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Old 10-16-2013, 01:19 PM   #21
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Skidgear, a survey recommendation is not a requirement. In my opinion, I welcome the recommendations- my survey on Pau Hana dated 09/2012 is full of them. These recommendations tell me that the surveyor is keeping abreast of standards and practices (ABYC/ NFPA, USCG and often CE) and is able to advise me on said standards. Oftentimes, many of these standards are able to be implemented on a vessel without any drama whatsoever:
  • Adding GFIs to an older boat
  • Double clamping hoses below the waterline
  • Using tinned marine wire when installing electronics/changing electrical circuits
  • Adding CO detectors to a boat

The point is, I believe you are taking these recommendations as gospel, and finding fault with all and any involved. Let me be clear and blunt- there is no lobbying of insurance companies by survey organizations. I challenge you to prove otherwise, and not hide behind double talk and opinion. Provide concrete fact that NAMS and SAMS conspired with insurance companies.

Yes, surveys and insurance are part of the boat owners' responsibility- just as the compliance with emissions testing and insurance on your car is the owner's responsibility. However, boating and driving are not required events- they are elective events.

If you elect to drive, you must ensure your vehicle meets emissions criteria and have insurance, for they are required.

If you elect to boat, you can hit the water without a survey or insurance, as they are not required.

If you're so disgruntled with this, why insure your vessel to begin with?
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:37 PM   #22
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Skidgear, a survey recommendation is not a requirement. In my opinion, I welcome the recommendations- my survey on Pau Hana dated 09/2012 is full of them. These recommendations tell me that the surveyor is keeping abreast of standards and practices (ABYC/ NFPA, USCG and often CE) and is able to advise me on said standards. Oftentimes, many of these standards are able to be implemented on a vessel without any drama whatsoever:
  • Adding GFIs to an older boat
  • Double clamping hoses below the waterline
  • Using tinned marine wire when installing electronics/changing electrical circuits
  • Adding CO detectors to a boat
The point is, I believe you are taking these recommendations as gospel, and finding fault with all and any involved. Let me be clear and blunt- there is no lobbying of insurance companies by survey organizations. I challenge you to prove otherwise, and not hide behind double talk and opinion. Provide concrete fact that NAMS and SAMS conspired with insurance companies.

Yes, surveys and insurance are part of the boat owners' responsibility- just as the compliance with emissions testing and insurance on your car is the owner's responsibility. However, boating and driving are not required events- they are elective events.

If you elect to drive, you must ensure your vehicle meets emissions criteria and have insurance, for they are required.

If you elect to boat, you can hit the water without a survey or insurance, as they are not required.

If you're so disgruntled with this, why insure your vessel to begin with?
Now that's funny. I'm probably the last guy on this forum who would think a surveyor recommendation is gospel. But judging from a number of discussions on this forum, there are lots of people who do....which is why I'm locked onto this.

One more time, why when I ask a surveyor to leave system upgrade items off the survey report, do they turn around and put them in anyway...leaving me with the task of dispositioning those items per the company's form letter? One more time, why do surveyors tell me the companies want to see (their favorite) upgrade item....and when I talk with the tech guys at the company they tell me they don't care about the issue as it's an upgrade and not related to the material condition of the boat as presented? Why are you avoiding answering my specific questions? You left a bunch of them in my previous post waiting for explanations.

Look, if you don't like the word "lobby", I could settle for cozy partnership. Face it, something made the insurance industry give the alphabet groups favored nation status. Don't believe I used the word conspire. But it is fun to look at the money trail and connect the dots between all the players, don't you think? And now that you've really piqued my interest ...I believe I will look into the connections among the players in more detail...better yet, get some outside help on that one. Maybe Frontline...60 minutes...insurance regulators...you could be famous.

Are you suggesting that a "registered" SAMS/NAMS surveyor, a highly regarded agent for the insurance company, might not be up to speed on standards and practices? You're the guy that said they're "professionals". Why on earth would an owner who "doesn't know how to change the oil" (your words) need to keep tabs on a cadre of highly qualified pros? Perish the thought! Heresy.

I actually like my insurance company very much. Probably the most "progressive" (not Progressive) in the business. Straight shooters. Unfortunately, insurance is a necessary evil in the marina and inside storage world.
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:31 PM   #23
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Quite possibly because a survey is supposed to be an unbiased 3rd party opinion of your vessel-and requesting that items be left off the survey adds bias to the report.

