USS Zumwalt (DDG 1000)

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Reminds me a bit of flying cars. Or amphibious cars. Design in lots of tech and features, and it can fly, drive and swim. Problem is that it can do none of these activities particularly well. Better off with a cheap airplane, a cheap car, and a cheap boat.

Sometimes you are better off with lots of inexpensive destroyers, submarines, aircraft, etc. Instead of designing something so packed with tech you can only afford a few of them.
 
Ski and like a motorsailer.

garrobito wrote;
"and that hull is not gonna stand a heavy storm..."
What have you seen of the hull? Just above the WL I suspect.
Why don't you think it wouldn't be seaworthy? The hull below the waterline could be just as different as the topsides. Probably not though other than to be somewhat deeper. I think to pass judgement on this design re seaworthyness would require a lot of research. Think of the level of expertise that was hired to design this ship.

And for those that think there will only be one think of the Merrimack. The first ironclad that had it's way w the Union Navy first time out. There were several iron clad ships that came after that Confederate/Union exchange. The fleet moving fwd could largely look like the Zumwalt for some time. Probably as long as radar is a major element of naval warfare. Could be more than decades.
 
Ski and like a motorsailer.

garrobito wrote;
"and that hull is not gonna stand a heavy storm..."
What have you seen of the hull? Just above the WL I suspect.
Why don't you think it wouldn't be seaworthy? The hull below the waterline could be just as different as the topsides. Probably not though other than to be somewhat deeper. I think to pass judgement on this design re seaworthyness would require a lot of research. Think of the level of expertise that was hired to design this ship.

And for those that think there will only be one think of the Merrimack. The first ironclad that had it's way w the Union Navy first time out. There were several iron clad ships that came after that Confederate/Union exchange. The fleet moving fwd could largely look like the Zumwalt for some time. Probably as long as radar is a major element of naval warfare. Could be more than decades.


I cannot cite here the long list of reputable naval engineers who opinied in a very negative way about this narrow hull.
It's simply too narrow...
You add a tall center... tower? center deck? name it... now, get a high ocean with more than 10' wave and whatever electronic you have onboard, it's gonna be unconfortable for the crew.. and an uncofortable crew under a storm is not a good combination to go at war on the ocean.
Besides, that impressive double band, solid state, radar, capable to track almost 200 target is just another possible fail waiting to happened. If you not have that impressive radar, you're a sitting duck on modern electronic war.
Now seems like the expensive IPS engines fail due water leaking..
I know (because I worked before with prototypes and brand new vessels) always you can get a glitch.. but a seal leaking.. hummm.. nop...
Again, I think it's too expensive, too modern, too much... and sensible to be destroyed for a cheap torpedo (remember second world war, italian attack).
It's about a cost/benefit.. I think cost is too high for this present moment..
 
garrobito,
I found an extensive thread "What about Navy's Stealth Destroyer - Zumwalt" on the design section of Boat Design. net.
I read quite a bit but surprisingly nothing about seaworthyness but I only scaned about 15-20% of the thread at 6-8 spots.
A thought ... OK she's narrow. But what if she has a gyro stabilizing system that actively controls the roll?
 
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In another example of fiscal and technological innovation, the Zumwalt ships are engineered for mission flexibility. Deployed as ocean escorts or guard vessels, they carry a set of equipment packages that are expressly configured for that purpose. Different weapons and support packages are tailored for littoral operations, etc. The flexibility exists to develop future packages for missions that the designers may never have contemplated.

Those packages are modules that can be serviced and updated ashore more quickly and at less cost than taking an entire vessel offline for an extended dockside availability. When the ship and module are ready, that package can be loaded aboard and plugged into the ships' networks. On board accommodations exist so that different mission specialist teams can move on and off the ship as needed, without the need to disrupt the regular ship's complement, or their duty rotations.
I may be wrong, but I think you have the definitions of the Zumwalts confused with the Littoral ships. I don't believe the Zumwalts are 'modular'

The huge expense of this ship (these ships) is going to preclude any great number bof them being built. In fact there may be only this one.

And like a few of our other VERY expensive new weapons, there is going to be a real reluctance by the military leadership to send them into harms way. I'm trying to recall that incident in Kosovo/Serba where the military failed to utilize a new group of advance fighter aircraft for fear of losing them??

This Zumwalt ship and those F-35's are going to suffer the same fate.

And meantime that want to decommission one of the greatest war aircraft we have going, the Warthog
Why the A-10 Warthog Is Such a Badass Plane
 
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Seawolf submarines anybody, to name just one of literally one hundred.
Are you claiming hundreds of Seawolf subs??

There were only 3, then replaced by the Virginia class subs.
The Seawolf class is a class of nuclear-powered fast attack submarines (SSN) in service with the United States Navy. The class was the intended successor to the Los Angeles class. Design work began in 1983. At one time, an intended fleet of 29 submarines was to be built over a ten-year period, later reduced to twelve submarines. The end of the Cold War and budget constraints led to the cancellation in 1995 of any further additions to the fleet, leaving the Seawolf class limited to just three boats.
 
