Two questions regarding the Great Loop

[O C Diver]

So I found another website with all the pictures and more details.

It's very clean inside, especially the engine room. The engines are still 30+ years old and still need a good survey.

There doesn't appear to be a sound enclosure for the generator. With an electric galley it could be noisey.

No mention of air conditioning which wouldn't surprise me for the great lakes, but probably a necessity for the Southern portion of the Loop.

Maybe it's a typo but a 22 gallon holding tank is really small. The 100 gallon freshwater tank isn't great. If you plan to spend all nights in a marina, this may not be an issue.

Ted

 

[Bigsfish]

22 gallons is one good flush for me.

 

[ranger58sb]

I am getting more confused about this bridge height issue. The number seems to be moving around some between 17' and 19'6". Is the South Branch of the Chicago river the only way through? ... This 19' bridge height boat I am looking at could be a real challenge under a 19'6" bridge and impossible if what I am reading here is the only way around the loop.

See Ted's post #33. Seems to be three ways through, tallest being the 19'6" bridge.

Ah; I see now the subsequent posts and that's he's answered.

"19' clearance from the windshield" (presumably the venturi windscreen on the bridge) probably doesn't account for other stuff: VHF radio antennas, radar arrays, masthead/anchor light mounts, etc.

-Chris

 

[moparharn]

Thank you all for your insight. A sobering read it was. There is a website called boaters resources that has the old listing. A search under LePage trawler for sale brings it up. That listing shows the draft at 4’6” I think, and it also has pictures of the boat out of the water. I really liked the Portuguese bridge and the clean engine room. I am a sucker for clean engine rooms. I like the Cummins for their general popularity and parts/service availability. The Cherubini in Ohio was 300k and it was a dream boat. I thought this boat at 100k (my rough valuation without seeing it) was something unusual and spacious. I am 6’3” and 245lbs and really hit hard with arthritis (several joint replacements and spinal surgeries). I want wide side decks and plenty of engine room if possible. I love my Bertram, but washing the side of the bridge is nearly impossible for me and working in the engine room usually requires floor removal. When I see a trawler with an engine room door I just smile and think of the relative ease. I am surprised I did not think of air conditioning. Thank you very much for your observations. What a help this forum has been.
Bill

 

[catalinajack]

See Ted's post #33. Seems to be three ways through, tallest being the 19'6" bridge.

Ah; I see now the subsequent posts and that's he's answered.

"19' clearance from the windshield" (presumably the venturi windscreen on the bridge) probably doesn't account for other stuff: VHF radio antennas, radar arrays, masthead/anchor light mounts, etc.

-Chris

Nope. Only two routes to get from Lake Michigan to the Illinois River. One is through downtown Chicago through the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal. The other way is through the Cal-Sag Canal.

 

[ranger58sb]

Nope. Only two routes to get from Lake Michigan to the Illinois River. One is through downtown Chicago through the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal. The other way is through the Cal-Sag Canal.

Ah. I see now that Ted's "third option" in his post #33 was about the Erie Canal.

-Chris

 

[Seevee]

moparharn,

First it's really a great adventure and most everyone loves it, however, you'll get your best info from those who have done it, perhaps twice or more. And even then the opinions will still vary.

Air draft limits for the Great Loop
1. Chicago River ... downtown route the air draft is 17 ft.
2. Calumet Sag Sanitation Canal ... 19 ft. 7 inch (new charts)
3. Erie Canal from Albany to Oswego ... 20 ft.
4. Western half of Erie Canal ... 15 ft. 5 inches OR less
(with high pool levels after heavy rains as little as 15.0 ft.)
5. Lake Champlain Route & Richelieu River ... 17 ft.
6. Rideau Waterway ... 22 ft.
7. Trent-Severn Waterway ... 22 ft.

Water draft (navigable depth) limits for the Great Loop
Limits are measured from the lock sill to the water level of the lock.
1. Chambly Canal / Richelieu River ... 6.5 ft.
2. Rideau Waterway ... 5 feet (Ottawa to Kingston)
3. Trent-Severn Waterway ... 6 feet (Trenton to Port Severn)

Beam limits for the Great Loop
1. Lock 45 on the Trent-Severn Waterway has an operational width of
23 feet.
2. The Marine Railway at Big Chute on the Trent-Severn Waterway has
a beam width limit of 24 feet.

