The ultimate trawler

[psneeld]

Amen! As I stated previously, the mental gymnastics that have been posted on the engine efficiency subject don't mean much (if anything) to the recreational boater. There are so many other subjects that affect safety, comfort and cost that are relative to our boats.

Not sure that's what he's saying...

....and what's relevant in boating to some of us is obviously not to others...well...sorta obvious....

how obvious would it be to you to reduce your boating expenses by 25%...assuming your boating costs are 50% of your annual expenses and income?

 

[Codger2]

...assuming your boating costs are 50% of your annual expenses and income?

If that was the case, I certainly wouldn't be boating!

 

[psneeld]

If that was the case, I certainly wouldn't be boating!

Well for a LOT of cruisers, cruising on a budget is a way of life.

For the power cruisers...controlling fuel costs doesn't necessarily detract from their way of life and gives them "play money".

Some would never boat if they had to do all their own maintenance....some COULDN'T boat if they didn't.

So discussing it is beneficial to some who could use a break.

 

[Codger2]

Well for a LOT of cruisers, cruising on a budget is a way of life.

So discussing it is beneficial to some who could use a break.

Touche! I'll buy that!

 

[RickB]

Also is your 617% really supposed to be 6.17%? Couldn't get my head around that.

6.17 times 2.3 is ~14.2

 

[FF]

>Your time might be better spent in finding a way to move a reasonable load between A and B in the time you allot and in the most comfortable manner at a cost you are happy to accept. I don't think you will accomplish that by trying to micro-analyze engine efficiency.<

The problem is most boaters have almost ZERO interest in efficiency underway .

Sure a long skinny boat will be a far better sea boat than a beach ball, but with slip space charger by the foot , and few rec folks doing over 200 hours a year , the dock cost wins.

40 ft LOA 16 ft beam , 3 stories high is great views and huge volume, compare to 65 LOA 12 beam .

In a few locations the LOA x the Beam is used in the dock cost formula , but mostly to get bigger bucks from multihulls , not to lower the cost of a skinney boat.

Engine efficiency should include the cost of maint , and a kitty for eventual rebuild/replacement.

For most inshore US displacement boats GAS comes out the winner , tho the storage life hassle exists.

 

[Nomad Willy]

OK Rick I see the numbers.

Very good points FF.
I was shopping for a little bigger boat a while back but now that I'm not in the land of cheap federally provided moorage I'll just keep my little 30' boat. Even though I do like long and narrow now I'd rather my 10.5' wide Willard was 12' wide. But Willy isn't really narrow as is.

And yes gas would be fine for me but I'd be a little nervous about fire.

"ZERO interest in efficiency underway"? There's hundreds of posts on fuel burn and other related costs. Most all of us would be better off if we downsized our boats. But most will go the other way and then run single on a twin.

 

[sailalfin]

Any comments on Eagle 40 Trawlers would be appreciated. Interested in knowing about experiences with the wood superstructure, etc.

 

[Ben]

OK Rick I see the numbers.

Very good points FF.
I was shopping for a little bigger boat a while back but now that I'm not in the land of cheap federally provided moorage I'll just keep my little 30' boat. Even though I do like long and narrow now I'd rather my 10.5' wide Willard was 12' wide. But Willy isn't really narrow as is.

And yes gas would be fine for me but I'd be a little nervous about fire.

"ZERO interest in efficiency underway"? There's hundreds of posts on fuel burn and other related costs. Most all of us would be better off if we downsized our boats. But most will go the other way and then run single on a twin.

How do you get your dinghy on and off?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Sorry Ben I meant to cut everything from the quote but the "very good points FF" but forgot.

As to your question I don't. I have lowered it and retrieved it 8 or 10 times by hand. Boat weighs 85lbs. It was a grunt to pull up especially when the bow was 2' above the cabin roof. And it was hard not to fall off the roof.

Got a rubber duckie because it was lighter. Not light enough though. I should get another duckie w/o the heavy transom.

I have thought of a lightweight crane. I love the yellow dinghy and would really like to be able to launch it w OB and fuel ready to go. I'm now having thoughts re the thread "do you want a bigger boat". I have a way figured out how to use an 18' freight canoe. It would be launched straight aft over the stern w rollers on the aft edge of the cabin top and on the cap rail aft. Canoe has a self bailing well at the stern. Would look a bit funny and be a little extra windage.

