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Old 09-23-2013, 07:50 AM   #21
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I'm glad to hear it's probably a sometime thing.

I've been occasionally trying movements like this since about 2000 after we moved from our single diesel (with no thruster)... in two different twin screw boats... with underwhelming results.

We've always had better results using a spring line...

-Chris
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:51 AM   #22
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I'm glad to hear it's probably a sometime thing.

I've been occasionally trying movements like this since about 2000 after we moved from our single diesel (with no thruster)... in two different twin screw boats... with underwhelming results.

We've always had better results using a spring line...

-Chris
Spring lines can be a boater's best friend in many docking maneuvers!

But, as you can see by posts on this thread from different boaters... a twin screw boat can be made to walk sideways. Every boat's handling qualities are different in various situations, and, a pilot's ways of utilizing each boat's handling qualities are very individual too. As well... current and wind conditions nearly always play a part in what can be accomplished in boat handling maneuvers. As has been mentioned... calm conditions are best for utilizing a twin screw's sideways walking capabilities.

My recommendation is go to a calm location with plenty open space and practice, practice, practice. I bet you will find what rudder positions and per engine rpm work best for you and your boat to move sideways, in either direction. It's not rocket science, just assertive boat piloting!

Good Luck!
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:50 AM   #23
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My recommendation is go to a calm location with plenty open space and practice, practice, practice. I bet you will find what rudder positions and per engine rpm work best for you and your boat to move sideways, in either direction. It's not rocket science, just assertive boat piloting!

Good Luck!

Heh... not like I haven't done that practice thing. For 20 years or so, several straight shaft boats. This one has simply eluded me. So far (maybe).

-Chris
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:20 PM   #24
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Heh... not like I haven't done that practice thing. For 20 years or so, several straight shaft boats. This one has simply eluded me. So far (maybe).

-Chris
Yo, ranger

I don't mean to imply that you haven't tried, although I wasn't aware of your 20 yrs successful efforts with other boats... until this post.

It could be that location/size/configurations of your current boat's rudders, props, and keel (in combination with the boat's bottom shape – maybe??) might simply make it really difficult to move her sideways via twins. Perhaps bow, stern or a combination of thrusters is in order for your boat?? And, as you mentioned in earlier post - spring lines work well too!

My take on the lateral movement capabilities via twin screw apparatus adjustments is that the screws make it easier the wider apart they are located and rudders make it easier when they are reasonably large.

Have you front, back, and side pictures of the running gear while boat is on the hard?
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:00 PM   #25
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I just choose the "falling leaf" method. It does require you to manage your forward motion/way but it is simpler and seems more natural as I come from a single with bow thruster...which is pretty much what you have to do with a single/thruster set up.

Just approach the dock with a little bit of way and at a 45 degree angle. Use the "outter" engine(furthest from dock) to erase your way and thusly bring the bow away from the dock and the stern towards it. Some times that is all you need if you time it right and have the right amount of speed and the boat will go right up to the dock...sometimes at a slightly alarming rate. If that does not do it, then in and out of forward and reverse until you get the boat alongside....the boat will appear like a "falling leaf". Which engine you use is determined by how much movement you need in the bow or stern and if you need to put way on or take it off. I'm not sure i am making any sense here....hard to explain...easy on the boat though.

I think walking a twin sideways with consistent regularity is somewhat of a myth. Like people have said, the conditions have to be right.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:07 PM   #26
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Yo, ranger

I don't mean to imply that you haven't tried, although I wasn't aware of your 20 yrs successful efforts with other boats... until this post.

It could be that location/size/configurations of your current boat's rudders, props, and keel (in combination with the boat's bottom shape – maybe??) might simply make it really difficult to move her sideways via twins. Perhaps bow, stern or a combination of thrusters is in order for your boat?? And, as you mentioned in earlier post - spring lines work well too!

My take on the lateral movement capabilities via twin screw apparatus adjustments is that the screws make it easier the wider apart they are located and rudders make it easier when they are reasonably large.

Have you front, back, and side pictures of the running gear while boat is on the hard?

Didn't think to mention at first that I'm sort of an old phart

And looking back, it might be clearer if I had said by "this one" eluding me, I meant the lateral movement... not just on this boat.

I have pics, but I see this site doesn't do direct upload. In any case, it's just your standard sportfish deep-V configuration... that we putter around on at trawler speeds as often as possible... i.e., when sea states permit, with our hull form. Relatively small props, relatively tiny rudders, decently separated by 15' beam (at widest), with plenty of diesel torque.