I completed the Loop last year in pretty much on what you'd call an average boat. 40ft Mainship single engine, less that 17 air draft so we did the Chicago river (one of the highlights on the loop). Draft is 3.8, non issue, excepting low tides on the lower AICW in GA and SC. Easy boat to own operate, maintain, easy engine access, etc.... and there's hundreds of similar. You can fine tune it to what fits for you.


...more to come

 

[Seevee]

moparharn,

After completing the loop here's some of the things to consider: And involve your lady in everyone of them.

The very FIRST thing to do is join AGLCA, and for SURE attend one of their rendezvous gatherings. I did that prior to my trip and made a HUGE difference, as it a lot of fun. And get info from the other sources mentioned. Skipper Bobs, Waterway guides, Capt John, Navigation Notes, Book of Anchorages, etc. And talk with others that have similar philosophies. Do you like to anchor a lot, go out to dinner or cook on the boat, hang a long time at one place or perhaps do the loop over several years, etc.

Next, WITHOUT A DOUBT, get time on the boat, take short trips and live on it for several days at a time and refine exactly what works. Do trips just like you would on the loop... have you parameters of what you do and don't do, alternates, options, etc. Train with a captain a bit, even if experience, it will help. And without a doubt train as a TEAM. Have your signals nailed, limits nailed and backups and emergencies trained for. Both should take turns at the helm and throwing a line. For me, my co captain is small and short and couldn't throw a line 50 feet so she would typically operate the helm and I'd throw lines. We had our communication nailed. When I said "beer", she already had one in her hand (certainly after setting the anchor).

Equip your boat the way you want it using the experience from above. Be sure everything is in excellent shape and you have personally experienced doing some of the routine maintenance.... oil, filters, belts, etc.

Nail down the electronics you need. I installed a phone power booster and an AIS, and a few other things, which should have been done before leaving the dock. DON'T MESS WITH OLD ELECTRONICS, dump them and get good reliable ones. There's nothing worse than having your plotter fail just as you leave or the radar fail just as you enter the fog. I put most electronics new in my boat and it was nice and trouble free. I did have a frustrating first few weeks with a lot of failures, but had the spares and fixed things and continued. Was also trying too hard to rush things as I got a late start (BAD).

Arrange your galley. Figure out what works. If you need an extra electric freezer, have a place for it, have a place for your appliances that's easy to get to so cooking is easy. Figure out how to arrange your pantry(s), which are often in the second bunk room, or in storage under the seats and have a "boat list" of where things are so you can find it. Figure out what foods work for you, lean on non perishables if you can.

Figure out what tools you'll need and what spare parts and hardware you'll need. And organize them so you can find stuff and add it to your "boat list".
There's a whole section and threads on this one. Fortunately, I was well equipped, not horribly expensive, but gave out a lot of hardware to folks that had none. Certainly, have enough spares for oil changes, filters, belts, hoses, clamps, etc.

... more

 

[moparharn]

Thank you

Again. This is very kind of you to offer your experience. I really think that beginning this now (4-7 years early) is a good way to what we used to call in drag racing”bench racing”. Thinking it out and talking it out. Just what I am learning about the loop capable boats and other boats I have been considering is huge. It is too bad there are some restrictions. Some of the boats I really like might not do well on the loop. I suppose if one of those boats becomes a “must have” I consider a modified cruise over the loop. My great great grandfather was an Arctic sea captain from St. John’s Newfoundland. He sailed the ill fated Greeley expedition into Smiths sound on what is now called Ellesmere Island. He also lost his ship trying to rescue them two years later and had to row a thousand or so miles out of the Arctic ice fields. A trip to St Johns would be amazing, but too dangerous for an older couple in a coastal boat. Maybe we cruise to PEI and land travel to NFL.

 

[Seevee]

Now, the boat.....

