Varnish or Cetol? Best way to fix teak rails?

[Edelweiss]

Cetol comes in clear without the tinge. In our local of over 150 inches of rain, varnish is just too hard to deal with. Cetol is quick and dirty in terms of roughing up the existing varnish, stain the open wood and then several coats of Cetol. Cetol drys to the next coat in 15-20 minutes in 50 degree sun weather so several coats can be applied.

I'll second that!! Cetol is long lasting and easy to apply. Light scuffing up once a year, followed by a single coat of Cetol light is enough to keep it going. Plus we fish and crab a lot and it gets beat up a bit. But is easy to spot sand, recoat and blends right in after a few weeks in the sun.

 

[Underway]

If the teak is in good shape, why start with CPES under Bristol? Won't it detract from the natural beauty of the wood?

 

[Marin]

If the teak is in good shape, why start with CPES under Bristol? Won't it detract from the natural beauty of the wood?

I used to think so but have since been proven wrong. CPES has a tint to it and it does darken the wood a tiny bit. But it is essentially clear and the figuring and grain shows through just fine. The advantage of using CPES first is that being a very thin two-part epoxy it fills and seals the upper layer of wood cells. Bristol (or varnish or Cetol, etc.) doesn't do this.

Also, if if the first layer of finish is applied while the second coat of CPES is still a bit tacky, the finish will be "glued" down to the wood. While this will not eliminate the possibility of finish lifting due to moisture getting under the finish, it will make it much harder for the moisture to penetrate under the finish.

I was very skeptical of the advnatage of using CPES under a bright finish, in our case Bristol. So we didn't do it for many years. After multiple discussions on the Grand Banks forum about CPES under bright finish I was finally convinced by Bob Lowe, the former owner of Oak Harbor Boatworks on Whidbey Island and who knows more than God about the care and feeding of wood and glass Grand Banks, to try the CPES-under-the-finish method.

And it turned out that Bob was correct and it makes for a superior finish job. It does NOT alter the need for multple coats of finish. In our case we try to get on at least eight coats if time and weather allow. Ten is even better. We have developed our own process of applying Bristol and if our time and the weather cooperate to let us comlpete the whole process, we generally don't have to touch that section again for quite a few years.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Thinned varnish will certainly seal the wood. But epoxy has an advantage with its adhesive qualities. I think it forms a better bond and is more resistant to water. So that seal lasts longer.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

I like varnish . This is 6 coats of Epifanes on new teak .

Looking good. It will look even better once you put 6 more coats on and get it smooooth, like butta.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Thinned varnish will certainly seal the wood. But epoxy has an advantage with its adhesive qualities. I think it forms a better bond and is more resistant to water. So that seal lasts longer.

Yes I usually put the first coat of varnish on w 75% thinner, the 2nd w 50% thinner and the third w 25% thinner. Then full strength.

 

[caltexflanc]

Having used Cetol on a teak pulpit, and Epiphanes Wood Finish on an aft deck floor exposed to sun (in places) and water and foot traffic and furniture scraping and semi-interior stairs to the flying bridge and also heavily trafficked, plus exterior uncovered trim rails, I think the Epiphanes WF is the only way to go for ease of application and durability. Particularly if you are in more intense sunlight areas year around. Never had to get around to putting it on the mid ship rails, as we had covers on those 90% of the time.

 

[chester613]

I love the look of varnish. No way will I ever have a varnished exterior. Too much work, plus the maint. goes on forever. Cetol is not the prettiest solution, but the best, IMO. I use the clear, it has the lightest stain. Three or four coats will last 3 seasons in the NE. Maybe 5 seasons, if you do a quick 220 sanding and another coat each year.

 

[camdunning]

Thanks for all the sage advice. We liveaboard and the rails see a lot of abuse from sand, sun, dog and visitors, so something easy/durable sounds like the way to go. I'll probably grab my heat gun and scrape off what's there, then apply some CPES followed by Bristol or Cetol. If I was smart though I'd just get some covers made for it, but work and school limit the amount of time and finances available for these projects...

thanks again!

 

[QB]

I'll probably grab my heat gun and scrape off what's there, then apply some CPES followed by Bristol or Cetol.

