True displacement models

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Someone (preferably a naval architect ), please correct me if I'm wrong. I've read on this thread people claiming to have full displacement boat with a hard chine and shallow draft. I'm not disputing them, just trying to gain a better understanding of vessel design so I don't keep appearing ignorant forever. My understanding was full displacement hull has a rounded belly. As for shallow draft, how do you define that? As a draft less than a specified amount, or as a draft of x feet per y feet of length? I ask this because I've always been under the assumption that full displacement hulls tended to deeper drafts (sp. draughts). I'd rather appear ignorant once but be corrected than sound a fool every time I tried to speak on the subject.

A true FD boat will have it's transom out of the water like an older sailboat. FD dosn't drag the transom along below the WL. That is the easiest way for quick identification. Lots of FD hulls will fudge a bit gaining a tad bit of speed with the bottom of the transom 2 or 3" submerged. Because of optics it's hard to see if a boat has 2" submerged or 6".
There's no B&W cutoff point but most boats do fit a type. As boats go from FD through SD to planing you'll see flatter bottoms aft and less and less weight. Lots of FD boats have a flat bottom crossways but a slight curve fore and aft. Like a dory. A canoe is a FD boat and very shallow draft. They have rounded chines but flat bottoms. Same for lobster boats and they have a straight run aft. The straight run aft (and submerged transom) takes them out of the FD type.
I'm not a NA and I haven't seen our usual TF NA resident lately.
 
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My GulfStar 36 is FD. With twin Lehman 80hp is just right.
 
We did the Loop this year in a GH47 (138 miles to complete for the gold burgee). We enjoy the fuel economy, the comfortable living and the shallow draft. We are glad we did not have a flybridge - this allowed us to cruise downtown Chicago bridges and the Lake Champlain canal bridges (last year). We traveled with a GH37 this year and both boats had a great time. We love the raised pilot house.


Nice boat!

Do you mean air draft -- with the flybridge version -- would be a showstopper for someone considering the Loop?

-Chris
 
Nice boat!

Do you mean air draft -- with the flybridge version -- would be a showstopper for someone considering the Loop?

-Chris

Fly bridge not needed if you use some of that money to install a wireless Yacht controller unit. Have used one single handing my boat for a few years now makes docking and tight maneuvering a piece of cake. Lets you be where the action is and then you can step off and do lines while boat is still under your control. Cat's meow
 
As you guys have found, it's impossible to define any hull as planing, semi-displacement, or full displacement just by it's shape, there are far too many variations possible.

Naval Architects definitions of these hull types are centred around, A) intended (design) operating speed relative to length or displacement (Froude number). And B) The amount of Hydrodynamic and Hydrostatic pressure supporting the hull under way.

I'll add to this in a bit.
 
N-37 Flybridge or not

Nice boat!

Do you mean air draft -- with the flybridge version -- would be a showstopper for someone considering the Loop?