This summer I'll probably just get rid of the present duckie and get a Duckie w/o the transom. 35 lbs I think.

 

[portager]

In a few locations the LOA x the Beam is used in the dock cost formula , but mostly to get bigger bucks from multihulls , not to lower the cost of a skinney boat.

The Long Beach marinas were talking about doing this, but in the end they just added a $0.92 per square foot wide slip fee. I was thinking that the LOA x beam formula would be more equitable, but then I realized that longer boats require wider channels so they can get into and out of their longer slips. So the formula should probably be 1.5 x LOA x beam, which would still favor shorter beamy boats.

 

[marcoh]

If I had some spare change I would be buying the Watson 60 which has just come on the market.

An opportunity ~ Bastion offered for sale!

 

[FF]

"“Bastion” W60 - hull 1, incorporates all the important elements of motor vessel design we have learned during more than 80 years and extending over 150 designs - vessels that have given many millions of miles service. These include:"

Wait till they list all the "improvements" in hull #2.

Every boat goes thru a maturing process in time , even those built by reputable & experienced yards.

Let me know when # 20 is on auction.

 

[stubones99]

Watson Motor Yachts

Did you see how they do the piping on those boats? While it is pretty, what would you do in the event of a leak? Since the piping is welded up, how would you replace a section? Does a TIG welder come with the boat?

At some point, you need to let it move or it will fatigue. Or is it the movement that causes the fatigue?

Also, do they x-ray all their welds to assure a good weld?

 

[kulas44]

My thoughts on the ultimate trawler are geared more toward open ocean travel than near coastal. Heavey full displacement hull, VERY stout paravane stabilization, overly strong super structure, smallish windows with thick laminated/tempered glass, pilothouse with comfortable berth, no large interior areas, galley down/center, large fuel/water capacity, non electronic engines, lots of stowage, complete access to all tanks, etc. Most of these things are not neccessary or even wanted on a coastal boat.

 

[Nomad Willy]

marcoh,
But of course that's a passagemaker .. not a trawler.

Many have the notion that the ultimate trawler is a passagemaker. There are many many desirable elements of a passagemaker that are undesirable or very undesirable in a trawler. The place where you sleep, the position on the boat of the wheelhouse, the wheelhouse windows, fuel tanks .. Their size, location, mounting ect. The amount of power, fuel consumption, fuel management systems ect.

The ultimate trawler is .. no way .. a passagemaker.

PS you should put that boat pic in the current bow wave thread.

 

[Mako]

My thoughts on the ultimate trawler are geared more toward open ocean travel than near coastal... non electronic engines

I'd say the days of building a new boat and equipping it with non-electronic engines are over. I've done lots of research and we have a couple of threads about it as well. If you're homebuilding and want to install a tractor engine then go ahead and no issues with government regs.

However a shipyard construction needs to be Tier3 in America, soon to be Tier4. Europe is as stringent.

Put a non-compliant engine in your new-build and document it in the Cocos Islands and honestly you've eliminated 99% of the buyer's market, if resale is any concern.

Just my two-cents...

 

[stubones99]

I'd say the days of building a new boat and equipping it with non-electronic engines are over. I've done lots of research and we have a couple of threads about it as well. If you're homebuilding and want to install a tractor engine then go ahead and no issues with government regs.

However a shipyard construction needs to be Tier3 in America, soon to be Tier4. Europe is as stringent.

Put a non-compliant engine in your new-build and document it in the Cocos Islands and honestly you've eliminated 99% of the buyer's market, if resale is any concern.

Just my two-cents...

There goes reliability...

The old 'tractor engines' were about as bulletproof as they could make them. The new electronic control systems on diesels today are anything but bulletproof. If only their was a standby method (a get-home) mode on the electronic injectors to let them still work in some capacity...

I understand that we need to be aware of our carbon footprint and all those things but when you are driving a single engine boat out of sight of land, it needs to be bulletproof.

