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Old 08-17-2013, 07:46 AM   #201
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I think you will find these vessels have quite a nice big salon with great big window vista,.....and a nice flybridge as well
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:18 PM   #202
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There is a thread on Rhodes and Alden boats on BoatDesign.net

It's in the "design" section.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:05 PM   #203
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All these MS are great , if you want to cross blue water, however they seem to have little to offer the folks that want to cruise on the water.

The trawler and marine motorists seem to prefer to be UP where the view is , not down below , looking out an 8 inch port.

Yes the larger deck house does make a big difference in living , IF it can double as the main salon, but not enough to make a sales difference.
I agree with the issue of looking out an 8 inch port. I get claustrophobic in most sailboats.
Also, I need a boat that will be semi-comfortable in 3-4 ft of choppy swell, and safe in 6-8 ft. Most trawlers in my price range don't meet this requirement.
That is why I ended up with a motor sailer. The deck house does contain the main salon as most MS's do, although mine is a little tight. Only so much you can design into 30 ft.
I still consider it a Trawler when the sails are down.

Future plans may require more blue water capability. This would be the next step.

BTW - so many great boats on this thread. There isn't one that I don't admire.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:19 AM   #204
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This 50' aluminum beach-able Gerr design, Impossible Dream, sure gets my sea kayaking juices flowing because you could tuck yourself away in all kinds of nooks and crannies where other boats couldn't anchor. Having an over 3000 mile range would mean being able to explore BC and Alaska's coast for extended periods of time without having to come back to civilization to fuel up. Me-thinks a bow thruster and gyro unit would be seriously considered additions.

It is aptly named for me however, as my "Happy and Humble" lifestyle choices have left me little financial wiggle room...

http://www.gerrmarine.com/power_50.html
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:52 AM   #205
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I've always admired that design as well.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:16 AM   #206
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Here's a bit more info from Gerr's Impossible Dream link above:

Quote:
50-foot aluminum Sea Bright skiff ocean voyaging motorcruiser, 3,500 mile range, beachable on Sea Bright skiff box keel, with 4 foot 3 inch draft

LOA: 50 ft. - 6 in. (15.3 m)
LWL: 46 ft. - 0 in. (14.0 m)
Beam: 14 ft. - 9 in. (4.5 m)
Draft: 4 ft. - 3 in. (1.3 m)
Propeller Dia: 2 ft. - 5 in. (74 cm)
Displacement: 24.8 tons
Power: (1) 270-hp Cummins B
Speed: 11.5 knots max, 9 to 10 knots cruise
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:00 AM   #207
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>9 to 10 knots cruise<

I would assume this is the inshore , lakes and bays cruise , to go claimed 3,500 mile range ,the entire vessel would need to be a fuel tank.

Perhaps about 7K , 3500nm is possible.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:08 AM   #208
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>9 to 10 knots cruise<

I would assume this is the inshore , lakes and bays cruise , to go claimed 3,500 mile range ,the entire vessel would need to be a fuel tank.

Perhaps about 7K , 3500nm is possible.
The resolution is pretty crappy, but I'm pretty sure those large tanks are 850 gallons apiece;
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:38 AM   #209
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I would think that shroud around the propeller would eliminate prop walk.

I would want a higher wheelhouse for better visibility seaworthiness be damed.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:54 PM   #210
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850 gal +850gal =1700 gal total

3500miles /1700gal = 2gph.

A boat this size would never get 9-10K on 2 gph

Maybe 6K ,if single engine with cruising prop..
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Old 08-22-2013, 04:00 PM   #211
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I agree w Fred except the "cruising prop" thing.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:42 PM   #212
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Isn't it a common trait among designers to state a boats cruising speed as being a wee bit under hull speed, yet give the boats range somewhere around half throttle? The numbers never really add up...
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:19 PM   #213
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Isn't it a common trait among designers to state a boats cruising speed as being a wee bit under hull speed, yet give the boats range somewhere around half throttle? The numbers never really add up...
Take a builder's range claims with a grain of salt. Seahorse Marine's website says the 14-ton Coot has a range variously of 1400 and 1800 nautical miles for 390 gallons at 7 knots (fraction of a knot less than hull speed). Nevertheless, to go 7 knots requires over 2000 RPM from the JD4045. This equates to a theoretical range (without reserve) of about 1200 miles.

Regardless, my Coot has a fuel capacity of just 318 gallons, for a theoretical range of 980 miles at 7 knots. At half throttle (1600 RPM), the theoretical range is 1400 miles moving nearly 6 knots an hour.
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:01 PM   #214
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Take a builder's range claims with a grain of salt. Seahorse Marine's website says the 14-ton Coot has a range variously of 1400 and 1800 nautical miles for 390 gallons at 7 knots (fraction of a knot less than hull speed). Nevertheless, to go 7 knots requires over 2000 RPM from the JD4045. This equates to a theoretical range (without reserve) of about 1200 miles.