Some folks say CPES under Cetol works, but Interlux tech support says "Unfortunately it is not possible to apply Cetol over CPES, Marine-Tex Epoxy, Gluv-it or any type of epoxy sealant."

 

[Nomad Willy]

Avoid all the potential trouble and just use filler or sanded wood on the first coat or two (wet sanding).

I once asked if anybody knew what "Cetol" is .. like what is it made from. Don't remember getting an answer. Still don't know what it is. I like coatings w known and predictable chacteristics too. I once painted a wood OB boat w vinyl anti-fouling because I liked the color. 75% of it was missing after my first run w the boat. Didn't adhere at all.

McCloskey's with Tung oil is what I use. It's a soft and very flexible high oil varnish. But there's many high quality varnishes like Interlux Schooner. Determining if it's soft or hard can be challenging as frequently that information is't on the can. In the past it was required to list the contents of a product. I didn't stumble on to McCloskey's. Was taking a class in college on finishing and the prof said Tung oil and phenolic resin was the best so I went shopping reading the contents on the cans and picked MCloskey's because it had both Tung oil and phenolic resin in large quantities. One now needs to ask. Also hard resins can be in soft varnishes .. like phenolic resin .. one of the best.

 

[Portuguese]

I'd go
1. Sanding + sanding + sanding then,
2. 50/50 varnish + sanding + sanding
3. then 95/5 varmish with the tip of the silk brush always in the same patern without crossing threads.
4. Then, sanding + sanding and another thick 100% varmish coating.
Wich varnish? the cheapest and the most affordable for exteriores. Repeat process on 3 & 4 as many times as needed until you're happy

That's how I did it!

 

[caltexflanc]

If you are in Santa Barbara you will get a lot more sun with higher UV intensity than guys up north. For instance:

Climate Prediction Center - Outlooks: Current UV Index Forecast Map

Monthly Average UV Index | SunWise | US EPA

 

[Marin]

One thing to keep in mind is that the more you sand, the more the wood goes away. And wood that goes away does not come back.

That's why we use the heat gun-scraper method. If done properly with the right tools and the right use of heat, the finish will be removed with no, or very minimal removal of wood. All that''s need then is a light finish sanding--- we use 220 grit paper for this-- and the finish application can begin, with or without the use of CPES, your choice.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Good point Marin,
The wood around our stanchions is higher because of sanding down through the years. It's hardly noticeable but when we remove the stanchions and work on the rail it's easily seen to quite noticeable. I was supprised to see it. We now try to limit our sanding to paint. Easily done until one needs to strip. The trick I suppose is to try and make the torch do more work than the scraper and hold the scraper lightly.

 

[Marin]

Eric-- Yes. The heat gun will bubble up, wrinkle, or lift the old finish or paint at which point it can be "skimmed" off with the scrapers.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Have you ever used a wire brush for that?

 

[Marin]

Never. A wire brush scratches the wood and removes wood cells.

 

[Marin]

BTW scrapers are not a snap to use. It is very easy to use too much pressure or the wrong angle or both and slip and gouge the wood. This particularly true on curved surfaces like cabin trim and hand, grab, and cap rails.

There is no one correct technique. In my experience the correct technique is a continuously varying technique in which pressure, blade angle, direction of pull, and length of pull is matched to the shape and grain of the wood and the nature of the material being removed in each location.

My wife is far better at this than I am, probably because she is much more patient than I am.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
A large part of scraper usage is sharpness. Like a dull kitchen knife, you're much more likely to do damage with a less than razor sharp tool. When we did our cap rails, a sharp scraper was pretty well all we used-no heat what-so-ever. Peeled off quite readily with very little wood removal. Left a pretty smooth surface as well. Just a light sanding and Cetol (1 coat marine+2 coats clear). As Mr. Marin notes, finesse is required.

 

[Pack Mule]

Like others have said here a scraper is the best tool for the job . Keeping the rolled burr edge on the scraper is the hard part for me . The burr is what does the cutting . Fine cabinet makers always use cabinet scrapers and hardly ever sand . They get the scraper flat first , then sharpen it and then roll a burr with a hardened round rod . The right scraper with the right burr can remove some material quick and leave a nice finish . I need to practice with cabinet scraper more and sand less .

