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Old 10-07-2016, 10:22 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
Why would it be unethical? The broker is the sellers agent. Whether the buyer talks to the broker or the seller, he talks to the seller.
Because here the idea is that the listing broker is the seller's representative and as such he is paid to insulate if need be the seller from the rabble.
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:48 PM   #42
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Because here the idea is that the listing broker is the seller's representative and as such he is paid to insulate if need be the seller from the rabble.
Isn`t the real concern is commercial. If the seller declines direct contact he can say so, and or he refer the enquirer to the broker. Ethics doesn`t come into it.
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:04 AM   #43
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Here's a question... is there a brokers code of ethics, like in real estate?
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:36 AM   #44
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The bottom line is that a good buyer's broker who wants to preserve his very important reputation will actually represent the buyer. Word of crappy brokers is freely spread around the dock.
In this regard, I want to say that we used the OP as a buyer's broker and would again. He's one of the good guys. We got a lot of excellent advice, even for someone who spent a career designing commercial power vessels. We wouldn't have a twin screw vessel today if not for the discussion I had with him and, now, I would never want to go back.

The arrangement works very well when it works. Broker to broker, the buyer's broker may find out more than a seller calling directly. However, that doesn't protect you from the listing broker giving yours bad information. We made a $1500 week long round trip on a wild goose chase and saw another boat the OP had been lied to about on the return.

Where the system breaks down is where it becomes a chain of communication and things can get lost in translation. It can also introduce time delays. We got into a boat purchase from the twilight zone. If I hadn't been there personally on the spot through the weirdness, I doubt that the deal would have happened.

I'm sorry that the OP ended up not getting anything from our deal. We were driving back looking at other listings on a laptop while he was aboard his boat riding out a tropical storm when we discovered the great deal we got on our boat. I doubt thought that he would have wanted to deal with the craziness we did for half of the 5% commission that broker was charging. The broker said they would have dumped the seller if we hadn't already invested so much in travel and hotels. Even doing my own survey, we spent over three grand buying this boat.
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:54 AM   #45
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This whole idea of a test ride without an escrow deposit never made any sense to me.There are many factors that go into deciding whether the boat meets my need, or requirements. Things like noise levels when the engines are under load , or how the boat reacts in a beam sea, etc. Once you get past the eye candy that brought you to that boat in the first place , it is time to get down to the nuts and bolts. The problem I see here is that the brokers/dealers (don't/can't) stock boats like car dealers can, making a test drive impossible. It is just tough to expect a potential buyer to plop down many boat bucks , only to find that the boats performance doesn't meet his expectations.
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Old 10-08-2016, 07:59 AM   #46
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Can my ' buyer's broker ' contact the seller directly, if the listing broker is not communicating, or trying to be difficult?
In my case my buyer broker contacted the seller - after some researching - before contacting the selling broker. The boat had been on the market for some tome and had changed brokers during that time. The purpose was to see if the seller was pleased w the selling broker and would prefer dealing direct or through the selling broker.
Bottom line seller was happy w current listing broker and they worked w each other to make the deal and closing smooth. The listing broker wekcomed a buyers broker and was glad to share commission to make the sale.
Highly recommend a buyer broker.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:43 AM   #47
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I still come back to the cost issue. Its nothing personal against brokers, but having spent a couple decades in an industry that does tens of billions in brokered transactions, there is a cost. Entities that sell products through brokers have products that cost more than entities that sell the equivalent product that do not. There is no way around that.

The question becomes, are you as the buyer (because you are ultimately paying) willing to pay the extra ~10% in cost to have an intermediary for both sides?

Many people here will say yes and do pay. I get it. On average, its not for me. Brokers are not, on average in the long run, going to be more educated or savvy than I am to such a degree that I feel its worth it.

Telsa, Geico, E-Trade, Vanguard all have and will continue to disrupt the brokered world. Yacht business won't be left alone forever...
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by kev_rm View Post
I still come back to the cost issue. Its nothing personal against brokers, but having spent a couple decades in an industry that does tens of billions in brokered transactions, there is a cost. Entities that sell products through brokers have products that cost more than entities that sell the equivalent product that do not. There is no way around that.

The question becomes, are you as the buyer (because you are ultimately paying) willing to pay the extra ~10% in cost to have an intermediary for both sides?

Many people here will say yes and do pay. I get it. On average, its not for me. Brokers are not, on average in the long run, going to be more educated or savvy than I am to such a degree that I feel its worth it.