Regardless, my Coot has a fuel capacity of just 318 gallons, for a theoretical range of 980 miles at 7 knots. At half throttle (1600 RPM), the theoretical range is 1400 miles moving nearly 6 knots an hour.
Still far better than most boats in that class, no? When I scan "trawlers" on YW it sure seems like everything under 40' has twins with over 500hp aboard. I know this is because most boats in that range are semi-displacement hulls zooming to an anchorage for the weekend, but jeepers small boats with small motors seem to be few and far between - especially new boats! Maybe I'm missing some new build, low HP, full displacement boats? Or maybe I just can't look past those good looking AT Tugs (with the big engines)?

Why the difference between stated fuel capacity and measured capacity on your Coot?

Love the Coot, BTW if I haven't already said so!
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:38 PM   #215
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Take a builder's range claims with a grain of salt. Seahorse Marine's website says the 14-ton Coot has a range variously of 1400 and 1800 nautical miles for 390 gallons at 7 knots (fraction of a knot less than hull speed). Nevertheless, to go 7 knots requires over 2000 RPM from the JD4045. This equates to a theoretical range (without reserve) of about 1200 miles.
Mark, wonder if the builder calculations are based upon the Iveco standard engine rather than your John Deere? If I recall the JD was an option last time I looked at the Seahorse site.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:45 PM   #216
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Some of the HP hype in boats actually come from the engine manufacturer. A builder is buying reliable 240 HP diesels for a few years and suddenly the 315HP version becomes the same price as the 240, and the next year the 240 is no longer available. Eventually, they engineer a smaller block to get 240 HP, and voila, you've got your 240 HP back again, but in a block that is much higher stressed than the old reliable block you used to have. In truck engines, this goes on and on and on, and ultimately, one ends up with something like a 425 HP 3208 Cat, and the limited life that goes with it. The impulsiveness of the retiring baby-boomers, whom rather hear the number 315 than they would 240, will likely keep it that way for the foreseeable future.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:05 AM   #217
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Some of the HP hype in boats actually come from the engine manufacturer. A builder is buying reliable 240 HP diesels for a few years and suddenly the 315HP version becomes the same price as the 240, and the next year the 240 is no longer available. Eventually, they engineer a smaller block to get 240 HP, and voila, you've got your 240 HP back again, but in a block that is much higher stressed than the old reliable block you used to have. In truck engines, this goes on and on and on, and ultimately, one ends up with something like a 425 HP 3208 Cat, and the limited life that goes with it. The impulsiveness of the retiring baby-boomers, whom rather hear the number 315 than they would 240, will likely keep it that way for the foreseeable future.
Ah, I see. Makes sense. Maybe I'm stingy, but I like to hear the number 150!

Is it safe to assume that between two identical 'tugs' the 210HP version will have a lower fuel burn at a given speed than the newer 330HP version?
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:23 AM   #218
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Animal wrote;

"small boats with small motors seem to be few and far between"

How about the number 40? There are some small boats here w full displacement hulls and a reasonable amount of power. The 30' Willard's came originally w 33 useable hp and managed very well w that amount of power even displacing twice as much as most 30' boats.

But if you aspire to have such a boat there will be few to look at in the marketplace. However they are there and at this time not any more expensive than inefficient boats of the same size.

"Is it safe to assume that between two identical 'tugs' the 210HP version will have a lower fuel burn at a given speed than the newer 330HP version?"

Yes ... all things being equal but of course much of the time they are not. That's why running single on a twin saves fuel ... you cut the size of the engine/engines in half. 100% reduction in cylinder displacement.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:45 PM   #219
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Is it safe to assume that between two identical 'tugs' the 210HP version will have a lower fuel burn at a given speed than the newer 330HP version?
Not really......but there are a bunch of variables.

At a given speed the hull resistance is equal no matter what the power. But the weight (displacement) may have increased with the larger engine (larger cooling and exhaust systems, heavier shaft, larger gear box, larger propeller,etc). Then there's the propeller efficiency, it will change with diameter/pitch and rpm changes. Then there's specific fuel consumption.

If you look at the lowest (#6) curve on the chart below, you see it's called Specific Fuel Consumption and the units are LBS/HP/HR (pounds per horsepower hour) or G/KW/HR (grams per kilowatt hour). Note that below about 1400 and above 2000 RPM the specific consumption increases sharply. If you're operating within that lowest consumption "Bucket", it's good. But if you install bigger power and operate at lower RPM, thus falling outside the bucket, it can be worse than it should be.....

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Old 08-24-2013, 06:00 AM   #220
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TAD has posted the usual almost useless graphs pushed by the engine folks.

Its useful for full throttle operation , after that its all math speculation concerning prop hp ,loading and fuel burn..

The problem is the fuel burn curves are for a fully loaded engine at that operating RPM.

To fully load the engine at every operating RPM impossible to do , even a 2 speed tranny and CP setup would be far from optimum loading at most cruise settings..


Does it matter is a different question , at 2 or 3 GPH , a 20% burn penalty only would matter to a voyager , not an inshore boat.

IF you can access Pro Boat Builder this month there is a rare more accurate fuel / power curve shown , but these are usually kept from the public.

Called a fuel map , they are almost impossible to obtain .
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