Speaking of tractor engines, I grew up working on Deutz tractors, and was the youngest certified mechanic at 13. I have seen some tractors that were abused by their owners (run upside down??) or have the cooling manifold packed tight with wheat straw, and still running. Sometimes it would take longer to steam clean the dirt and gunk off the engine than it did to do the work on the engine. My late father was the 2nd Deutz dealer in North America and he was a good teacher about many things.

My ideal trawler would be to have a Bruce Roberts steel trawler with a couple of Deutz 5 or 6 cylinder air cooled engines (rebuilt ones from the late 1970's). Last year, at the TrawlerFest in FL, I heard an engine running at about 2100 rpm and I told Aiden "That sounds like a Deutz engine" and I walked over to the construction site and saw a Deutz 6 cylinder engine driving a sludge pump...

The last Deutz engine I rebuilt ran another 50,000 hours after that. I doubt any of the newer engines will ever see that number of hours with that low maintenance costs. In those days, oil change schedule was 400 hours or 6 months whichever came first. Those were the days...

 

[bfloyd4445]

There goes reliability...

The old 'tractor engines' were about as bulletproof as they could make them. The new electronic control systems on diesels today are anything but bulletproof. If only their was a standby method (a get-home) mode on the electronic injectors to let them still work in some capacity...

I understand that we need to be aware of our carbon footprint and all those things but when you are driving a single engine boat out of sight of land, it needs to be bulletproof.

Speaking of tractor engines, I grew up working on Deutz tractors, and was the youngest certified mechanic at 13. I have seen some tractors that were abused by their owners (run upside down??) or have the cooling manifold packed tight with wheat straw, and still running. Sometimes it would take longer to steam clean the dirt and gunk off the engine than it did to do the work on the engine. My late father was the 2nd Deutz dealer in North America and he was a good teacher about many things.

My ideal trawler would be to have a Bruce Roberts steel trawler with a couple of Deutz 5 or 6 cylinder air cooled engines (rebuilt ones from the late 1970's). Last year, at the TrawlerFest in FL, I heard an engine running at about 2100 rpm and I told Aiden "That sounds like a Deutz engine" and I walked over to the construction site and saw a Deutz 6 cylinder engine driving a sludge pump...

The last Deutz engine I rebuilt ran another 50,000 hours after that. I doubt any of the newer engines will ever see that number of hours with that low maintenance costs. In those days, oil change schedule was 400 hours or 6 months whichever came first. Those were the days...

I like your choice of boat but as for engines there are lots of erly engines that seem to run forever to choose from for power like the Ford Lehman for one

 

[Mako]

Hi stubones99, I see you're from Merritt Island. There's a big soft place in my heart for that little spit of land. Was living there when in college and my dad still does after 30 years, right across from Patrick AFB.

I agree with your comments about needed dependability of one's engine, and personally my ideal "tractor" engine would not be a Deutz but instead I would go back to my old DD6-71N.

I am concerned about the reliability of the electronics of my new engine considering that I will be sailing in remote locations. Will rig a backup sail plan to push me along at one or two knots when needed.

I have to admit though that the fuel consumption on these new engines is amazing compared to the old iron. 22 hp/g-hr versus about 16 on the Gray Marine. Since I'll soon be pushing 60 tons through the water, that savings will surely add up.

 

[devorenm]

I like your choice of boat but as for engines there are lots of erly engines that seem to run forever to choose from for power like the Ford Lehman for one

I don't know that its fair to compare old NA Lehman's to electronically controlled high HP volvos/cummins QSB etc. It does seem the volvos and cummins have some issues that the Lehman's don't but it seems to be related to the exhaust systems (when neglected) and their forced induction systems as well as their tendency to run at higher RPMs. These engines however can do things that the Ford Lehman couldn't dream of doing with tremendous efficiency - like other things boat related - a compromise.

Given the choice between a modern electronic John Deere/Northern Lights/Yanmar in the middle of the Atlantic compared to an air cooled deutz I'll pick the electronic time and time again.

 

[kulas44]

Ok, go read the post "my cummins just stopped". That $hit aint gonna work for me 1500 miles out in the Atlantic. Electronic controlled diesel engines are NO BETTER than electronic controlled gas engines. The best thing about diesel engines, back in the day of real compression ignition engines was that if you could make it spin you could make it run. I can make a Cummins or DD run. I can get a DetroitDiesel to run on 1 cylinder, continuously. Try that with a QSB.