There's tons of choices, and you've already said you want a big boat that's easy to get around on. They are out there. The rendezvous will allow you to look at a bunch.

Now, can you live with a V birth or do you need a king bed (you're tall, so the V birth on most boats will be a compromise. Do you want a dry shower, do you want stairs or will ladders work? Do you want a fly bridge or perhaps a pilot house that may be easier to get around? Do you need a walk around on the outside of the boat for easy docking and locking? Do you want to anchor a lot or hang out at marinas.

You'll want to determine want size battery bank you need (could argue starting with a min of 200a usable), inverter for 110v stuff?

Is this boat a keeper or a short term "for the Loop" boat. If short term I could argue to get a popular one that will sell when you're done.

For size..... when you get "big" you'll limit your marina choices, often having to come in at the end of the day and take up the fuel dock and leave the next morning. I saw that several times on the loop, with boats in the 50+ range and the wide cats up to a 65 Fleming. The Fleming was a great Loop boat and the guy is a great captain, and knew how to live with his limitations which worked well. If you're huge, it's possible to get caught where no place can handle you and there's no anchorages and that sucks.

If you really want that Cherubini, go for it. We saw a few and they had no issues, are comfy and a really nice boat.

 

[moparharn]

That is quite a laundry list.

My size is likely to have significant bearing on the answers to those questions. V berth is highly unlikely, as is a smaller or double size bed. I want to be with my wife, but I need room and roll around all night in pain. Over under or bunks could work if quality mattresses and larger size. Bridge or pilot house? Both please. I could live with either but really like some of the pilot house trawlers I have seen lately. Walk around decks are much preferred. No more crawling around like a monkey. I want us to stay on board and cleaning to be easier. I have owned hundreds of muscle and classic cars until wallet and spine surgery put an end to it all. I tend to want to parlay one toy into another. It is my nature. Resale is fundamental to any decision I make so either a less known boat purchased cheaply, or a blue chip purchased right. Have you seen the canoe stern Sparkman and Stevens in the classified forum here? What a gorgeous boat that one is. My concerns might be moisture/age, how easily engine repair replacement is, overall length, and ease of water access. I love to swim and so does my dog. Battery capability is important as I prefer to run the Genny as little as possible. No wet shower please, the less work involved the better. I prefer marinas to anchorage for security and socialization reasons. More for my wife to do onshore than off. The Cherubini is a reach at this point, the S &S is closer, and the LePage is quite doable. So much depends on my future finances, but the time for planning is now. Great input and guidance. Thank you again for sharing your experience. Bill

 

[Mark P]

Seevee:. What was your fuel burn on the loop? I am thinking of a similar boat set up for the loop and would like an estimate on fuel burn. Thx.

 

[O C Diver]

If the Cherubini works for you, consider the older cousin. Before Cherubini started building them, Hans Christian built 18 of them with supposedly the same molds. There were a few built with twins, but mostly singles. Below is a link to one on Yachtworld.com and there is a second one still showing but under contract that has twins.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/19...ependence-3530276/?refSource=standard listing

Ted

 

[moparharn]

Thanks Ted

I really dig those Independence trawlers. The one with a single Merlin is beautiful, but those motors have a horrible reputation. In my modest experience it is too much horsepower from that design. The owner of Merlin/ Daytona takes quite a beating online as well. The Cherubini in Ohio was fresh water, twin Cummins, low hours, and a blue hull. $299,000. It sold quickly. If possible I think I would prefer a Lehman or Cummins. Obviously Deere, Perkins, and Lugger in lower horsepower would great as well. I am going to have to sort out the trade offs and determine what might work for me. No rush at this point as I need to sell the Bertram first. I expect to buy a more modest boat to start and then move up in 3-5 years. Thank you again everyone for your solid advice. Bill

 

[ben2go]

I really dig those Independence trawlers. The one with a single Merlin is beautiful, but those motors have a horrible reputation. In my modest experience it is too much horsepower from that design. The owner of Merlin/ Daytona takes quite a beating online as well. The Cherubini in Ohio was fresh water, twin Cummins, low hours, and a blue hull. $299,000. It sold quickly. If possible I think I would prefer a Lehman or Cummins. Obviously Deere, Perkins, and Lugger in lower horsepower would great as well. I am going to have to sort out the trade offs and determine what might work for me. No rush at this point as I need to sell the Bertram first. I expect to buy a more modest boat to start and then move up in 3-5 years. Thank you again everyone for your solid advice. Bill

Do you have your Bertram listed here? When I was young, I was interested in their 30-ish foot sport fisher.