That task could be accomplished with two arsenal ships that were rotating duty,...one off, one on duty at any one time. The off duty one could be close at hand in Japan.

I say semi-submerssible,.... Imagine such a vessel that was not totally a submarine, but rather floated so low in the water that just the 'coning tower' stuck out above the water surface,....decks awash most of the time. It would really present a minimal 'signature' to detection. It could be diesel-electric powered and loiter for days on end. It doesn't need great speed, or even great maneuverability. And it doesn't need a big crew. (perhaps it could be disguised as an iceberg....ha...ha)

It could be armed with multiple non-nuclear missiles designed specifically to run up the tailpipes of any ICBM launched in that part of the world. It would likely have an effectiveness of 100% in that mode.

Think of how much more effective, and far less expensive that would be compared to that giant anti missile system 'shield' they built up in Alaska


http://fas.org/rlg/garwin-aps.htm
Because of the ocean area east and north of North Korea, North Korean ICBMs aimed at the United States are an ideal target for ground- or sea-based boost-phase intercept. Specifically, it should be possible to use an interceptor of the same gross launch weight as the GBI of the NMD program (about 14 tons, with 12.5 tons of solid fuel) to boost the kill vehicle (of perhaps 60 kg mass and containing some 15 kg of liquid fuel) to a speed similar to that of the ICBM-- 7 km/s, but with larger engines relative to the mass, so it will reach its final speed more rapidly.

A simple calculation shows that the sea-based interceptor could be deployed as much as 2100 km downrange from the launch site and still be able to catch the ICBM while it is still burning. We assume a burn time of 250 s to ICBM speed of 7 km/s (an acceleration of three times that of gravity-- "3 g") while the interceptor acquires 7 km/s in 100 seconds--an average acceleration of 7 g. Because the interceptor must rise vertically in the lower atmosphere, it probably moves only about 250 km toward its target while it is burning, and then in the remaining (250-100) seconds moves some 1050 km. So in the burn time of the ICBM, the interceptor can reach out a total of 1300 km from its launch site. The ICBM at an average speed of 7/2 = 3.5 km/s in 250 s moves no more than 875 km from its launch site.

The interceptor could be deployed 1100 km east or west of the ICBM trajectory, about 800-1000 km downrange. So there is plenty of room for U.S. navy ships to carry these interceptors. The ships need have no missile-tracking radars.
 
The A10 is not really a bad a** warplane.

It is a terrific ground support tool against rock throwers.

The air force has a lot of specific mission aircraft...and people complain about that cost every day.

To defeat much of the world on two fronts cost probably more than any single nation can bear.

Choose the decision to go either way wisely.
 
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It might have worked out better if it wasn`t launched upside down.
 
I might suggest you have a look thru this video, AND the comments that follow.

How the A-10 Warthog became 'the most survivable plane ever built' | PBS NewsHour

Then tell me what other war plane has these many positive characteristics. And we could have them in BIG numbers as they are much more affordable, and productive, and survivable.

Well....I agree they are good at what we have used them for in the last 25 years but I disagree that they would have the same reputation against today's top armies.

It was a special built aircraft....and I will leave it at that.
 
The A-10 is a very effective, close air support platform that is invaluable in the type of wars we are currently fighting.
BUT we must retire the plane and replace it.
WHY you ask?
Because it is too cost effective.
The DOD recognizes that the annual cost of this awesome war machine is an embarrassment to their current development aircraft.
 
The A-10 is a very effective, close air support platform that is invaluable in the type of wars we are currently fighting.
BUT we must retire the plane and replace it.
WHY you ask?
Because it is too cost effective.
The DOD recognizes that the annual cost of this awesome war machine is an embarrassment to their current development aircraft.

Its NOT just the DOD that recognizes this, it is the VERY POWERFUL defense contractors that need all that new money spent on new programs.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against defense spending at all, I just think it needs better review than what occurs nowadays.
Besides Dwight Eisenhower warned us of the potential power of this growing Military Industrial Complex,....and also our temptation to use it unnecessarily/unwisely (as we have done in the recent past).
 
she must have some serious hp turning the props. 78mw worth the power on-board and only 600ft. for comparison i did some work on a 990 ft cruise ship with pods. it had a 60 mw plant(6 gen at 10 mw each) and could run 22 knots and have everything going and still only use 35 to 40 mw.
 
Brian Eiland wrote:

"I may be wrong, but I think you have the definitions of the Zumwalts confused with the Littoral ships. I don't believe the Zumwalts are 'modular'."

Disclosure: I'm a civilian, not Navy or even DoD, and certainly no expert. It's true that modularity is relative. LCSs (Littoral Combat Ships) are proportionately more flexible than the Zumwalt class destroyers. Really muscular modularity can be seen in the new San Antonio-class of Landing Platform Docks (LPDs), such as the USS New York (LPD-21). These have massive bays into which large numbers of mission-specific containers can be loaded.

