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02-11-2017, 09:10 AM
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#41
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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Most boats it does not matter. Most alternators do not care if field is energized on coastdown. Stop it any way you like.
I wired my personal boat engine a little differently. I don't really like start and stop buttons. They require additional motions to get the action desired. Sounds minor, but if you get a stall, it is nice to roll starter quickly.
So I wired mine up with a key switch like a car. Off-On-Start. Only one motion of the hand needed to start or stop. Want to avoid anyone starting engine, key in pocket. Did the same with gennie.
Wired alt so regulator is energized by an oil pressure switch. I think a bunch of Lehmans are similar.
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02-11-2017, 10:01 AM
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#42
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Senior Member
City: Baltimore, MD
Vessel Name: Starshine
Vessel Model: 1989 Bayliner 3288
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus
The Alt would be my concern as well. Wouldn't cutting ignition switch cut 12v sensing and the Alt districts...Similar to turning off the batty SW when running...
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No, when turning the battery switch off the alternator field is still energized. The alternator is still trying to produce electric with no place for it to go.
On many boats the key switch energizes the field current in the alternator when it is in the on position. When the key is turned to off the alternator stops producing power weather the engine is running or not.
As mentioned in another post other boats are set up where the field current is controlled by an oil pressure switch and the position of the key switch has no bearing.
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02-11-2017, 10:05 AM
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#43
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Senior Member
City: Portland, OR
Vessel Name: Cool Water
Vessel Model: C&L Puget Trawler
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays
I am with Fog, I kill the engine with the kill switch and then turn off the ignition.
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What these folks are saying. I do the same thing with Deere, Masey, and International tractors on our place. More than one Mechanics has told me this is the recommended way to shut off a diesel.
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02-11-2017, 10:20 AM
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#44
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC
So I wired mine up with a key switch like a car. Off-On-Start. Only one motion of the hand needed to start or stop. Want to avoid anyone starting engine, key in pocket. Did the same with gennie.
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I am interested in this. Did you eliminate the kill switch as well or just the start switch?
It would be nice to get rid of the start button but I would still want the kill switch.
Sad to say, but I occasionally will push the wrong button. Not a problem if I hit the kill switch when the engine is off, but not good if I hit the start button while the engine is running.
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02-11-2017, 10:27 AM
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#45
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TF Site Team
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrupp
No, when turning the battery switch off the alternator field is still energized. The alternator is still trying to produce electric with no place for it to go.
On many boats the key switch energizes the field current in the alternator when it is in the on position. When the key is turned to off the alternator stops producing power weather the engine is running or not.
As mentioned in another post other boats are set up where the field current is controlled by an oil pressure switch and the position of the key switch has no bearing.
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That makes sense...Thanks for clarifing
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
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02-11-2017, 11:01 AM
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#46
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Guru
City: Cape May, NJ
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menzies
Are you sure that they meant after you start. My manual says the following, so I would double check that.
Starting
1. Put the gear control in the neutral position.
2. Move the throttle control to the full speed position and return back to idle.
3. Turn the key switch to the first position. Check the voltage meter to see the condition of the batteries. For starting, the voltmeter should not read below 12 volts (24 volts for 24 volt systems).
4. Turn the key to the starting position and as soon as the engine starts, release the key. Move the throttle up until the engine is running at approximately 1000 RPM.
5. Do not crank the starter for more than 15 seconds consecutively. If the engine fails to start with the first attempt, be sure that the starter has stopped completely before re-engaging
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Nope, here it is verbatim:
Starting the engine.
Engine controls and instruments will vary according to each individual boat builders preference but, in general, the following instructions are applicable to all Perkins marine engines installed in boats manufactured in North America.
1. Place the gearbox in neutral position. (Borg Warner transmissions have neutral safety switches... (snip))
2. Place the engine speed control at the maximum *speed position.
3. Press the start button or turn the key in the clockwise direction - release as soon as the engine starts. If the engine fails to run, ensure that the starter pinion and engine have stopped rotating before re-engaging the starter motor. Otherwise the flywheel ring and starter pinion could be damaged.
4. Place the engine speed control at the position of desired engine rpm.
* For TV8.510 (M) engines, place the engine speed control at one-quarter (1/4) of maximum speed if the engine or weather is warm or at the maximum speed position, if cold.
__________________
Archie
Irish Lady
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Cape May, NJ
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02-11-2017, 11:40 AM
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#47
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays
I am interested in this. Did you eliminate the kill switch as well or just the start switch?
It would be nice to get rid of the start button but I would still want the kill switch.
Sad to say, but I occasionally will push the wrong button. Not a problem if I hit the kill switch when the engine is off, but not good if I hit the start button while the engine is running.
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On my Cummins, the fuel solenoid is energize to run, so when you turn the key off it stops.
This runs counter to my preference in that if I lose all electric, the engine will shut down. But I am ok with it as if I start losing voltage it is easy to put a zip tie on the solenoid. Should have plenty of time to do that.