-Chris

Hi all, it's been awhile since on the forum. As an 2007 flybridge N-37 owner and cruiser with 40,000 miles under the keel including three great loops and most of the western Rivers this is an interesting thread that is close to my heart. We were full time live aboards for most of that time but now have a dirt home in New Bern to winter in as we've been captured by our grandchildren in Raleigh, NC.
These are my opinions and experience.
A full displacement vessel moves through the water as opposed to on top or partially ontop of the water. It generally has a full shape and weight that precludes moving it thru the water any faster then the point at which it begins to they an climb it's bow wave.
At my 7knt cruise, my N-37 is level and runs very well at 7 knots generating almost no wake (the best metric for cruising as a displacement vessel). Getting me an overall fuel burn of approximately 2.3 gals per hour including the generator and diesel heater.
These Great Harbours have offshore sea legs as evidenced by the N-37 that cruised to Hawaii from Jacksonville and one that cruised to Bermuda from Jacksonville and then to Newport RI.
The flybridge is a great party place however is not good for docking as it has a center helm with no visibility of the stern or sides of the boat. This as opposed to the lower helm which affords the best visibility.
The flybridge radar arch and bimini increases air draft so must be dropped/lowered to clear some fixed bridges e.g. Western Erie Canal (15'), Champlain Canal and Chicago River 17'. The non fly bridge N-37s can just drop the mast however dropping the radar arch can be problematic if not engineered to drop. I always preferred a flybridge, however as I've aged I haven't used the upper helm underway nearly as much because of Dermo issues and becoming more in love with comfort, anti bugs, cold, heat, etc :).
Plenty of area for solar on either model.
Love the engine room, bosun locker shallow draft, big tankages, eases of handling, walk around decks, real redundancy of second motor and sea kindly handling nature.
This boat handles sea extremely well for it's size. Lou Codega the NA/Naval PE WEBB graduate MIT naval engineer masters graduate inked this "form stable" hull configuration and can explain it better than I. I only know it works. We have a former Krogen and Fleming owner who now owns an N-47 and will gladly state how his N-47 handles sea state better than the many other boats he has owned and doesn't require the complex potentially maintenace intensive active stabilizers. If ever in a mooring/anchorage area with many other boats and a wake comes through watch the various boats motions as to the degree they roll and how long(many oscillations) it takes for them to settle. We generally experience only one roll period before settling
In my N-37 cruising we have been in some real poor conditions (my stupidity) the boat did better than us.
The rounded and upturned stern provides great following sea handing as seas seem to just ride under the boat without broaching. That said, I want no part of any breaking seas as sometimes occur at the bar entrance to inlets. Those are dangerous for any boat unless surf rated.
The worst most uncomfortable sea state I been in was in Lake Michigan when for 8 hours we had extremely steep 6' cresting and breaking seas with occasional 8 ftr's from 3 simultaneous directions such that there was no heading that could moderate the seas. This resulted in a crazy violent corkscrew motion rolling to our maximum of 21 degrees port and starboard while pitching 11 degrees fore and aft. It was a hang on until into a refuge harbor. The boat handled it fine, nothing broken except my pride and almost my marriage. This was my fault a real stupid by me for thinking "it doesn't look that bad let's go"!!! That statement says it all. Bad doesn't belong in any sea state assessment.
Lou has told me these boats are potentially self righting given the low center of gravity with the positive buoyancy afforded by all the above rub rail, nida core, dyvinycel coring. this also make these boat unsinkable and this is not conjecture as there was one GH-37 burned to the waterline still floating after the fire was put out with flooding it then towed to a ramp for forensics as it became a homicide crime scene. These Great Harbour's are very stiff (resistant to rolling) with the hard chines and have a very low center of gravity. They behave similar to a catamaran (considering the 16' beam in a 37' waterline) however without the snap roll some cats exhibited in sharp steep beam seas nor any sensitivity to weight (laddening) and bridge web deck slap.
Note that all the Great Harbour trawler share the same exact hull design below the rub rail and configuration just that the 47' models have a 10' section added in the center. The greater windage of the GH pilot house models make them more difficult to handle in high winds and awkward to negoitate some types of locks, docks or picking up a mooring than the N's with the 360 degree walk around decks and visibility, however this doesn't stop the GH Pilothouse owners from cruising all areas. The GH pilot house model owners just adjust. There is no other boat that I'm aware of that offers the amount of stability, living accommodations, storage, tank capacities, equipment and systems access and cruising ability in this footprint.
Lou created this design drawing from commercial work boat hulls especially fishing boats requiring stable work platforms and large volumes in the hull for catch etc.. It is interest to me how similar our bottom is to that of the commercial tows which also have hard chines and upturned sterns with keel protected props.
 

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Too late to edit the previous post

The difference between displacement and planning.

it's impossible to define any hull as planing, semi-displacement, or full displacement just by it's shape, there are far too many variations possible.

Naval Architect's definitions of these hull types are centred around, A) intended (design) operating speed relative to length or displacement (Froude number). And B) The amount of Hydrodynamic and Hydrostatic pressure supporting the hull under way.

The Froude numbers are named for William Froude, a pioneering Naval Architect. There are two that concern us, the Length Froude Number, and the Volume Froude Number. These "numbers" are dimensionless, so they can be used to compare hulls of all sizes and speeds. The Length Froude Number uses speed in relation to at rest waterline length, and the Volume Froude Number uses speed in relation to at rest displacement.

FNL = V / (L x g)^0.5

V = Velocity in feet per second (knots x 1.6889)
L = Waterline length in ft.
g = Acceleration due to gravity (32.2)

So a 36' hull travelling at 7.5 knots will have a FNL of .37

FNV = V / (g x dis^1/3)^1/2

V = Velocity in feet per second (knots x 1.6889)
dis = Displacement in cubic feet (lbs / 64 in salt or 62 in fresh water)
g = Acceleration due to gravity (32.2)

So a 15,000 lb displacement boat travelling at 8 knots will have a FNV of .96

Displacement hulls operate at a FNV of 1.3 or less
Semi-Displacement hulls operate at FNVs of 1.0 to 3.0
Planing hulls operate at FNVs of 2.3 or more.

