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Old 12-19-2011, 11:52 AM   #21
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USPS Course Advice, Please

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charles wrote:
Note what I said abt it never ceases to amaze me how people will not tie their boats as PROFESSIONALS do.

Here is the article on the subject that I wrote for PASSAGEMAKER mag some years ago.

Your article is all very nice but it doesn't apply to the PNW (which you stated at the end of your piece).* Given that the PNW is actually a pretty big place and includes everything from Oregon up to and through Alaska, I would not tend to dismiss what is done here as simply an exception.*

Also, FWIW I took the time to observe how the Chinese coastal freighter crews tie up their boats when I've been over there.* Guess what--- the lines always stays fastened to the boat---regardless of the size of the boat--- and the bitter end goes ashore to the cleats or bollards or whatever.

So your comment or implication that doing this is not what PROFESSIONALS do is not accurate.* It may be what makes sense in the part of the world you live in, but there are plenty of other parts of the world where doing the opposite makes more sense and in fact is what PROFESSIONALS do in those regions.

Not a good idea, I think, to be preaching that a method you or people in your specfic region prefer is the ONLY way something should be done, particularly in light of the fact that a whole lot of other people in other places do it other ways for equally valid reasons.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 19th of December 2011 12:57:29 PM
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:21 PM   #22
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

Marin,

I do'nt know squat about what they do on the east coast other than what guys say here on TF .....never been there. And we could do the same thing here on the west coast. I do'nt think Charles is trying to make us look like insignificant fly stuff ......he's just talk'in about what he knows. Farmers in eastern Washington State are probably in the same category as all of us on the west coast are to those on the east coast. Having lived there I know people in Memphis Tenn think they are way out west. Everything IS relative but I do'nt think Charles is trying to put us down. And if you'd pay me nice compliments like Charles did I'd prolly play moma bear for you too.*
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:28 PM   #23
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USPS Course Advice, Please

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nomadwilly wrote:And if you'd pay me nice compliments like Charles did I'd prolly play moma bear for you too.*
*I did once, I think.* Or was it somebody else......?

What they do on the east coast is irrelevent to me since I don't boat there and never will.* They can leave their mooring lines permanently secured to their prop shafts if that's what works for them back there.* I just don't like blanket statements saying "This is the only way to do something" when it very clearly isn't.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 19th of December 2011 01:33:54 PM
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:05 PM   #24
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

That's funny Marin and I think you have and of course thanks and I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. I think Charles did'nt dismiss us as inconsequential but probably just assumed we made the same obvious good choices as the folks out east do. To assume the boaters on the east coast are as savvy as we are out west but that overlooks the fact that they are still on the east coast. But as you've pointed out many times in the past if they all saw the light and came out here we'd have a serious problem. But if the're really tying up to their prop shafts at least that a good secure place to tie. I wonder why they do'nt have bull rails?*
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:29 PM   #25
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

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Here is the article on the subject that I wrote for PASSAGEMAKER mag some years ago.

*When was the article published?
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:35 PM   #26
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

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Marin, I have not been to china but I have observed ocean going ships of many types and war ships in ports in a dozen countries , that is NOT THE WHOLE WORLD, but from which I speak what I described is what I have seen.


Then say so and don't imply that what you have said implies to everyone everywhere.* In the case of your "how to tie up a boat" article, it doesn't.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:38 PM   #27
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

Most boats around my area set up with the dock line eye to an onboard cleat, commercial fishermen included, unless one has a permanent berth on a float where one can leave a set of docklines all set up and ready to pick up as one berths. However, the transient docks, such as fuel docks, do not offer such pre-positioned lines since the lines have a uncanny tendency to end up in the water lurking for the unwary approaching prop.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:38 PM   #28
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

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Also, FWIW I took the time to observe how the Chinese coastal freighter crews tie up their boats when I've been over there.* Guess what--- the lines always stays fastened to the boat---regardless of the size of the boat--- and the bitter end goes ashore to the cleats or bollards or whatever.

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Add the USCG (San Diego) to taking the bitter end to the fuel dock every time they land. I certainly am not a yachting expert but I have been doing it the above stated way since buying my first big boat. Why? I like having the dock lines with me and at the ready should I decide to pull in somewhere other than my home slip.