FWIW, I've not been worried about not being able to move sideways. Lateral movement would be nifty, though, if I could (eventually) figure it out with no $$$ involved. In the meantime, we just whip out a spring line and get it done. Much cheaper than thrusters

-Chris
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:08 PM   #27
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I just choose the "falling leaf" method. It does require you to manage your forward motion/way but it is simpler and seems more natural as I come from a single with bow thruster...which is pretty much what you have to do with a single/thruster set up.

Just approach the dock with a little bit of way and at a 45 degree angle. Use the "outter" engine(furthest from dock) to erase your way and thusly bring the bow away from the dock and the stern towards it. Some times that is all you need if you time it right and have the right amount of speed and the boat will go right up to the dock...sometimes at a slightly alarming rate. If that does not do it, then in and out of forward and reverse until you get the boat alongside....the boat will appear like a "falling leaf". Which engine you use is determined by how much movement you need in the bow or stern and if you need to put way on or take it off. I'm not sure i am making any sense here....hard to explain...easy on the boat though.

I think walking a twin sideways with consistent regularity is somewhat of a myth. Like people have said, the conditions have to be right.

Well said. I can picture it perfectly. I do about the same, just approach the dock at a shallower angle...maybe 30 degrees. If I'm not fighting a wind off the dock, I normally just need to use the 'outer' engine to settle gently alongside the dock.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:09 PM   #28
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....the boat will appear like a "falling leaf". Which engine you use is determined by how much movement you need in the bow or stern and if you need to put way on or take it off. I'm not sure i am making any sense here....hard to explain...easy on the boat though.

Yep, that's pretty much what we do... unless conditions warrant use of a spring line to warp alongside.

-Chris
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:06 PM   #29
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Circumstance boaters may encounter... no matter experience or boat capabilities.

Some time ago, as usual piloting from our FB, I came to bow-enter our two finger slip in a fair current with more breeze/gusts than usual that were coming from an unusual direction. I made an error in judgment and decided to abort my first try (been years since I needed to fully abort – usually I can get her in even if it's not too pretty - way things were headed this time it could have created big problems).

We have a 14' 8" tow behind, four seat, 50 hp o/b runabout on short line as I dock... so... not making a clean entry on first try has its problems for direction change in addition to simply needing to start over again. BTW... I have a nice big air filled rubber nose on bow of our runabout so she can butt into transom creating no damage.

Anyway, as usual my Admiral was on stbd side deck ready to step off onto our dock steps and fasten side ties. I yelled hold on we're going to try again (as I maneuvered away from collision danger) and she yelled back "What are you doing... you never do this!"

I turned our Tolly around and went back into position on the canal for getting into dock entry configuration. This time much better knowing how that day’s current and unusual direction wind were interacting. Came in pretty clean this time. The wind and current were a bear though and I did use a rubber corner post on one finger dock as fulcrum to work the boat straight into slip and still hold in position so stbd side came against finger so Admiral could simply step off to secure side ties.

IMHO... every journey or maneuver on a boat has its own set of abnormalities and being able to understand how to “go with the flow” is just part of the game. Cause after all, Pleasure Boating is in actuality nothing more or less than a Big Fun Game!
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Old 09-23-2013, 06:01 PM   #30
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I just choose the "falling leaf" method.

Just approach the dock with a little bit of way and at a 45 degree angle. Use the "outter" engine(furthest from dock) to erase your way and thusly bring the bow away from the dock and the stern towards it. Some times that is all you need if you time it right and have the right amount of speed and the boat will go right up to the dock...sometimes at a slightly alarming rate. If that does not do it, then in and out of forward and reverse until you get the boat alongside....the boat will appear like a "falling leaf". Which engine you use is determined by how much movement you need in the bow or stern and if you need to put way on or take it off. I'm not sure i am making any sense here....hard to explain...easy on the boat though.

I think walking a twin sideways with consistent regularity is somewhat of a myth. Like people have said, the conditions have to be right.
Good explanation. However, I think the "Sideways" explanation that many boaters refer to while docking a twin confuses a lot of new skippers. The few I've helped that were really having difficulty, failed to grasp the concept that when you are "prop walking" a twin engine boat, as you have explained above, you are really "pivoting" the boat by moving the stern left or right around a pivot point. And even fewer knew where that pivot point was on their boat. Most guessed it was the bow or midship. Once they discover the pivot point and understood the concept, you can see the light come on.

The pivot point on my boat is about 10 feet astern of the bow directly below the helm. I come into my slip a little shallower than you, probably closer to 25 or 30 degrees in neutral and then put the port engine in reverse to break the forward momentum, pushing the stern in and the bow out at the dock.
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Old 09-23-2013, 06:10 PM   #31
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While many of the simplistic "theories"/"methods" are common amongst many boats.....every boat is a little different and every situation is a little different...the mark of an experienced helmsman is quick recognition and quick adaptation.