The above categories overlap because there are no precise points of differentiation. Where exactly might planing start? There are a number of definitions for this alone.

In a test tank the division of Hydrostatic and Hydrodynamic loads can be precisely measured and thus the precise point of transition (to semi-displacement or planing) defined. A Full Displacement hull is one said to be supported solely by Hydrostatic pressure. As a hull moves through the water it may be seen(with very precise measurement in a test tank) to sink slightly due to changes in pressure around the hull surface (wake, etc).

After sinking a bit at low speeds, as speed increases the hull will begin to rise, and some portion of hull weight (equal to displacement) will be supported by Hydrodynamic pressure (developed due to speed). This the semi-displacement and semi-planing region. As the hull rises a larger portion of it's weight is supported hydrodynamicly. When this Hydrodynamic pressure equals displacement, the hull could be described as planing.
 
Fly bridge not needed if you use some of that money to install a wireless Yacht controller unit. Have used one single handing my boat for a few years now makes docking and tight maneuvering a piece of cake. Lets you be where the action is and then you can step off and do lines while boat is still under your control. Cat's meow


Wasn't thinking about docking. In our case, the bridge is just better for avoiding all the crab pots... including those in the "Float Free" (not) channels.

But really, I only asked in this case because I thought somebody was shopping for a Loop boat and wondered (partly on his behalf) if some of the GH's with flybridges would be untenable...

-Chris
 
Hi all, it's been awhile since on the forum. As an 2007 flybridge N-37 owner and cruiser with 40,000 miles under the keel including three great loops and most of the western Rivers this is an interesting thread that is close to my heart. We were full time live aboards for most of that time but now have a dirt home in New Bern to winter in as we've been captured by our grandchildren in Raleigh, NC.

These are my opinions and experience.

A full displacement vessel moves through the water as opposed to on top or partially ontop of the water. It generally has a full shape and weight that precludes moving it thru the water any faster then the point at which it begins to they an climb it's bow wave.

At my 7knt cruise, my N-37 is level and runs very well at 7 knots generating almost no wake (the best metric for cruising as a displacement vessel). Getting me an overall fuel burn of approximately 2.3 gals per hour including the generator and diesel heater.

These Great Harbours have offshore sea legs as evidenced by the N-37 that cruised to Hawaii from Jacksonville and one that cruised to Bermuda from Jacksonville and then to Newport RI.

The flybridge is a great party place however is not good for docking as it has a center helm with no visibility of the stern or sides of the boat. This as opposed to the lower helm which affords the best visibility.

The flybridge radar arch and bimini increases air draft so must be dropped/lowered to clear some fixed bridges e.g. Western Erie Canal (15'), Champlain Canal and Chicago River 17'. The non fly bridge N-37s can just drop the mast however dropping the radar arch can be problematic if not engineered to drop. I always preferred a flybridge, however as I've aged I haven't used the upper helm underway nearly as much because of Dermo issues and becoming more in love with comfort, anti bugs, cold, heat, etc :).

Plenty of area for solar on either model.

Love the engine room, bosun locker shallow draft, big tankages, eases of handling, walk around decks, real redundancy of second motor and sea kindly handling nature.

This boat handles sea extremely well for it's size. Lou Codega the NA/Naval PE WEBB graduate MIT naval engineer masters graduate inked this "form stable" hull configuration and can explain it better than I. I only know it works. We have a former Krogen and Fleming owner who now owns an N-47 and will gladly state how his N-47 handles sea state better than the many other boats he has owned and doesn't require the complex potentially maintenace intensive active stabilizers. If ever in a mooring/anchorage area with many other boats and a wake comes through watch the various boats motions as to the degree they roll and how long(many oscillations) it takes for them to settle. We generally experience only one roll period before settling

In my N-37 cruising we have been in some real poor conditions (my stupidity) the boat did better than us.

The rounded and upturned stern provides great following sea handing as seas seem to just ride under the boat without broaching. That said, I want no part of any breaking seas as sometimes occur at the bar entrance to inlets. Those are dangerous for any boat unless surf rated.