Please feel free to investigate- and keep us updated. The simple fact of the matter is that surveyors (be they home, vessel, aircraft, or any other) are simply 3rd party professionals that report unbiased information so others may act upon it- whether you care to believe it or not. Marine surveyors affiliated with the "Alphabet Soup" groups have a standardized reporting criteria that lead to better surveys, vice the Joe Lunchbucket that decides he is going to become a surveyor just because he has been around them for a few years. A marine surveyor also keeps up with the ever changing and evolving standards and practices of the different "alphabet organizations".

I guess to you,

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA),
The US Coast Guard (USCG),
The American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) or
the European Commission (CE),

are just meaningless alphabet organizations out to support the "cozy partnerships" they enjoy with insurance companies and surveyors.

For the record, the "tech guys" at an insurance company are usually surveyors


What you want to hear is, in my opinion, not answers to your questions, but affirmation that you are correct- and I don't believe you are.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:51 PM   #24
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Quite possibly because a survey is supposed to be an unbiased 3rd party opinion of your vessel-and requesting that items be left off the survey adds bias to the report.

Huh? A survey is supposed to assess the material condition of the boat as presented. Did you forget you said that? Surveyor preferred upgrades...presented as a recommendation...are clearly in a personal bias category. How can individual recommendations possibly have any hope of being standardized from one individual to the next and for one boat owner to the next? Pointless complication of the report and additional burden on the owner. But thanks for that response. I can use it.

Please feel free to investigate- and keep us updated. The simple fact of the matter is that surveyors (be they home, vessel, aircraft, or any other) are simply 3rd party professionals that report unbiased information so others may act upon it- whether you care to believe it or not. Marine surveyors affiliated with the "Alphabet Soup" groups have a standardized reporting criteria that lead to better surveys, vice the Joe Lunchbucket that decides he is going to become a surveyor just because he has been around them for a few years. A marine surveyor also keeps up with the ever changing and evolving standards and practices of the different "alphabet organizations".

...been looking for the appropriate government office. Are you volunteering to be interviewed? See above comment about bias. Discovery of the concept of a standard report format was one giant leap for mankind. See earlier post about the qualifications of these "professionals".

I guess to you,

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA),
The US Coast Guard (USCG),
The American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) or
the European Commission (CE),

are just meaningless alphabet organizations out to support the "cozy partnerships" they enjoy with insurance companies and surveyors.

Different relationships than for surveyor groups. Obviously USCG has no financial motivation and in reality protects the public from run away regulation and unnecessary burden, in part because the public process is mandated by law. My experience with EC aviation authorities is that some of them are actually financed by industry, therefore much less independent than U.S. agencies like USCG. But the investigation should clarify relationships and motivations quite nicely.

For the record, the "tech guys" at an insurance company are usually surveyors

For the record, I know that very well.


What you want to hear is, in my opinion, not answers to your questions, but affirmation that you are correct- and I don't believe you are.
No, I want clear explanations for my questions as I find your responses very useful in supporting my petition to investigative authorities.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:19 PM   #25
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Wow. I truly don't know how to respond- but I understand the difference between an exchange of information and arguing for arguments' sake. It's clear from your responses that you are unwilling to have a logical discussion, and only see things your way- which is your right.

My take on things in this thread is based on years in the business, interacting with insurance companies and surveyors as part of the everyday job. I look forward to the results of your "investigation", and can only offer you a tinfoil hat so you get a clear signal.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:02 PM   #26
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Wow. I truly don't know how to respond-
I look forward to your investigation, and can only offer you a tinfoil hat so you get a clear signal.
Respond by answering my very clearly stated questions.

Won't be my investigation.

Juvenile insults...and not very clever. I'm disappointed.

Best regards
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:07 PM   #27
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Guys, your positions are clear,the prospect of common ground is about zero, Continuing is pointless, except by PM if you think that will achieve anything.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:13 PM   #28
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Two things are very apparent to me:

1) you don't process the opinions given on this thread with much intent to understand or accept the info offered. This tells me there is not much chance of this conversation progressing further.

2) you clearly want me to speak with authority as to the exact workings of insurance companies- which I cannot. I have insight into what goes on, as it comes with the territory as an insurance broker- and that insight is offered for public consumption.

You speak of investigations- I look forward to the results.
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