Training new boaters is more about getting the simple stuff done so they can start relaxing and absorbing the bigger picture....learning soft touch/strong touch/hold-do nothing is one of the most important.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:59 AM   #32
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I found the best place to practice walking sideways was at the bottom of a lock. No current, no wind, no audience and you can hit anything.
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:29 PM   #33
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I found the best place to practice walking sideways was at the bottom of a lock. No current, no wind, no audience and you can hit anything.
You must have different locks than we have. It's more like being in a fishbowl here and you're the center of attention if it goes badly!!
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:27 AM   #34
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I just choose the "falling leaf" method. It does require you to manage your forward motion/way but it is simpler and seems more natural as I come from a single with bow thruster...which is pretty much what you have to do with a single/thruster set up.

Just approach the dock with a little bit of way and at a 45 degree angle. Use the "outter" engine(furthest from dock) to erase your way and thusly bring the bow away from the dock and the stern towards it. Some times that is all you need if you time it right and have the right amount of speed and the boat will go right up to the dock...sometimes at a slightly alarming rate. If that does not do it, then in and out of forward and reverse until you get the boat alongside....the boat will appear like a "falling leaf". Which engine you use is determined by how much movement you need in the bow or stern and if you need to put way on or take it off. I'm not sure i am making any sense here....hard to explain...easy on the boat though.

I think walking a twin sideways with consistent regularity is somewhat of a myth. Like people have said, the conditions have to be right.
This is NOT what we have been discussing here. You have adequately described normal docking procedure for a twin. That is how I usually dock my boat too, but when the spot is inappropriate for that type of manoeuvring, you may wish to move your boat sideways into the spot, using the method we have been discussing. much like the joystick handling of the new Pod drive boats. Just consider trying to approach the crowded club dock, where boats are double rafted two deep both ahead of and behind the single opening, and that opening is only a few feet longer than your own boat length. This is where I first tried the sideways technique, and it was impressive, especially to me, to see how well the boat behaved, the bow and stern both gliding towards the dock at the same rate, all the while staying safely away from the neighbour.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:37 AM   #35
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You must have different locks than we have. It's more like being in a fishbowl here and you're the center of attention if it goes badly!!
Yes, I was thinking of the Erie and Oswego canals during the week.

For real entertainment try the Rideau and Chambly locks during weekends in August.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:16 AM   #36
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Just a reminder...not all boats handle the same...some walk fine and other don't do it hardly a all....

if it was so guaranteed that it worked perfectly with all boats all the time...there would be no thrusters on twins....
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:47 PM   #37
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Yes, I was thinking of the Erie and Oswego canals during the week.
For real entertainment try the Rideau and Chambly locks during weekends in August.
Ha Ha, I figured that is what you meant. In reality the lock masters at Hiram Chittenden locks in Seattle are real pros and they don't let you get too far out of sorts. I was single handing it one night coming through the large locks and he lasoo'd my anchor windlass on the first try from about 15 feet above, no effort and held it there until I got the stern secured and up to the bow.

In truth, during the summer months there can be 100 people staring down at you, taking pictures as you enter the locks. The pressure is on to do it right !!
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:56 PM   #38
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Ha Ha, I figured that is what you meant. In reality the lock masters at Hiram Chittenden locks in Seattle are real pros and they don't let you get too far out of sorts. I was single handing it one night coming through the large locks and he lasoo'd my anchor windlass on the first try from about 15 feet above, no effort and held it there until I got the stern secured and up to the bow.

In truth, during the summer months there can be 100 people staring down at you, taking pictures as you enter the locks. The pressure is on to do it right !!
When I went down the flight of 8 locks in downtown Ottawa, the other boat in the locks had a topless Québécois sunning herself on deck. No one was watching me. I wasn't watching me. Oh, my wife was watching me.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:53 PM   #39
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When I went down the flight of 8 locks in downtown Ottawa, the other boat in the locks had a topless Québécois sunning herself on deck. No one was watching me. I wasn't watching me. Oh, my wife was watching me.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:56 PM   #40
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. some walk fine and other don't do it hardly a all....if it was so guaranteed that it worked perfectly with all boats all the time...there would be no thrusters on twins.
I would love to have a bow thruster for those windy days when the wind and tide combine to drag the bow away from the dock. But it is really hard to justify the expense when 99% of the time like you say, with twins, it isn't needed!!

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. No one was watching me. I wasn't watching me. Oh, my wife was watching me.
Yeah ....wives can be funny that way!!
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