but I'm at least neutral. With big waves over the windshield I'll still take the slanted BACK windows.
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:36 PM   #15
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Well there's a nice ramp for the "wave" to race up. I've looked at a number of fwd slant windshields since my last post and I've decided they look ok to fine to good depending on the design. I've even decided the Sundowner looks good. Must have been something I ate. Can't say I'll be wanting wannabee windows but I'm at least neutral. With big waves over the windshield I'll still take the slanted BACK windows.
Occasionally my opinion changes, but it's usually Barley-Pop induced.

Ted

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Old 01-09-2011, 09:48 PM   #16
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Wannabee Windows

For all the passion and disagreement, note that none of you (or I)*listed the angle of bridge/pilothouse windows as an important factor in selecting their trawlers.* Reference thread What factors were/are critical in selecting your trawler?

There seem to be several "camps" on this subject.* (1) their ugliness overrides any benefit, (2) they are "fashion statements" with no practical value for "little boats" like ours, (3) they're are less safe than straight or back-ward sloping windows, and (4) attractive or ugly, they have worthwhile benefits.

-- Edited by markpierce on Sunday 9th of January 2011 10:52:38 PM
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:49 PM   #17
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Quote:
Eric, I can see the wave coming over the bow and hitting the pilot house windows on your boat, but not making it all the way up to an upper level wheelhouse such as the* Manatee.


In the photo, the smaller boat is the one the windows blew in on.* Note how high up the bridge windows are.....................Arctic Traveller
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:58 PM   #18
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Wannabee Windows

OK, here's the deal. I guess I'm a part time wannabe, because IMHO the forward slope is, often a good fit with a boat design, and also very practical as to keeping rain off the glass, and allowing more usable space on the dash. No, I wouldn't choose the "Wannabe" style for a low profile, offshore boat. That's my four cents worth. You are not getting me for a measly two cents!!!

-- Edited by Carey on Sunday 9th of January 2011 11:00:08 PM
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:50 AM   #19
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RE: Wannabee Windows

The tug that I operate has wannabbee windows in it. They are often hard to see out of ,more to do with the size than the slant. In March of 2008 (before I was Capt), this boat towed the aircraft carrier John F Kennedy from Norfolk Va to Philadelpia. The wind came up over 50 kts for 30-40 hours off the eastern shore of VA/Maryland. The Capt told me he had to take everything in the teeth because there was no turning that ship in those conditions. None of the windows blew out and the tow continued. He believed that the angle of the windows helped knock down the green
water weight against the glass.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:04 AM   #20
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RE: Wannabee Windows

Quote:
Sailor of Fortune wrote:

The tug that I operate has wannabbee windows in it. They are often hard to see out of ,more to do with the size than the slant. In March of 2008 (before I was Capt), this boat towed the aircraft carrier John F Kennedy from Norfolk Va to Philadelpia. The wind came up over 50 kts for 30-40 hours off the eastern shore of VA/Maryland. The Capt told me he had to take everything in the teeth because there was no turning that ship in those conditions. None of the windows blew out and the tow continued. He believed that the angle of the windows helped knock down the green
water weight against the glass.
Jack,
Hope they let us have the Kennedy for an artificial reef.* They will be sinking the Aurthur Radford as a reef this spring off of Delaware. Everything in the Philadelphia yard is either destin for scrap or reefing when they alocate the money. Jack, are you going to be towing the Radford out in the spring?

Ted

*
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