 

[OldDan1943]

If the Cherubini works for you, consider the older cousin. Before Cherubini started building them, Hans Christian built 18 of them with supposedly the same molds. There were a few built with twins, but mostly singles. Below is a link to one on Yachtworld.com and there is a second one still showing but under contract that has twins.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/19...ependence-3530276/?refSource=standard listing

Ted

I'd like to believe the listing is only a brief listing.
20 gal holding tank for 2 heads? No mention of a method f pumping the sanitary overboard.
Perhaps the engine is too large, I do not know.
I do know, just because you have lots of HP does not mean you have to use it.

I do like the boat!!!

 

[moparharn]

Yes. The Bertram 35 is listed here

There is an ad on Craigslist that I put a link to in the post. I posted as for sale or trawler trade. Bertram 35 1976. It is a rare find in this condition. Bill

 

[O C Diver]

I really dig those Independence trawlers. The one with a single Merlin is beautiful, but those motors have a horrible reputation. In my modest experience it is too much horsepower from that design. The owner of Merlin/ Daytona takes quite a beating online as well. The Cherubini in Ohio was fresh water, twin Cummins, low hours, and a blue hull. $299,000. It sold quickly. If possible I think I would prefer a Lehman or Cummins. Obviously Deere, Perkins, and Lugger in lower horsepower would great as well. I am going to have to sort out the trade offs and determine what might work for me. No rush at this point as I need to sell the Bertram first. I expect to buy a more modest boat to start and then move up in 3-5 years. Thank you again everyone for your solid advice. Bill

I wasn't recommending that one specifically, more that there are 18 Independence by another manufacturer. Personally, I would want one of the Hans Christian with the single Lehman. As to the HP in that particular one, mine came with the Cummins 6CTA 450 HP. Supposedly it would plane at 14 knots at 21 GPH, ouch. They were probably trying to mimic that with the Merlin. Mine had less than 1,000 hours and I was basically able to swap it for a John Deere 4045TFM75 135 HP. Cutting the speed in half (14 to 7 knots) reduced fuel consumption by 90% (21 to 2 GPH).

Anyway thought it could be a model to add to your search list.

Ted

 

[fgarriso]

On your questions I have some feedback that may or not help you.

We are loop veterans. our goal was not to rush things so we took two years to complete..

On the boat we set some requirements.

Your going to be living in it for a year or two so find a boat that you live in.
My wife said two heads with two staterooms.
Also a large galley with full size home style appliances.
Also you need some room to spread out. No matter how well you get along you still cant be sitting two feet apart forever.

I wanted a large ships style pilothouse with heat and AC, and a watch berth.
Our boat is a 50 footer with 17' beam and 6' draft with 17' air draft (no flybridge). We did find that 50' was an issue at some marinas as was the 17' beam.
Unless you can afford to stay at marinas every night (east coast is 2-3 dollars a foot) your going to be on the hook half the time. The boat has to be setup for living on the hook. Good heavy anchors on bow and stern, you don't want to swing out at night in a river channel. A large and very good inverter about 4kw, and a big bank of 8D batteries. A diesel generator about 8-12 KW will run the AC and an all electric galley. A small night generator of 2-3 KW would be good.
You also need a backup battery for the pilothouse to run the electronics.