If you have two helms, the key gets complicated. In those cases, start and stop buttons can be more practical.
I have two helms, but upper is primitive with no start/stop. Not real happy about that, may modify it. I rarely run from up there.
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02-11-2017, 04:08 PM
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#48
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Guru
City: Brookline, NH
Vessel Name: Shalloway
Vessel Model: Defever 44, twin Perkins
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,260
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The key switch for my Lehmans only energizes the engine instruments and the circuits for the Start/Stop buttons. Since they're completely mechanical and no "run" solenoid, no power is required for running. If I shut the key switch off I can't stop the engines with the stop button (which goes to the stop solenoid).
Alternator fields are engergized by an oil pressure switch.
BTW - my Lehman manual says to use 1/4 throttle but I have seen some versions of the Lehman manual that said to use full throttle. I have a problem with high RPM before oil pressure is established. I don't use any throttle and the engines always start instantly.
Ken
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02-11-2017, 04:24 PM
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#49
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Master and Commander
City: Vallejo CA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,559
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Not sure what engine manufacturers mean by terms such as "half" throttle. JD says to start my 4045, set throttle to one third. Does that mean moving the throttle handle one-third of the way between upper and lower limits? If one-third meant to run at one-third of maximum RPM, that would be idle speed. (750 RPM). Regardless, I set the throttle for cold-start starting to result in 1100-1200 RPM (is that half-throttle?), and turn throttle setting to idle once the engine settles.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
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02-11-2017, 04:29 PM
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#50
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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I start LOTS of marine diesels. Always check throttle at dead idle prior to cranking. Only mess with throttle when very cold or airbound or otherwise being hard starting.
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02-11-2017, 06:46 PM
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#51
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TF Site Team
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC
I start LOTS of marine diesels. Always check throttle at dead idle prior to cranking. Only mess with throttle when very cold or airbound or otherwise being hard starting.
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__________________
Keith
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02-11-2017, 06:55 PM
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#52
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Guru
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC
I start LOTS of marine diesels. Always check throttle at dead idle prior to cranking. Only mess with throttle when very cold or airbound or otherwise being hard starting.
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Interesting comment on being airbound.
I have a manual fuel prime pump on my Luggers, are there people here who do not have a way of clearing out trapped air other than cranking?
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02-11-2017, 07:49 PM
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#53
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
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Some motors self bleed. My Cat 3208s did and my Westerbeke genset does.
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02-11-2017, 07:50 PM
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#54
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Guru
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
Some motors self bleed. My Cat 3208s did and my Westerbeke genset does.
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Self bleed by letting them sit for a while if you get air in there from a filter change or running out fuel - or self bleed through cranking?
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02-11-2017, 08:45 PM
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#55
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Guru
City: Miami
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 800
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Turning Off Your Diesel Engine
We have electronic Luggers with electronic twin disk transmissions. Our key switch energizes four control stations as well as our electronic transmissions. Key off, engine off, transmissions off,and no stations are active. Key on, transmissions on, and all stations start stop buttons are active. Transmission has a neutral safety switch and can't start in gear regardless of which station is used to start. Pilot house has the only keys and no shut down switches. Other stations all have start and stop buttons. Lots of variables depending on specific equipment and owners desires.
__________________
Via iOS.
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02-11-2017, 10:40 PM
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#56
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menzies
Interesting comment on being airbound.
I have a manual fuel prime pump on my Luggers, are there people here who do not have a way of clearing out trapped air other than cranking?
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My Cummins pressurizes the fuel line when the key is turned on. iIRC, Cummins says turning the key on for 30s, turning the key off, then repeating a few times to pump fuel through the filters after a change.
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02-12-2017, 02:02 AM
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#57
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Senior Member
City: G
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 156
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With a simple mechanical governor & the speed control lever in tick over position before cranking the fuel pump is already in the max fuel delivery condition....because the engine speed is below the demand speed....so touching the speed control lever while cranking doesn't do anything.
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02-12-2017, 05:36 AM
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#58
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,329
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My Onan MDKD self bleeds. After changing fuel filters I opened what I hoped was the bleed screw,hit the starter, fuel came out and the engine started. Closed the bleed screw, cleaned up, job done.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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02-12-2017, 05:43 AM
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#59
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Senior Member
City: G
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 156
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If you opened a vent that isnt "self bleeding" !!
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02-12-2017, 06:44 AM
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#60
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Guru
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 22,553
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"Is it only the Alt output that is a concern re shutting off while running?
I thought there is also a concern for breaking the external sensing / excite wire to the Alt also?"
A proper rotary switch is break before break to kill the field before disconnecting the batt.
Turning off the field is the correct method of turning off an operating alt.
The auto style "one Wire" alt does not have this option .
A second reason to install a remote 3 -4 stage V regulator which is superior for charging house batts
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