The DDG-1000 destroyers are designed to accommodate proprietary mods that allow for reconfiguration or updating of systems, and loading of supplies and equipment pre-packaged for the appropriate mission or deployment. There's even an automated cargo-handling system. Hope it works better than the baggage-retrieval system at Heathrow.

Brian Eiland also wrote, "The huge expense of this ship (these ships) is going to preclude any great number bof them being built. In fact there may be only this one."

In fact, the next two in the class are presently under construction at Bath Iron Works in Maine, where the Zumwalt was built. They are the USS Michael Monsoor (DDG-1001), launched on June 21 this year, and the USS Lyndon B. Johnson (DDG-1002). In 2015, Bloomberg reported that the DoD was seriously considering cutting the LBJ as a cost-savings measure. By the end of that year, it announced that completing it would be more cost-effective. For a good deep-dive into the economics of the Zoomers, see Breaking Defense, here: Cuts To Zumwalt Destroyer Won’t Save Much « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

The really big picture question is, if the U.S. stops designing, building and operating sophisticated warships, what will happen to the nation's capacity to even attempt to do those things? It takes talent, continuing R&D, and highly specialized shipyards to turn steel into a class of capable fighting vessels. That stuff doesn't come cheap. I wish we didn't have to pour so much of our wealth into things we hope we never have to use, but in the present world, we do.
 
Arsenal Ship

Arsenal Ship vs Zumwalt

Actually the 'arsenal ship' was the original idea that then blossomed into the Zumwalt
Arsenal Ship, USN - Boat Design Forums


Arsenal Ships for Ballistic Missile Defense



It is welcome news the US Military won’t be placing vulnerable and intimidating anti-ballistic missile sites right up against the Russian border in Eastern Europe, but I fear the plan to place them on US Navy ships will do this service more harm than good. Already completely obsessed with land threats, the USN will now have less concern for the essential role of defending the sealanes. With a shrinking fleet and declining funds, they can hardly protect the fleet they have, let alone fight new space wars.

The Navy seems to consider the oceans as their own personal domain and it can afford to dispose of essential anti-submarine escorts and coastal warships, while building large Aegis battleships which are currently doing the work once performed by cheaper, less capable, but vital small warships. Already the cruisers and destroyers are duplicating the aircraft carrier’s land attack role, with 400 mile range cruise missiles and now are shouldered with yet another burden of defending our allies from rogue Iranian or North Korean rockets. Already we see the infighting of whether even more $2 billion new Burke destroyers will be needed, on top of the 60+ already in service or ordered. Colin Clark at DoD Buzz wonders about this conundrum:

One of the most difficult issues is, do we have enough Aegis cruisers to execute the mission. Gates wants two to three cruisers in the Mediterranean and North Sea on a regular basis. That comes on top of the Pacific mission. And I hear that the Aegis fleet is already operating at 160 percent of its readiness rate, mostly to cope with the North Korean threat. One source with detailed knowledge of European missile defense efforts said the new mission will require at least one and perhaps more Aegis class ships to do the job.

As an alternative to our over-worked missile battleships in the role of ABM defense, we would suggest reviving the 1990s proposal for an Arsenal Ship. You may recall this revolutionary hull design as an attempt to replace the Iowa class dreadnoughts with a low cost “missile barge”, until canceled in favor of a more traditional and more costly Zumwalt class destroyer. The arsenal ship was a great idea which never saw the light of day, but also refused to die out completely.

The modern concept would be to use a low-cost ship hull, preferably of mercantile specifications (T-AKE?) equipped with vertical launchers (VLS) for missiles. Keeping the hull cost low would mean the SM-3 missiles would be worth more than the ship, as it should be. Other benefits would be extremely low manning, which could allow for crew swapping, keeping the ship on station for as long as possible.

The arsenal ship would carry nothing but a basic navigation radar, but would depend on other Aegis vessels in service for targeting. This would not be stretch for the service, since common practice already is to use 2 vessels for this role, one for tracking the other as the shooter. In this case, instead of less than 100 Standard missiles on average with the 2 Burkes, there would be up to 1000 (just potentially though not very practical) on the arsenal ship alone! It may also be possible to use aircraft or satellites for targeting purposes, or even a low cost Aegis mothership proposed earlier on this site.

The cost of the hull would be run between $300-$500 million. The Standard SM-3 is priced at $10 million each with the older Block IV Standard at $1/2 million each, so depending on how many you can afford would be the ultimate cost of the vessel. When you think about the real cost, the relief to our sailors and stretched thin fleet for not adding yet another burden on them, the arsenal ship would be Priceless!

(BTW have you seen the final pricing on the Zumwalts
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I suspect we will build only one or two at that price,....stupid military spending)
 
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