 

[Nomad Willy]

Pack Mule,
After using a tungston carbide blade I'll never use carbon steel again.

RT,
Indeed finesse is golden.

Marin,
After all the wonderful things you've said about your wife I have very high reguard for her.

 

[Pack Mule]

Eric , I should but I didn't know they made carbide scrapers .
What do you sharpen them with ? Or do you sharpen ? I've only ever used carbon
steel . See I need to get out more. Been snorting to much sawdust I guess . I use carbide saw blades and router bits for sure . Are there diamond impregnated scrapers also ?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mb. "After using a tungsten carbide blade I'll never use carbon steel again." Indeed, tungsten carbide (TC) will stay sharper longer BUT one can readily sharpen carbon steel. TC....forget about a resharpen unless you use a specialty or diamond wheel. I used a TC scoring tool in a previous life and as I said, NOT readily resharpened plus, consider the expense.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Never. A wire brush scratches the wood and removes wood cells.

Very true. But at the same time light scraping even with a heat gun doesn't always get the old finish out of the grain. Sometimes you have to let the scraper take down some wood to get the finish out of the pith.

 

[Marin]

.
Marin,
After all the wonderful things you've said about your wife I have very high reguard for her.

Well, any woman who can put up with the same man for more than ten years or so is pretty special, I think.

My wife is far more observant than I am, in the air, on the water, and on land. As such, and thanks to her Navy training way back when, she is a great navigator. She has an excellent sense of direction and can relate that to what she sees on a chart or map. I don't know that I've ever seen her not know where we are.

And she likes, or is willing, to work on the boats. Not just the wood finishing but plumbing, toilets, stoves, canvas, rebuilding windows, oil changes, painting, you name it, she'll pitch in.

Which, as every person with a spouse who enjoys participating in the same activities knows, makes doing what we do a whole lot more fun and rewarding.

I tend to get upset when something goes wrong. Being half French, I inherited from my father the French "glass half empty" outlook on life. So when something happens--- we have to shut an engine down underway or we discover a leak in a dinghy (our current challenge) or whatever-- I'm the one who gets upset and envisions the end of the world. My wife, on the other hand, keeps a level head and works on keeping us both focused on solving the problem. Once it's solved, THEN she gets upset.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin,
Thanks for the wife comments. Chris is very willing too. Excellent look out. Good cook. Bought her a new stove w oven and almost instantly realized I'd screwed up not getting it much sooner. Chris's ability to plan and organize is supreme.
Re your wife and her sense of direction I'm much the same. I feel like I'm on a different planet when I actually get disoriented. PS I was posting when you were.

PM,
No you don't sharpen TC scrapers. I think they are a bit sharper when first used (new) but I don't recall ever wearing one out. Try one.

RT,
No contest .. I'll take TC.

CaptBill,
I would think the wire brush would help w that. Marin thinks the wire brush will leave groves or scratches. Shouldn't be even slightly deep as for any one wire all the others will hold it up and prevent it from going below the surface.

 

[Marin]

A wire brush makes a ton of scratches which then have be sanded out. And wood that goes away never comes back. I tried using a wire brush a long time ago to remove failing paint on wood (not on a boat). Never again.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Was it very soft wood? .. like cedar?

Or was it fast growing wood like Hemlock that has wide soft wood between the hard "growth rings"? And I suppose brushing w the grain could easily rout out soft wood. The more I think about it the more I see it your way.

 

[Doug]

Like others have said here a scraper is the best tool for the job . Keeping the rolled burr edge on the scraper is the hard part for me . The burr is what does the cutting . Fine cabinet makers always use cabinet scrapers and hardly ever sand . They get the scraper flat first , then sharpen it and then roll a burr with a hardened round rod . The right scraper with the right burr can remove some material quick and leave a nice finish . I need to practice with cabinet scraper more and sand less .

The problem with Tungsten Carbide scrapers is that you can't shape the edge. As Pack Mule says it is the burr that does the cutting. A carbon steel edge can be sharpened and then shaped with careful filing.