Now about the boat, 17' air draft is good and you won't have any problems. Just remember to put down your SSB, VHF, and AIS antennas when needed under bridges. 6' of draft is tight in same areas. We grounded several times. That's where twin engines come in handy. I would recommend 5' draft for anyone else. Don't forget a full set of spare parts for EVERYTHING.
A shallow draft of 5' will not ride as well in the gulf, and don't let anyone fool you into thinking the gulf is easy. You could have flat seas in the morning, and 8 footers in the afternoon with wind changing directions. Any way you do it you will have to take at least one overnight run to cross the gulf. If the weather forecast says 2-3 footers it could mean 4-6'. The east side of the gulf is very shallow ten miles out. To be safe you need to run in 40-50' of water.
Also on the ICW the markers are sometimes out of location or just missing. Some people run too close to them, and hit them. Make sure your charts are up to date every month.
We settled down to an easy 50 miles a day most of the time. If (when) you get bad weather just drop the hook and call it a day. DO NOT try to run marker to marker with your radar, remember that markers may not be correct. Also running at 6 knots in the pitch black with 30 knots of wind, and raining sideways is stressful!
Get cell phones that you can turn into hotspots for email, looking up marinas, and ordering parts. Verizon or AT&T have good coverage and unlimited data plans. Get a new laptop with built in 802.11 wireless.
I am not a big believer in autopilot for the ICW and rivers. Nothing runs straight on them. For the great lakes and gulf you could use one. If you do run on autopilot make sure you have you radar and AIS alarms set to at least 10 miles. Someone MUST be at the helm at all times. You wouldn't believe how many collisions have occurred because the operator went to the head or made a sandwich.
I think you said you live in Detroit, if so take your boat out on lake Erie in bad weather to make sure you can handle the boat, and you and you wife can take the weather and seas.
OH I almost forgot you MUST have a good dingy. We have a Boston Whaler, but any good size inflatable will work an outboard motor. Don't forget the davit to get it on and off the boat easily.

Make sure your wife can operate the boat if you fall off or get sick. Also have a MOB plan and do a few test runs to make sure everything works. Invest in a good EPERB system. The automatic inflatable PFDs work best, but you have to wear them anytime someone goes on deck. Both of you need to practice docking and handling the boat in close quarters.

Get a USCG Safety Inspection and have them check and test Everything. It could save you life or your boat.

Unless you want to hire me and an engineer as fulltime crew

 

[psneeld]

A lot of great info....


But my experience tells me there are few musts or absolutes in boating.

 

[OldDan1943]

On your questions I have some feedback that may or not help you.

Unless you want to hire me and an engineer as fulltime crew

If you can fold up and sleep in a drawer, don't eat much, likes to cook and dont want to get paid, we might be able to work out a deal.

 

[fgarriso]

A lot of great info....


But my experience tells me there are few musts or absolutes in boating.

No their are several, and that is just a start.

 

[psneeld]

No their are several, and that is just a start.

There are NOT necessarily some "musts", especially some I have recently read and I can defend them with plenty of experience.


But I will suggest anyone who reads "musts" in anyone's post do plenty of research before they follow those "musts".

 

[moparharn]

A ton of helpful info thanks fgarriso

Practice makes perfect. MOB drills are a great idea. My wife MUST know what I know and be able to do what can do with the boat. We were out today here on Lake St. Clair. My 100 pound nine month old shepherd wanted to swim. Getting him on the platform from the cockpit was difficult. Getting him back on the platform from the water was nearly impossible. Any boat I get MUST have good water access for the dog and MOB. Transom door and spacious platform are a must. I will engineer a water ramp for the dog. I was too opinionated when I expressed concern with the Ford Merlin in the Cherubini. My apologies. The Cherubini is too much of a reach at this point and so is the Hans Christian. If things go my way they might come into the realm of possibilities. I will double down on my prayers. It all begins with a sale of the Bertram. ??

 

[Bigsfish]

A lot of great info....


But my experience tells me there are few musts or absolutes in boating.

Or in life. My dad taught to forget the words always and never.

 

[ranger58sb]

My 100 pound nine month old shepherd wanted to swim. Getting him on the platform from the cockpit was difficult. Getting him back on the platform from the water was nearly impossible. Any boat I get MUST have good water access for the dog and MOB. Transom door and spacious platform are a must. I will engineer a water ramp for the dog.