The worst most uncomfortable sea state I been in was in Lake Michigan when for 8 hours we had extremely steep 6' cresting and breaking seas with occasional 8 ftr's from 3 simultaneous directions such that there was no heading that could moderate the seas. This resulted in a crazy violent corkscrew motion rolling to our maximum of 21 degrees port and starboard while pitching 11 degrees fore and aft. It was a hang on until into a refuge harbor. The boat handled it fine, nothing broken except my pride and almost my marriage. This was my fault a real stupid by me for thinking "it doesn't look that bad let's go"!!! That statement says it all. Bad doesn't belong in any sea state assessment.

Lou has told me these boats are potentially self righting given the low center of gravity with the positive buoyancy afforded by all the above rub rail, nida core, dyvinycel coring. this also make these boat unsinkable and this is not conjecture as there was one GH-37 burned to the waterline still floating after the fire was put out with flooding it then towed to a ramp for forensics as it became a homicide crime scene. These Great Harbour's are very stiff (resistant to rolling) with the hard chines and have a very low center of gravity. They behave similar to a catamaran (considering the 16' beam in a 37' waterline) however without the snap roll some cats exhibited in sharp steep beam seas nor any sensitivity to weight (laddening) and bridge web deck slap.

Note that all the Great Harbour trawler share the same exact hull design below the rub rail and configuration just that the 47' models have a 10' section added in the center. The greater windage of the GH pilot house models make them more difficult to handle in high winds and awkward to negoitate some types of locks, docks or picking up a mooring than the N's with the 360 degree walk around decks and visibility, however this doesn't stop the GH Pilothouse owners from cruising all areas. The GH pilot house model owners just adjust. There is no other boat that I'm aware of that offers the amount of stability, living accommodations, storage, tank capacities, equipment and systems access and cruising ability in this footprint.

Lou created this design drawing from commercial work boat hulls especially fishing boats requiring stable work platforms and large volumes in the hull for catch etc.. It is interest to me how similar our bottom is to that of the commercial tows which also have hard chines and upturned sterns with keel protected props.



Here is the best bottom picture I have of our GH47 taken pre-purchase pre-survey. You can see the same hull form as the N37 with the extra 10 foot. We displace 60,000lbs+ which adds to stability. Boats come by and think they are going to roll us and don't ...to their surprise and our comfort. We joke the rides is like a little cruise ship. :)

IMG_0600.JPG

Joe also talked about out low center of gravity. Here is a picture of the integrated fuel 900gal and 480gal, water 480gal and blackwater tank 320gal and how they are built into the hull. This puts the weight of these fluids as low as possible in the boat and all but eliminates the condensation issues you read about all the time in the forums. I have run 2000+ gallons of fuel through the Racors and have only seen maybe an ounce of water, and have not needed to change the fuel filters since 1/2014 (feel guilty about that but no indication they need to be replaced). The filter vacuum is still holding steady on the drag gauge on the filter and also the Maretron vacuum sensor.

IMG_1049.JPG
 

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As you guys have found, it's impossible to define any hull as planing, semi-displacement, or full displacement just by it's shape, there are far too many variations possible.

Naval Architects definitions of these hull types are centred around, A) intended (design) operating speed relative to length or displacement (Froude number). And B) The amount of Hydrodynamic and Hydrostatic pressure supporting the hull under way.

I'll add to this in a bit.

Maybe it would be better if recreational boaters classified boats by light medium or heavy for LOA and forget the FD-SD issue.
 
I think this would be classed as full displacement.:whistling:
I don't see anything that hints at even SD:lol:

Ted
 

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Chris (ranger42c)
My comment on the air draft of the GH47 with a fly bridge is based on the 19'1" bridge on the Calmet canal. My GH47 had a railing on the roof that made us over 18' air draft. In 2015, I cut the railing and lowered it by 15". We wanted to do the Lake Champlain and Chicago routes. My boat does not have a flybridge. In many anchorages I sure wish it did.
I traveled with a GH47-FB (flybridge) last year and there were several bridges on the ICW that they had to request an opening, and we were able to lower our mast and slide under the bridge.
 
Ted fully in agreement!

A very steep quarter beam buttock angle probably produces a bit of a haystack like following wake. I'd love to see it.

Highly raked prop and .. what's this? .. no rudder?
 
I could not agree with you more there Norm on all that space and real beds on those GH models!!