 

[devorenm]

Ok, go read the post "my cummins just stopped". That $hit aint gonna work for me 1500 miles out in the Atlantic. Electronic controlled diesel engines are NO BETTER than electronic controlled gas engines. The best thing about diesel engines, back in the day of real compression ignition engines was that if you could make it spin you could make it run. I can make a Cummins or DD run. I can get a DetroitDiesel to run on 1 cylinder, continuously. Try that with a QSB.

I would assume that is why you don't see many Cummins (or other high HP low displacement forced induction) diesels on passagemakers (Though I know there is at least one Nordy with Cummins motors) . But you do see many JD/Yanmar/Northern Lights engines rated for continuous use in them and I don't see too many people complaining about getting stuck in the middle of the pacific. I guess theoretically in the event that the mains give up the ghost there is some advantage to an all mechanical motor but I would imagine most of the folks buying passage-makers are willing to risk having to run on the get home in the highly unlikely event of a catastrophic electronic failure of the mains then to have to live with the downsides of the old mechanical motor all the other times.

 

[stubones99]

Ok, go read the post "my cummins just stopped". That $hit aint gonna work for me 1500 miles out in the Atlantic. Electronic controlled diesel engines are NO BETTER than electronic controlled gas engines. The best thing about diesel engines, back in the day of real compression ignition engines was that if you could make it spin you could make it run. I can make a Cummins or DD run. I can get a DetroitDiesel to run on 1 cylinder, continuously. Try that with a QSB.

Any engine that depends on the electronics to run adds another point of failure to the system. Simpler is better, even at the expense of fuel consumption and carbon footprint. The old days engine only used the battery for starting, and glow plugs on a very cold day (only during starting).

 

[FF]

Folks with an older mechanical injection diesel might want to contemplate a gravity feed from a day tank, to the engine for even better reliability.

 

[eyschulman]

Any engine that depends on the electronics to run adds another point of failure to the system. Simpler is better, even at the expense of fuel consumption and carbon footprint. The old days engine only used the battery for starting, and glow plugs on a very cold day (only during starting).

That is why a motor sailor or sail axillary is the superior open water boat. Pure power boats have been invading open water but if there is no redundant drive system the gamble gets bigger.

 

[devorenm]

That is why a motor sailor or sail axillary is the superior open water boat. Pure power boats have been invading open water but if there is no redundant drive system the gamble gets bigger.

I think the more important truth here is that marine diesels (old ones, new ones, whatever) rarely fail and when they do it is due to fuel issues which will disable your wing/second engine as well. The passage-makers deal with this in a number of ways but a sail is the most robust alternative.

 

[markpierce]

That is why a motor sailor or sail auxillary is the superior open water boat. Pure power boats have been invading open water but if there is no redundant drive system the gamble gets bigger.

Thus, power-boaters live on the "edge"?

 

[bfloyd4445]

Hi stubones99, I see you're from Merritt Island. There's a big soft place in my heart for that little spit of land. Was living there when in college and my dad still does after 30 years, right across from Patrick AFB.

I agree with your comments about needed dependability of one's engine, and personally my ideal "tractor" engine would not be a Deutz but instead I would go back to my old DD6-71N.

I am concerned about the reliability of the electronics of my new engine considering that I will be sailing in remote locations. Will rig a backup sail plan to push me along at one or two knots when needed.

I have to admit though that the fuel consumption on these new engines is amazing compared to the old iron. 22 hp/g-hr versus about 16 on the Gray Marine. Since I'll soon be pushing 60 tons through the water, that savings will surely add up.

The improvement comes from closer tolerances and computer control of fuel air ratio in relation to engine load and altitude. I've been toying with the idea of converting one of the old irons just to see how one would do. The cpu can keep the f/a ratio correct at all times but would require electronic injectors for D, gas could be easy with the installation of a simple throtle body based system

 

[kulas44]

I read a report about converting a Detroit 4-53 to electronic controll. They used the injectors and ECM from a 4-71 DDEC. At the end of it they hadnt found a way to raise the rpm limit in the ECM. The 4-53 does well at 2800 rpm, the 4-71 ECM was limited to 2100.