I don't know if Chapman agrees with this or not. What I do know is that after giving it considerable thought, since I single hand 99% of the time & don't like people grabbing my lines, the above made the most sense to me.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:06 PM   #29
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USPS Course Advice, Please

I concur with Charles that the USPSdvanced Piloting course is a meat and potatos course. *With it you will be ready to take your boat anywhere but ocean passagemaking. *It covers all the essentials for piloting your boat. *Of course celestial navigation courses are offered if you are so inclined.


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Monday 19th of December 2011 03:52:08 PM
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:18 PM   #30
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

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I just cannot understand why anyone wants to hand over control of ones boat in a docking manuver to someone you dont know.

We don't do that either unless we know the people on the dock.* Otherwise one of us steps to the dock to secure the lines.* What's the big deal about this?* It's not dangerous, at least not on our boat with it's low freeboard.* Might be more diffucult with a sundeck boat.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:21 PM   #31
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

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More, the ease and safety of adjusting the lines during the night. That is all, if one really wants to get off of one's boat in a storm to get to the line on the dock so be it, just not me.

Almost without exception everyone here from rowboat people on up moors to floating docks. The huge tidal range precludes the of fixed piers except for ships.* We have never experienced any need to adjust lines once they are secured to the dock--- the dock and the boat maintain the same relationship from then on.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:47 PM   #32
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

Here in central California, we have tides up to*7 feet.** Small boat docks are all floating here.* For me, it's most convenient*with the bitter end tied to the dock.* Here at KKMI in Pt. Richmond (Santa Fe Channel) as well as home berth in Vallejo:
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:05 PM   #33
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

This is what Chapman has to say: "Dock lines frequently have en eye splice in one end but not the other.* You must decide whether to use the end with a loop on shore or on the boat.* If you are going to be on board, it is better to retain the plain end on board.* This means that you can make adjustments without getting off the boat.* If there will be no one on the boats, use the end with the eye on board; the plain end ashore will allow adjustment without the necessity of boarding."

Nevertheless, with floating docks there is usually no need to make adjustments once the lines have been initially*set to one's satisfaction.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:36 PM   #34
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

Large boats and ships use their winches/windlasses to adjust their dock lines, so obviously they have to have the non-looped, loose end onboard.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:03 PM   #35
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

So now we see why USPS courses are snoozers. If the subject thread were how to tie your vessel up to a dock then we'd be right on track by saying "many different ways can be utililzed so long as it is safe and secure for the crew and vessel." Or something like that.

Right now I am on our vessel which is securely affixed to the*docks at Roche Harbor. I type while my wife is Christmas shopping. Martini time beckons. Not once did this thread cause me to redo my dock lines!
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:47 PM   #36
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

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Marin, You are doing exactly what you accused me of. I said, in my article, again in my article, PNW excepted. Now you tell us abt the floating docks out there. I am talking about FIXED DOCKS and quays and pilings and the like.
*That's fine but unless I missed it--- and I may have although I*read your quoted article section*twice--- you never confine your comments to fixed docks specifically but imply that yours is the method that should be used on all docks period.* At least that's the way that I and several others interpreted it.* You talk about pilings and*cleats.* Well, we have pilings and cleats out here, too.** If you mean only*fixed docks, then say so at the outset.* Saves misinterpretation and attempts--- mental or otherwise--- to conform a process to a situation that's not suited for it.

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Old 12-19-2011, 06:26 PM   #37
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

Wizard, you have heard my opinion as well as others. *My suggestion is not take anyone's advice, but see for yourself. *Ask to check out the course material. *If it is possible, ask to check out the Advanced Piloting materials. *there are a couple of prerequisites for taking that level, but taking a look will let you know what is in store.

Kudos to you for wanting to learn the proper ways. *No matter what courses you take, you will adapt to what works best for you. *Good luck on your quest.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:56 PM   #38
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1. I have been on a boat out there several times and saw how people JUMP OFF OF THE BOAT WHILE IT IS STILL MOVING. Even saw some have their GUESTS do that.

2. Speaking of the Great Circle Cruise, we were tied to a concrete wall higher than the bow of my boat....OK lets cut to the chase, what would you have done in my case?
*1.* What's the big deal about that?* I see people jump from boats to*docks all the time and so far have never seen anyone get hurt.* Actually*most people don't jump, they step although on some boats it can be a long step down.* It's the ONLY way to*get onto a dock to pull a moving*floatplane to a stop and a zillion floatplane drivers do this daily without incident.* I've been stepping-- and occasionally jumping--*to*docks*to drag*a two and a half ton*floatplane to a stop since about 1980 and have never had a problem.