I thought you had added the tv.



Your plans sound awesome.

I really wish I could wrap my head around the engine room in the GH. Those in the N just seem right. Lol



Yes sir those inland waters and rivers are a joy and beauty to behold and the folks along the way can be a true joy to meet.

Ahhh but then there is all that Fishen to be done.

Looking forward to hearing about your adventures.

Jim



Jim when we were looking for our boat we chartered an N37 Semper Fi from Ken Fickett and cruised up the St Johns River from Green Cove Springs and loved it (Flybridge version) and then Chartered his N47 Spoonbill (also with a flybridge) and cruised again up the St Johns to the 0MM and loved it even more! (I have a great video segment Ill get you).

The standup engine rooms are so easy with a 16 foot beam... I would have Bose speakers of some kind in there....:)
 
Here's the way I see it. The conundrum comes down to the number of places each of you have to escape the company of the other (something that may become necessary when in such close quarters for extended periods).

I'd say how many people would be on board at various times is a bit of a factor too.
 
Jim when we were looking for our boat we chartered an N37 Semper Fi from Ken Fickett and cruised up the St Johns River from Green Cove Springs and loved it (Flybridge version) and then Chartered his N47 Spoonbill (also with a flybridge) and cruised again up the St Johns to the 0MM and loved it even more! (I have a great video segment Ill get you).

The standup engine rooms are so easy with a 16 foot beam... I would have Bose speakers of some kind in there....:)

Norman that would be awesome to get the video. If you are talking about the time laps one, then I have it.
Yes sir I like the boss idea for sure.
 
Hi all, it's been awhile since on the forum. As an 2007 flybridge N-37 owner and cruiser with 40,000 miles under the keel including three great loops and most of the western Rivers this is an interesting thread that is close to my heart. We were full time live aboards for most of that time.

Thank you Joe for taking the time to post such a thorough reply and answering so many different questions.
Hoping you get some more cruise time this year.
Jim
 
Hi Eric,
Look hard, the rudder is there, just edge on to the camera.
Hardly any wake at 7 1/2 knots

Ted
 
As you guys have found, it's impossible to define any hull as planing, semi-displacement, or full displacement just by it's shape, there are far too many variations possible.

Naval Architects definitions of these hull types are centred around, A) intended (design) operating speed relative to length or displacement (Froude number). And B) The amount of Hydrodynamic and Hydrostatic pressure supporting the hull under way.

I'll add to this in a bit.
(Interpret):banghead::whistling:
 
Too late to edit the previous post

The difference between displacement and planning.

it's impossible to define any hull as planing, semi-displacement, or full displacement just by it's shape, there are far too many variations possible.

Naval Architect's definitions of these hull types are centred around, A) intended (design) operating speed relative to length or displacement (Froude number). And B) The amount of Hydrodynamic and Hydrostatic pressure supporting the hull under way.

V = Velocity in feet per second (knots x 1.6889)
dis = Displacement in cubic feet (lbs / 64 in salt or 62 in fresh water)
g = Acceleration due to gravity (32.2)

So a 15,000 lb displacement boat travelling at 8 knots will have a FNV of .96

Displacement hulls operate at a FNV of 1.3 or less
Semi-Displacement hulls operate at FNVs of 1.0 to 3.0
Planing hulls operate at FNVs of 2.3 or more.

Thanks, Tad, for providing (as usual) something beyond conjecture.

But I'm sitting here regretting all those naps I took in math classes. Is the ^ symbol referencing an exponential?
 
TAD,
Thanks much for the reminder that I need to address the next weak link in my hull dynamics understanding. Just never got around to figuring out the Forde functions.

And I'm glad you made it clear the boats in-between types are impossible to classify. I got along for awhile w my submerged transom theory quite some time ago but seeing the wonderful Seaton and Neville FD boats w a very noticeable amount of transom submerged I had to move on to other variables.

Another thing that intrigues me is the effect of prismatic coefficient (PC) on speed assuming there was plenty of power. A boat w a very low PC would seem (to me) to be not as fast as one w a very high PC (like a Great Lakes ore boat (but not that high)). I would think the high PC boat would require more power but be capable of more useable speed. Give my W30 a slack stern and blow it up to 36' and compare it to the high PC W36. What think?
 
Thanks, Tad, for providing (as usual) something beyond conjecture.