Telsa, Geico, E-Trade, Vanguard all have and will continue to disrupt the brokered world. Yacht business won't be left alone forever...
I don't see the problem - the service & cost is voluntary - if you can do the job on your own you are free to DIY sale. I don't see it as more educated I see it as having the exposure / network where buyers go looking.
Having a buyers broker isn't an addn'l 10% - it's sharing the basic 10% brokers commission - I would prefer to have someone on my side vs dealing solely w/ a listing / sellers broker
Craigslist is free but doesn't quite have the exposure that YachtWorld has for boat shopping.
That said I have sold 2 boats on my own or w/ help of Craigslist but they were a much different $ amount and size than the average shopper using YW
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Old 10-08-2016, 04:47 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by kev_rm View Post
I still come back to the cost issue. Its nothing personal against brokers, but having spent a couple decades in an industry that does tens of billions in brokered transactions, there is a cost. Entities that sell products through brokers have products that cost more than entities that sell the equivalent product that do not. There is no way around that.

The question becomes, are you as the buyer (because you are ultimately paying) willing to pay the extra ~10% in cost to have an intermediary for both sides?

Many people here will say yes and do pay. I get it. On average, its not for me. Brokers are not, on average in the long run, going to be more educated or savvy than I am to such a degree that I feel its worth it.

Telsa, Geico, E-Trade, Vanguard all have and will continue to disrupt the brokered world. Yacht business won't be left alone forever...
Houses and boats don't sell without brokers. By that I'm saying boats above a certain size and price. Individuals just don't have the access and means of reaching each other. Yes, FSBO saves money. However, it's a minuscule part of the house market.

We drove up one day and saw a for sale sign in the yard of the house next door to us. They owner had been in the hospital and then nursing home but was always assumed to be returning in spite of her age. Her kids were not local. It turned out she went into assisted living and the daughter picked up the phone and called her friend who was a real estate agent. We called and made an offer and bought it that day. It was next door and we had no way of knowing until the sign went up. We had never met the kids until we met the daughter after the sale. We did meet the mother and all seemed normal until the ambulance came to pick her up. We didn't even know how to check on her after that. One of our family members even went to the hospital hoping to see family. Saw none and the mother was on an immediate family only list. Oh, we did use our real estate agent to make the call so at least she got half the commission. She's kind enough to point out what we just bought her. Just humor, as she's a very close friend.
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:58 PM   #50
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I don't see the problem
The problem is that it was presented as no or opaque cost to the buyer, that's all.
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:02 PM   #51
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Houses and boats don't sell without brokers.
They absolutely can and will. Ergo Redfin and a million other sub $1000 MLS services. Direct is the future, I believe.
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:08 PM   #52
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They absolutely can and will. Ergo Redfin and a million other sub $1000 MLS services. Direct is the future, I believe.
I've heard that a long time and haven't seen it yet. We'll see.
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:42 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by kev_rm View Post

The problem is that it was presented as no or opaque cost to the buyer, that's all.
Maybe better stated no additional cost.


If a listing broker is in the deal the 10% commission is already included.
If no listing broker and seller is approached by a buyers broker they are free to decline or negotiate...
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Old 10-08-2016, 07:25 PM   #54
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This whole idea of a test ride without an escrow deposit never made any sense to me.There are many factors that go into deciding whether the boat meets my need, or requirements. Things like noise levels when the engines are under load , or how the boat reacts in a beam sea, etc. Once you get past the eye candy that brought you to that boat in the first place , it is time to get down to the nuts and bolts. The problem I see here is that the brokers/dealers (don't/can't) stock boats like car dealers can, making a test drive impossible. It is just tough to expect a potential buyer to plop down many boat bucks , only to find that the boats performance doesn't meet his expectations.
It is a problem. When I first read your post I thought "a" in the first line was a typo for "no", but the rest clarifies. Even so, you spend a lot of $, unless you know the characteristics of each boat you consider, it is a kind of crap shoot without a test ride.
I think FSBO sellers are more likely to provide a test run, probably because they can and are nearby. A distant broker could delegate that to the owner.
With my boat we had a test run not associated with the survey, broker present, and one engine overheated. The purchase went on hold while the son(executor) of the deceased owner fixed that, before I would go to survey.
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Old 10-08-2016, 08:41 PM   #55
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I don't know how this thread got this far from my original post but please indulge me in clarifying this concept of seatrials and deposits.

A deposit is placed on a boat to hold it it from being sold to another buyer as the deposit placer does his due diligence. The deposit is fully refundable and does not force the buyer to purchase the boat. The contract on the boat included with the deposit can include any terms agreed to by the buyer and seller. If the buyer wants to "test ride" the boat prior to the expense of a survey and the seller agrees than that can be done.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:00 PM   #56
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In this regard, I want to say that we used the OP as a buyer's broker and would again. He's one of the good guys. We got a lot of excellent advice, even for someone who spent a career designing commercial power vessels. We wouldn't have a twin screw vessel today if not for the discussion I had with him and, now, I would never want to go back.