We had some luck with the doggie PFDs that wrap completely around the chest and have "handles" -- for some of our DOB (dog-overboard) drills with various flavors of Golden Receiver and a Pretty Good Pyrenees...

It's also possible to reinforce lift capability with a line through those handles; one person hauling on handles, one person hauling on line...

-Chris

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: I keep reading about marina issues at 50' or 17' beam and various other sizes and if that's the case, you did a lousy job of planning. There are more than enough marinas in every area that can handle more. Plan your stops and research in advance. If you just decide to show up at whatever marina, yes you'll have problems. However, we did the loop at 69'4" and fewer than five nights were anchored. Research and contact marinas to see the fit for your boat and communicate with them in advance along the way. No, we didn't get put at gas docks either.

It's the same as comments about 6' draft and then saying 5' draft won't handle the Gulf as well. That's just true only in an absolute world of two otherwise identical boats but not in the real world where every boat is different and draft is just one small part of it. We've crossed the Gulf dozens of times in various boats with 5' drafts and in calm and rough conditions.

I'm strongly in agreement with Pfneeld's and Bigfish's "No Absolutes." We're talking good, better, best and talking personal preference and style of boating. No two people do the loop the same. OCDiver and we went to Lake Superior while most don't. Read all the loop experiences you can and from your reading take what applies to you. Smaller is better? Well not if you have 6-8 people aboard. Slow or fast is better? All depends. 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, all make sense. We prefer one season on the Great Lakes and then repeat a few years later. I read a family that did the loop on a shallow draft Catamaran. They didn't have all the warned about marina problems and they sure took advantage of their shallow draft to go places many can't. But they swore that their boat is the only right choice. Capt John is a proponent of sail boats without the sales because they're so fuel efficient. Well, so are rowboats, but not for me.

It's like finding boats to start with. There is no best boat or best type of boat or best way to do the loop. The challenge is finding what is best for you and it's not by just accepting someone else's "best way to do it."

 

[moparharn]

Much thanks

I really appreciate the help that has been offered to me. It is going to be fun to prepare for our future. Sometimes we talk in absolutes as away of expressing a strong preference. I think the general guidelines are what I will use to taylor my options based on my needs. My choices for the boat will be heavily influenced by my size and mobility. The water access is going to be a driver because I love to swim and I love my dog. Fuel efficiency and dependability will be a driver. Speed will not. Ease of getting onboard and around the boat both inside and outside will be important. A comfortable bed is a must- oops there I go again. Lack of sleep will destroy the dream/journey. I think I would like a covered back deck- negotiable. Comfortable chair and a tv like home- negotiable. A clean, organized and spacious engine room- a must. Sorry again. So many beautiful boats to look at. So far the Cherubini/Hans Christian seem to really strike a chord with me. That Sparkman Stevens in the classified here is incredible as well, but possibly too big? If my boat sells I might make a trip to see that boat if it is still available. It would be at minimum a great learning experience. Maybe one question I should ask- should I be thinking about how easily the engine or engines could be rebuilt? Is it the type that is rebuilt in place or requires removal? How do you remove it? Maybe I worry too much, but some projects are MUCH easier than others. Kudos to any of you who made the trip into Lake Superior. It is a magical place, albeit colder and more perilous in my opinion. I kayak LS and pick my days carefully. Bill

 

[O C Diver]

Maybe one question I should ask- should I be thinking about how easily the engine or engines could be rebuilt? Is it the type that is rebuilt in place or requires removal? How do you remove it? Maybe I worry too much, but some projects are MUCH easier than others. Kudos to any of you who made the trip into Lake Superior. It is a magical place, albeit colder and more perilous in my opinion. I kayak LS and pick my days carefully. Bill

Do you plan to own the boat after doung the Loop?

Kayaking around the Apostle Islands and the Sea caves on the South shore was wonderful.

Ted

 

[moparharn]

I would hope to keep the boat, but I have never kept anything sooooooo maybe? I suppose if the boat was really a great one then it would stay with us. My concern is if I get to be the lucky owner who has an engine failure.
The Apostles are quite special, and so is pictured rocks. The water can get big and there are fewer harbors than most Great Lakes alternatives. Bill