But I'm sitting here regretting all those naps I took in math classes. Is the ^ symbol referencing an exponential?

Yes the " ^ " (called a caret) signifies exponent.
 
TAD,

Another thing that intrigues me is the effect of prismatic coefficient (PC) on speed assuming there was plenty of power. A boat w a very low PC would seem (to me) to be not as fast as one w a very high PC (like a Great Lakes ore boat (but not that high)). I would think the high PC boat would require more power but be capable of more useable speed. Give my W30 a slack stern and blow it up to 36' and compare it to the high PC W36. What think?

I feel that, after length, displacement, beam, and draft, the Prismatic Coefficient (PC) is the most important form factor in hull design. For every boat hull there is a correct(lowest resistance) PC for each Froude Number or Speed/Length ratio, but this also varies with Displacement/Length ratio and with individual shapes.

PC = Volume Displacement/( L x a)

L = length waterline.
a = Area in sq ft of largest or midship section.

Prismatic Coefficient is a measure of fineness (or fullness) of the ends of a hull. It's been argued that there should be separate PC's for the forward and aft sections of a hull. Generally lower PC's, (.52-.56) are full displacement hulls, the fine ends are to keep wavemaking to a minimum at the low speed these hulls operate at.

Typical cruising sailboat hulls have PC’s in the .54-55 range, but older style double-enders will be closer to .52. Planing powerboats will be .6-.70 or higher. Full Displacement Powerboats will be in the .55- .6 range. My Yellow Cedar and Ironbark designs, both full displacement hulls one double-ended and the other with a transom, have PC’s of around 0.59.

Higher Prismatic Coefficients, indicating fuller ends and smaller midships sections, show how the hull volume has been spread out along the waterline. This creates a hull more inclined to lift with speed, and full after sections help prevent a hull from squatting. So higher prismatics show higher potential speed, but the form must be correct (as must the center of buoyancy), and the power must be there to attain that speed.

It’s been reported that at a Speed/Length ratio of 1.1, a hull with a CP of 0.7 will have up to three times the resistance of one with a CP of 0.5. These days I find that if I shape a hull (visually) to the target displacement and length, the CP will be quite close to my ideal. Then I fine tune the ends to adjust CP without changing the form significantly.



CPex.jpg


This shows how idea CP changes with beam/length at low speed and Displacement/Length at high speed.
Prismatics.jpg
 
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All this math and such is good but then some times you just have to trust the designer and builder and grasp you are either gonna push through the water or slightly rise up some or truly rise up and get up and go.
:whistling:
 
All this math and such is good but then some times you just have to trust the designer and builder and grasp you are either gonna push through the water or slightly rise up some or truly rise up and get up and go.
:whistling:

I prefer to deal in simply what it is. It's a boat that cruises at 7 knots on 2 gph and WOT is 9 knots at 5 gph or it cruises at 2000 rpm, 37 knots, 105 gph or whatever the boat actually does. It handles 6-8' seas comfortably or it will make everyone on board throw up. Each boat is different and rather than looking at it's classification, I look at it and what other similar boats do.
 
I prefer each boat is different and rather than looking at it's classification, I look at it and what other similar boats do.


:thumb:

Al-Ketchikan
 
Hi Eric,
Look hard, the rudder is there, just edge on to the camera.
Hardly any wake at 7 1/2 knots

Ted
Ted nice small wake. Just saying my 48 SD with 46+LWL will do the same or better at 7.5-8K which is slightly more than one knot under hull speed.
 

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Yep, your boat looks good.
Mine is 49 or 50' lwl, displacing 150,000 lbs.
I don't want to think of the wake or fuel burn at
higher speeds.

Ted
 
Hey guys your boats have similar WLL but look at your displacement and buttock lines ... the angle of the bottom aft as seen in Ted's pic on post # 161. (top of page).

Ted's FD boat probably weighs 4 or five times your SD (close to planing) hulled boat. All the factors are players in the classification of hulls. But as Tad says many are impossible to classify. eyeshulman's boat is SD but it may have a straight run aft so is not in the middle ofthe SD range. So Ted's boat is at the left end of FD and eyeshulman's boat is at the right end of SD. So they are considerably more different than SD and FD.

As always just an opinion. What's yours?

Oh yes I see the rudder Ted. Looks a bit bent but straight enough to do the deed I'm sure.

Now I've got to figure out how to copy Tad's post have it handy.
 
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