The arrangement works very well when it works. Broker to broker, the buyer's broker may find out more than a seller calling directly. However, that doesn't protect you from the listing broker giving yours bad information. We made a $1500 week long round trip on a wild goose chase and saw another boat the OP had been lied to about on the return.

Where the system breaks down is where it becomes a chain of communication and things can get lost in translation. It can also introduce time delays. We got into a boat purchase from the twilight zone. If I hadn't been there personally on the spot through the weirdness, I doubt that the deal would have happened.

I'm sorry that the OP ended up not getting anything from our deal. We were driving back looking at other listings on a laptop while he was aboard his boat riding out a tropical storm when we discovered the great deal we got on our boat. I doubt thought that he would have wanted to deal with the craziness we did for half of the 5% commission that broker was charging. The broker said they would have dumped the seller if we hadn't already invested so much in travel and hotels. Even doing my own survey, we spent over three grand buying this boat.
Roger,
Thank you for your kind words and thoughts. This illustrates in a way part of my thoughts. As our other purchase fell apart and you were driving and I was fighting a storm, we both located your next boat. You contacted them shortly before I sent you the listing. I made nothing in the short term but you got the boat that was right for you and someday it will serve me that I served you. Anybody who lives their life or does their job thinking in the long term and serves their client's best interest will be rewarded in the end. A good buyer's broker will know this and is one of the only times in life when you get something for nothing ie. the seller's commission paid for your partner (buyer's broker).
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:38 PM   #57
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This whole idea of a test ride without an escrow deposit never made any sense to me.There are many factors that go into deciding whether the boat meets my need, or requirements. Things like noise levels when the engines are under load , or how the boat reacts in a beam sea, etc. Once you get past the eye candy that brought you to that boat in the first place , it is time to get down to the nuts and bolts. The problem I see here is that the brokers/dealers (don't/can't) stock boats like car dealers can, making a test drive impossible. It is just tough to expect a potential buyer to plop down many boat bucks , only to find that the boats performance doesn't meet his expectations.
This summer my wife and I were home (PNW), while there we were trying to check out a vessel that was at that time was #1 on out list. when we finally got a hold of the broker, he said that he did not have time to show us the boat, but that the owner was there and would be glad to show it to us. After the tour of the boat the owner told us that he was taking a friend out for a ride the following Saturday and invited us to go along. When we got home, we got a call from the broker telling us that we could not go for a ride on that boat with out a signed contract. We asked why, because we had been invited by the owner, the broker told us that he would not allow it. We called the owner to get his call the the broker, he said that he was going to go along with the brokers call, I said that was to bad, because he had a nice boat, and an A$$ for a broker. We droped that boat off our list.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:59 PM   #58
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Unfortunately you might never know if the broker was being a PITA or if he was covering for a seller who wasn't honest with you. There is no magic solution other than what many others here have said, deal with someone you trust. Often having your own "guy" is the way if the listing broker doesn't know how to walk the difficult line of representing both parties. This thread wasn't intended to discuss that issue.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:28 PM   #59
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I don't know how this thread got this far from my original post but please indulge me in clarifying this concept of seatrials and deposits.

A deposit is placed on a boat to hold it it from being sold to another buyer as the deposit placer does his due diligence. The deposit is fully refundable and does not force the buyer to purchase the boat. The contract on the boat included with the deposit can include any terms agreed to by the buyer and seller. If the buyer wants to "test ride" the boat prior to the expense of a survey and the seller agrees than that can be done.
This points again to the topic of this thread which is one we requested as selection of a buyer's broker. It has to be someone who ultimately will hold a deposit and protect you in that regard.
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:32 AM   #60
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Houses and boats don't sell without brokers. By that I'm saying boats above a certain size and price. Individuals just don't have the access and means of reaching each other. Yes, FSBO saves money. However, it's a minuscule part of the house market.

We drove up one day and saw a for sale sign in the yard of the house next door to us. They owner had been in the hospital and then nursing home but was always assumed to be returning in spite of her age. Her kids were not local. It turned out she went into assisted living and the daughter picked up the phone and called her friend who was a real estate agent. We called and made an offer and bought it that day. It was next door and we had no way of knowing until the sign went up. We had never met the kids until we met the daughter after the sale. We did meet the mother and all seemed normal until the ambulance came to pick her up. We didn't even know how to check on her after that. One of our family members even went to the hospital hoping to see family. Saw none and the mother was on an immediate family only list. Oh, we did use our real estate agent to make the call so at least she got half the commission. She's kind enough to point out what we just bought her. Just humor, as she's a very close friend.
Band,

Tons of boats and houses are sold without brokers, but perhaps not the majority of them. There's a huge advantage in dealing right with the seller (and some advantages not).

I've bought and sold many without a broker, and often did my own closings. Not for everyone, but worth a thought, and often works better. There's a big advantage in developing a relationship with the seller.
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