And since you seem to*have some abhorrance about the practice, if you really want to give yourself nighmares, watch a floatplane depart a dock sometime.* In most cases the plane is turned out 90 degrees from the dock and then the pilot not only*JUMPS*from the dock to the much lower*rear of the float but he*then RUNS up the narrow*float deck both to avoid*getting *his feet wet as his weight drives*the rear of the float underwater*as well as*to scramble up some thin aluminum bars into the cockpit as fast as possible*to get the engine started before the plane drifts or is blown into something expensive.

On the rare occasions we have guests on our boat we have*one of them perform the step-to-the-dock-with-the-line maneuver every time because the husband can usually do it faster and easier than* my wife who is rather short.* Sometimes the boat will still be moving very slowly when they do this,*depending on the wind and how fast we*need to get a line secured to the rail.* We make sure they know what to do when they get to the dock with the line, and in years of doing this nobody has ever experienced a problem.

I agree the potential of injury*is there with either the boat or the plane*but*the same potential for injury*exists crossing a street or climbing a ladder.***If one is not capable of doing it than one ought to not do it.

2.* In the case you describe, you were tied to a fixed dock, or wall in this case, that was a long ways above the boat.* So common sense would seem to indicate that the smartest move was to secure the lines in such a way that they could be adjusted from the boat since you couldn't get off the boat, safely or at all.

That's the thing about boating.* There is generally no "always do it this way" way.* I think 90 percent of boating is simply common sense.* In your area it apparently makes sense to put the loop ashore and the bitter end on board.* Out here it makes more sense to keep the loop aboard-- or if there isn't any loop keep one end of the line cleated to the boat---*and put the bitter end ashore.* Your system wouldn't work here because you'd still have to get the line to the dock to pass it around the bullrail.* Which means you or someone on board has to step or jump to the dock or there needs to be someone on the dock to take at least your first line and pass it around the bullrail and get it back to you.

In China where I observed crews securing coastal freighters*ranging from 60 to 120 feet long or so*to docks and piers, if the dock was low somebody jumped--- usually literally with the boat still moving and several feet out--- to the dock with a line and made it fast or put it around a bollard and then either jumped back aboard with the bitter end or tossed it to someone on board.* If the dock or pier was higher than the boat a crewman woud jump or scramble--- sometimes from the top of the pilothouse--- to the dock.* Some docks and piers had ladders inset into them at intervals for this purpose.* In one case I watched were the pier was too high to scramble onto from the boat and there was no convenient*inset ladder the boat*was brought up against the pier and a crude ladder was leaned out from the deck to the pier and a crewman scrambled up to secure the line.* In all cases, the mooring lines, fore, aft, and midships, were permanently spliced to--- not looped around--- fittings on deck.

This obviously works well for them as dangerous as it may seem to us.* I suspect they would*find your description of placing a loop of line over a piling or cleat from the boat*quite funny :-)

As a point of interest the canal boats in the UK*also*have their mooring lines permanently spliced to rings on the boat.* The lines are taken ashore--- sometimes jumping over several feet of water is the only way to do it--- a heavy iron stake is pounded into the bank with a lump hammer (short-handled sledge hammer), the line passed around the stake and then tossed or taken back to the boat.

So lots of ways to do things, no single one is right for all occasions or locations.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 19th of December 2011 08:09:19 PM
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:45 PM   #39
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

We have a very firm "no leaping" rule.* Its the skipper's job to bring the boat to a halt next to the dock.* If the line handler doesn't feel secure stepping to the dock she says so and I adjust.* Absolutely no leaping under any circumstances.

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Old 12-19-2011, 07:54 PM   #40
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RE: USPS Course Advice, Please

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bobofthenorth wrote:
We have a very firm "no leaping" rule.* Its the skipper's job to bring the boat to a halt next to the dock.* If the line handler doesn't feel secure stepping to the dock she says so and I adjust.* Absolutely no leaping under any circumstances.

*
*That is a very good rule. *My instructions are that no one leaves the boat until I direct them. *Also, it is emphasized that they never get any part of their bodies between the boat and an object. *A 32,000# boat with momentum can cause serious injury. *If I can't get the boat to the dock or piling, we don't need to be there.
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